The EU's 4mg proposition
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Interesting, I can't watch the video with audio cause I'm at work but I'm assuming the FDA has proposed to Europe that nic juice will be legally available at a max of 4mg? If I could get a quick recap that would be great... Thanks for the info
Thanks for the video Mike - very interesting.
I'm only part way through the video, but yes .. it's a proposal to limit e-liquid to 4 mg basically, with a health warning and anything above that would require regulation as medicinal products - which would take years.
Here's a link to the document in the video on a blog; Velvet Glove, Iron Fist: EU wants to stamp out e-cigarettes
I'm only part way through the video, but yes .. it's a proposal to limit e-liquid to 4 mg basically, with a health warning and anything above that would require regulation as medicinal products - which would take years.
Here's a link to the document in the video on a blog; Velvet Glove, Iron Fist: EU wants to stamp out e-cigarettes
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this makes me laugh 4mg? e cig will always be a black market until tobacco companies decide to tell the goverment they will sell them that is the only way anything will happen. aside from that everyone is wasting they time with all the organization and association tobacco and pharma control the governent when it come to nicotine, that is fact.
4mg would be a pretty sneaky thing to do. Enough to completely decimate the e-cig industry but say "Well, we're letting you continue!". It keeps the cigarette companies happy because they get back customers and then inevitably come out with their overpriced versions of e-cigs that are fully government tested and approved.
You know though, in some ways I understand where the tobacco companies are coming from. They jump through all the government hoops and I'm sure it costs them a lot of money to do that. They aren't allowed to advertise anymore and are losing customers (in more ways than one...). And then comes in this completely unregulated e-cig industry that's essentially competing with them in an unfair fashion. That probably isn't a popular thing to say on here but it's true. I'm sure they chose to overlook it for a while to see if it failed or not but now that it's affecting their bottom line, you'll see more and more of these attacks.
I don't even want to know what a black market e-liquid scene looks like. Things all out in the open where we can talk about them is good. If things go all clandestine I can see some seriously shady players getting involved and safety/quality being compromised.
You know though, in some ways I understand where the tobacco companies are coming from. They jump through all the government hoops and I'm sure it costs them a lot of money to do that. They aren't allowed to advertise anymore and are losing customers (in more ways than one...). And then comes in this completely unregulated e-cig industry that's essentially competing with them in an unfair fashion. That probably isn't a popular thing to say on here but it's true. I'm sure they chose to overlook it for a while to see if it failed or not but now that it's affecting their bottom line, you'll see more and more of these attacks.
I don't even want to know what a black market e-liquid scene looks like. Things all out in the open where we can talk about them is good. If things go all clandestine I can see some seriously shady players getting involved and safety/quality being compromised.
Well, 4 mg is better than no mg. This is a crock anyways. Such action by any government will not stop a ecig black market nor will it fully hinder our purchases from China. I wish they would just leave us alone and let us be as is. So far, all things related to ecigs are okay, we don't need government regulation ,,, all that means is taxation.
When you think about this .... HC does everything to try and stop the ecig (the nic component anyways) but they sure (as in the Feds) don't have any problem with the vendors submitting the GST portion of the sale. Folks this is all about government revenue and nothing else.
Further, until the Feds decide that there is huge revenue (as in taxation) from ecigs you won't see any changes to the current HC ruling nor anything brought up about it in the House of Commons.
Of course I could be wrong.
Further, until the Feds decide that there is huge revenue (as in taxation) from ecigs you won't see any changes to the current HC ruling nor anything brought up about it in the House of Commons.
Of course I could be wrong.
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I honestly believe that none of these health organizations have a clue what to do with the electronic cigarette. The technology, low price and vastly growing business that has exploded(no pun intended here), have these government sob's in a state of deseret. They just don't know what to do. Like HC's pathetic attemp, "we'll just send out an advisory untill the govenments can introduce legislation" Instead of wasting time and money by having HC inspectors working at customs clearing areas, ripping apart our shipments - they should be reading up on, what the ecig industry has to say & invite Ecta/Cassa or whoever to sit down & negotiate whatever concerns their are. 4mg? Where in the hell, did they pull that number from? I have never seen 4mg as a measurement of nicotene. Being a low nic, vaper, I sometimes buy 6mg when 8mg isn't offered but 4mg? Come on! Did they mean 4% or 40mg?
I think that they decided on that value as I do believe that the Nicorette inhaler is in the range 4 - 6 mg.
They don't know what to do because there really is nothing to do. Leave it as it is. I think the majority on ECF, including vendors, would agree.
If you review the history of ecigs, I would say that it is one of very few products on the market that has survived, prospered and done quite well without any type of extreme government regulation.
The other thing people tend to forget is that just because a product/industry is regulated does not mean the product is safer.
How is regulation going to ensure that I get a safer product than what I get now? I have been vaping for 3 + years and nothing bad has happened.
One last thought: (this point is a bit off topic for this thread) For all of you who support regulation --- if this does happen we are going to pay a very high price for the nic and the devices. It will be taxed in the order of the so called sin products (booze & tobacco). Further, the tax will always go up every January.
They don't know what to do because there really is nothing to do. Leave it as it is. I think the majority on ECF, including vendors, would agree.
If you review the history of ecigs, I would say that it is one of very few products on the market that has survived, prospered and done quite well without any type of extreme government regulation.
The other thing people tend to forget is that just because a product/industry is regulated does not mean the product is safer.
How is regulation going to ensure that I get a safer product than what I get now? I have been vaping for 3 + years and nothing bad has happened.
One last thought: (this point is a bit off topic for this thread) For all of you who support regulation --- if this does happen we are going to pay a very high price for the nic and the devices. It will be taxed in the order of the so called sin products (booze & tobacco). Further, the tax will always go up every January.
While it would be nice to have them legalized (legitimized?), sometimes I wonder if we should all just keep quiet, stop pushing the buttons and stick with the status quo. After all, the status quo seems to be working out just fine.
The nicorette inhaler is 4 mg per cartridge, however that is supposed to last for 20 minutes, which is a lot different than 4 mg/ml. I wondered if that's where the number came from too, but I'd guess it's just an arbitrary thing.
They say essentially what froghammer said in the video.
I'd guess either big pharma or a tobacco company is lobbying for this change and it IS sneaky, because it appears it's relatively unregulated and for the general non-nicotine consuming population they can even claim "safe levels" of nicotine are allowed. However that's essentially too low of a nicotine level for anyone and it seems like an attempt to control or at least suppress the market until such time that either a pharmaceutical company or cigarette company can come in with enough money to get authorization to sell higher nicotine products and control the market.
They say essentially what froghammer said in the video.
I'd guess either big pharma or a tobacco company is lobbying for this change and it IS sneaky, because it appears it's relatively unregulated and for the general non-nicotine consuming population they can even claim "safe levels" of nicotine are allowed. However that's essentially too low of a nicotine level for anyone and it seems like an attempt to control or at least suppress the market until such time that either a pharmaceutical company or cigarette company can come in with enough money to get authorization to sell higher nicotine products and control the market.
Ah! but the nicorette inhaler is 4-6mg PER DOSE.... not per milliliter of the "stuff" in it. I see no reason juices need to adhere to a lesser nic standard than the inhaler.
(And just for the curious..... I worked it out. Based on 24mg/ml juice, with 20 drops per mil and only 2 puffs per drop, you can have 6.67 puffs to reach 4mg. At 12mg juice, it takes 13 puffs to get 4mg. Multiply the puff count by 1.5 if you get 3 puffs per drop. I was being conservative.)
There was a person once upon a time here on ECF that was investigating the actual nic content that we get from ecigs. Good stuff and very interesting reading. I can't recall the ecf member handle but if you are so inclined do a search on this topic.
I think your calculations are accurate however what we really need to know is how much nic is absorbed, per dose, by the blood stream.
Well the limit right now in Canada is 0 mg, this would be a step up from that I guess, but would have no practical value really. I guess it's OK to smoke your brains out and get a ton more nic but just don't try that with an e cig son 
No one should care about any of this stuff anyway, as long as they don't get rid of Canada Post
No one should care about any of this stuff anyway, as long as they don't get rid of Canada Post 
Actually, the number of drops per ml depends on the viscosity of the liquid. For pure PG it's closer to around 30 drops/ml; fewer for VG. (Higher viscosity = higher surface tension = larger drops.) But for me, at my vape pace and doing a quick back-of-the-hand calculation, 1ml will last me about 3 hours minimum. I vape 12mg. So for me, taking an average puff every, say, 3 minutes on average (accounting for breaks where I'm not vaping, like eating or something) that's 20 puffs an hour, 60 puffs to the ml at minimum, which works out to 0.2mg/puff. If an inhaled dosage unit is to be roughly equivalent to a Nicorette inhaler cartridge, which is supposed to last about 20 minutes, then that's roughly 1.4mg in that time frame, well below the EU's proposal if they're sticking with the "per dosage unit" doctrine -- and it would be quite unreasonable for 1ml to be considered a dosage unit.
Then again, this is politics. No one would ever accuse politicians of being reasonable.
Then again, this is politics. No one would ever accuse politicians of being reasonable.
nice calculations, mindfield. I used 20 as being the lowest possible number of drops I can imagine getting out of a mil of juice. But I totally agree, in my own experience, 20 drops is never equal to a mil in practicum.
And yes, they can't reasonably state that a mil is a dosage unit. But as you say, when did "reasonable" become a factor in governing bureaucratic decision-making? *smirk*
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