The Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (Ecta)

[JayTheVapingGuy]

Matt,

what you're forgetting is that noone is stopping any other vendor from joining ECTA... This isn't a small group of exclusive businesses that are trying to monopolize the industry... this isn't

again, i stand firm on the topic, if you cannot be bothered to put your business behind an organization that is trying to regulate and legitimize the industry... don't come looking for my dollars...

frankly, why should any business benefit from the work and funds that are spent by the ECTA members when they stand idly by and choose not to put their money where their mouth is...

so, again, Matt, i disagree with you... any business that is in existance now and that chooses not to join ECTA, will likely not succeed simply on the basis that they will not get near the business... and that is how i believe it should be... and i do believe that many other consumers will agree... some will not, and those who do not are free to buy from whomever they choose...

I myself have chosen to stand behind ECTA...

 

[MattB]

Well, i dont see ECTA actually inviting other vendors to join yet ... do you? Nor have i seen them publicize any norms to follow as of yet, have you?

So why bring the big ban hammer down on the other vendors who arent part of them yet?

Hell, it took you whinning just to get a few bits and tads out of what's going on behind closed doors out of Kat. I know these things take time, but if others are showing interest, and want to join the group and get in on the discussions ... why arent ECTA getting them in the loop?

Like i said, until the plan of action is officially rolled out, you cant count on other vendors playing by their rules. So it isnt fair that you rule them out simply because they arent in the "in crowd".

 

[JayTheVapingGuy]

Matt,

I'm not going to let this devolve to arguing... I'll make a few final comments then walk from the discussion

Yes, they have invited businesses to be involved, repeatedly...

we don't know any of the norms but i do know that if a company wants to be involved, they can contact ECTA and find out what the "norms" are... the regular consumer will not and i now understand, cannot be told many of the things at this stage... HC would jump on anything and everything... i guarantee that they have at least one person who is detailed to follow this subforum to find slips and info that they can use against vendors and suppliers...

so, yeah, i can expect a vendor, once the list of membervendors is released, to play by the rules, and if they choose not to... that is their decision... it is not a monopoly that only ECTA members can play, but when you have the choice of a regulated, safer industry and a backdoor business that doesn't wanna play by anyones rules... i'll take the regulated industry every single time...

 

[JayTheVapingGuy]

and just another quick note... further to what i wrote above...

yes, the government, HC and other organizations/agencies, can and do use software that tracks down keywords to help them find what they want... doing so on a government computer is something that they are very clear about... we have no expectation of privacy from the government intrusion while at work... if i choose to open personal emails at work, I do so at my own risk...

using the same software on an open forum is neither illegal or unethical... despite any other actions that HC takes that are illegal.

I work for DND and i have a background in IT Security...

 

[MattB]

Has it ever crossed your mind that not every vendor in Canada has a ECF account? Or that not every vendor out there know about this ECTA group?

You seem awfully quick to dismiss anyone not following this group.

And again, you are following and supporting the 1st official group to take action vs the HC problem we all face blindly without even knowing what it is they plan on doing about it. Like you said before, you'll support them until another group goes along to better reflect your ideals and thoughts.

How can you support a group when you have no idea what they are all about?

I'm not trying to say ECTA is a bad thing ... but to dismiss anyone not participating RIGHT NOW ... BEFORE they actually roll out ANYTHING to the public ... thats just stupid.

My

 

[JayTheVapingGuy]

Aha MattB,

Therein lies the rub... I am not dismissing anyone not participating right now... simply because there is no list right now to make any such decisions upon.

we don't know who is a member of ECTA and until the list is published, I am treating all vendors as potential ECTA members.

once that list is published, which i suspect will not be in the next few weeks, more likely it will be late spring or summer before they finish their legwork, i will look at who is involved and who is not... those who are not involved, and who had reasonable access to knowing about ECTA, i will pull my support from.

While I agree that there are some companies who are not registered here at ECF, there are precious few that are not otherwize connected in some way to the community... this community being so small, i can virtually guarantee that there are precious few, if any, who have not already been given the chance, personally, to be involved. between here and Facebook and G+ I have in my personal file, a list of just about every business out there, along with, for the most part, a fairly up to date listing of what they carry.

while the average person may not have this, as an Activist, an Advocate for vaping, and as a vaping Television Personality, i feel that it is my duty to be as aware of who is out there as i can be... i do spend time every week updating myself as best as i can from the various sources.

That said, if someone were to not be involved once the list is published, i would email them, if they were previously a vendor of choice for me, and ask them why they are not a member of ECTA and give them opportunity to explain why they are not currently a member... they may still be in the process of compliance with ECTA regulation and are expecting to be certified shortly...

I am not blindly dismissing any company or organization... I know more than the average person does, i'll admit. I've been given confidences and information from various sources that the average consumer will not see any time soon, and possibly ever.

Don't confuse my frustration and request for information about Current Activities with a lack of knowledge of what the end goal is... I know what the end goal is... my questions are related to how those goals are realistically going to be achieved and what is happening now to make them achievable.

 

[Switched]

Some pretty bold statements there Jay. OTOH I as a vendor will not be signing any blank checks any time soon, without reading the fine print first.

BTW whether at work or at home, BB knows what your e-mails contain. As an IT individual you should know this, why do you think we keep updating our security patches - virus protection and encryption???

 

[JayTheVapingGuy]

Some pretty bold statements there Jay. OTOH I as a vendor will not be signing any blank checks any time soon, without reading the fine print first.

BTW whether at work or at home, BB knows what your e-mails contain. As an IT individual you should know this, why do you think we keep updating our security patches - virus protection and encryption???

Switcher,

Anyone who merely signs a blank cheque and passes it over to an Association without knowing where, how and for what purposes it is going is, IMHO, a fool... i would not expect anyone to blindly sign up to an organization without knowing more... How that dance revolves between ECTA and vendor vis a vis "tell me what I need to know and I will pay" vs "pay and we'll tell you what you want to know" is out of my hands or knowledge, but I'm sure that between the Association and the Vendors, they'll figure out a way to do it so that everyone is satisfied.

As for the email thing. Yeah, the laws include sufficient grey area to allow BB to read and act on any email sent or recieved within Canada. The only difference between home and work is that at work they openly express that there is no expectation of privacy and there are rules governing the personal use of government IT assets.

as for the information i have... I believe i have fairly up to date information on the gross majority of E-cig vendors in Canada... i cannot guarantee that it is 100% accurate nor can i guarantee that i have all of them... I do believe that the majority of the businesses out there are connected to the community and would be suprized to find a business that exists for more than a few months online without developing a connection to the community. Obviously there are vendors who are offline and off the grid entirely (local purchase only between friends and friends of friends) but we cannot track them all down... nor can one be expected to know all of those.

 

[Switched]

ECTA is still in the womb and is a long way from the birth canal. My reservations stem from 2 years of promises and innuendo so I do IMHO have the right to these reservations ect... and I am not going on Facebook to discuss it either.

One thing that really gets my knickers in a twist "I am not here to save lives" I am here to show folks in the community who are interested in kicking the habit, of alternatives available. I will take the time to show, educate and promote, but I am not on a mission perse - that phrase IMHO is as stale and unpalatable as "think of the children".

 

[JayTheVapingGuy]

ECTA is still in the womb and is a long way from the birth canal. My reservations stem from 2 years of promises and innuendo so I do IMHO have the right to these reservations ect... and I am not going on Facebook to discuss it either.

I suspect that you are quite right about that... i did some basic reading on what it takes to become a Trade Association, and it is not a light or quick procedure... I also agree that we've been given many promises and statements that have failed to come to fruition... i think the difference between us is that i've not yet become jaded by the prospect... i do still think this is feasable and i have faith that it will come to pass...

One thing that really gets my knickers in a twist "I am not here to save lives" I am here to show folks in the community who are interested in kicking the habit, of alternatives available. I will take the time to show, educate and promote, but I am not on a mission perse - that phrase IMHO is as stale and unpalatable as "think of the children".

i don't think anyone should ever feel that they're "on a mission" if they don't wish to undertake such a thing... I myself do wish to do so... I am not here to force or shame anyone into it, but i do feel that its my honour and responsibility to let as many of my friends and family know what vaping has done to save my life... but thats my choice... i chose to become an Advocate and Activist with full knowlege.

 

[JayTheVapingGuy]

one further thing to my last statement

I believe in the Liberation Treatment... hate racism and want to see women treated equally....

I do not go capaigning on behalf of MS patients to get the government to allow it as a viable expense.

I do not go around to Anti-Racism events to assist in reconciliation efforts, nor do i go door to door to appologize for those crimes that others of my skin colour have committed...

I do however serve in a large capacity as the Senior Volunteer for the fundraising committee for a Womens Shelter and in connection to that i have been named Co-Chairperson in their next and largest fundraiser to date...

the point of this is, we all have the right to support and believe in any given cause and to provide as much or as little support or assistance to that cause we choose...

noone should feel bigger or smaller for their decisions in how to or if to support a cause...

you can choose to be quiet and just be an example to smokers

You can choose to be out there and talk to your friends in depth...

You can choose to be out there and talk to strangers in depth...

you can choose to step up more and more...

each level is valid and no less praiseworthy than the next.

 

[Switched]

Jay,

Ya missed the entire gist of my statement

 

[JayTheVapingGuy]

lol...

Does that suprise you?? theres a reason my hair spikes up and away from my face... that damned airplane skirts my forehead daily!! "NEEEEEEeEeeeeooooooWWWW!!!"

J

 

[kanadiankat]

There appears to be quite a bit of confusion over what ECTA is and when it was started.

I’m not sure where the “2 years” comes from. The name and concept of ECTA was only hammered out this last summer.

Here is the ECTA Timeline - followed by an update

APRIL 2011
Following several HC letters that intimidated a number of businesses into closing or changing – a small group of vendors created a closed forum to discuss different ways we could pool our resources and fight back. We contacted lawyers and learned that legal action (which would be incredibly expensive), if successful, would be temporary. The heart of ecig issues stem from the lack of a regulatory framework.

MAY 2011
So we tossed a few questions to ECITA in the UK to see how they managed to succeed there. The ECITA management team worked with us to draw up a proposal to assist us in creating ECTA for Canada to accomplish the same thing here, in the same way.

THE PROPOSAL required 10 vendors to make a significant financial contribution to establish ECTA and act as its Board, financing the organization and providing leadership. Once the Board is established the groundwork begins. When the essentials are in place and moving forward – all other retailers are encouraged to join, become compliant with a regulatory framework (on eliquid and hardware) and recognized as ECTA approved. This requires a fee – but not the initial large contribution made by the founders. Meanwhile ECTA continues to work on legal and governmental issues until they are fully resolved. After this - ECTA continues to provide regulatory work and begins offering other services and advantages to participating businesses.

JUNE 2011 – SEPT 2011
Using assistance from an ECF volunteer and 2 vendors – the proposal was circulated to every known full time business – online and offline – using lists compiled by reviewers and activists. Initially, most vendors either didn’t have the funds to finance ECTA or were not interested. There were dozens of follow up emails and phone calls - tallying hundreds of hours of volunteer work. We needed 10 founding members to establish a board of directors. By September the group was still too small to start.

NOV 2011
A total of 6 vendors decided to go ahead and start up – hoping that others would join as soon as the organization was officially born. It worked. ECTA has reached a compliment of 10 Directors with the possibile need to create two additional spots.

JANUARY 2012
On of ECTA's Board members had his business closed by authorities. This information is very new and the Board has not been able to address the issue yet, though we will in the coming weeks. Discussions and decisions regarding this situation will not be available to the public. The business in question retains the right to release what they are legally able to and willing to release.



UPDATE
Since the beginning of December – the Board of Directors elected an interim Executive, hired a Management firm who are providing a legal research team and a chemist, approved a part time administrator who will begin working with us shortly, and began work on a web-based information portal that will soon be open to the general public.

Legal research began at the end of December and the Board has discussed some of the results and how we will go forward with them.

In March the first part of compliance will be enacted and the current directors will be the guinea pigs. Should we succeed in forming a basic regulatory framework at that time – we will open ECTA for all vendors to participate in and assist them in becoming compliant. If we run into issues – we will resolve them before asking other retailers to participate. That’s just basic common sense.


What ECTA is NOT
ECTA is not a secret organization of people whispering in the corner. It’s not unusual for the names of Board members to be held back while an organization is in its initial building phase. This is for legal reasons alone. ECTA Board members can announce themselves on this forum only right now so that rumours and misinformation can be prevented. It keeps everything as transparent as we can keep it right now. MORE WILL COME.

ECTA is not a social action group. CASAA is. ECTA is a business-led organization committed to establishing a legal, regulatory framework for electronic cigarettes as a “harm reduction technology” to change the current status of the industry in Canada.

How does this help YOU the customer?
1) With legal status – you will have full access to electronic cigarettes and supplies within Canada. There is no way to guarantee that individual imports will be permitted – as there is no way to control how Canadian regulations will be accepted elsewhere, or if external products will be permitted by authorities – once regulations are in place.
2) Every ECTA approved business will be in compliance with regulations set by Federal and provincial laws and additional regulations set specifically for the industry - on Hardware, eliquid with and without nic, advertising and product claims. These businesses will be assisted in becoming compliant and then audited for ongoing assurance.
3) Compliance will cover hardware, eliquid and literature as well as claims and advertising. So you know that you are getting what you ordered and that every possible step to ensure safety has been taken.

In short – there will be standards and you, the customer, will beable to know who is keeping those standards.

Finally – what about current businesses facing problems with intimidation and threats?
For the next couple months, ECTA is going forward on a specific time line. If you are a business and you are receiving threatening letters or other forms of intimidation from officials - please PM me. I will pass your information to the Board who will share whatever can be shared to assist you in getting through this. All such information will be kept entirely confidential.

I hope this gives some clarity.

 

[Switched]

In all honesty, was that so difficult You didn't divulge anything but laid out an interesting framework. This is exactly the type of feedback that folks want to hear.

 

[kanadiankat]

In all honesty, was that so difficult You didn't divulge anything but laid out an interesting framework. This is exactly the type of feedback that folks want to hear.

My dear polar bear - you know I luv ya .... some of that info only came available following last night's meeting - and some if it exists already further back in the thread and is just expanded here.

I never mean to keep anyone in the dark - especially polar bears (unless of course I'm stuck on an ice shelf in the arctic and said polar bear is hungry...)

 

[JayTheVapingGuy]

BAHAHAHA... i'd keep the big bear in the dark too if he was hungry!... i'm too fatty and juicy...

 

[Ayce]

Good info, Kat. As a user, it's good to see progress is being made.

(Now for the "nit picking" portion of the program.

Shouldn't the year for January be 2012?)

We now return to the regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Cokeybill]

Thanks kat for the update. And thanks to the posters! This forum is what all of us here need, info and discussion on what is happening and what is planned for the future of vaping in Canada. Everyone that vapes should in some way or another find a way to get the message out that ECTA is in our best interests. Allowing HC to make decisions on the future of vaping will not be to our advantage...ECTA will. And CASAA will assist in getting the word out so those that are mislead, may have informative information to be educated on vaping in general.

 

[sabyrock]

ECTA is now on Facebook, come and join us.
the new web site is coming some, logo is done and thing are on the way.

Log in | Facebook