the lesser of 2 evils

[Skinr1]

Well, aren't you just a ray of sunshine, OP. I would submit that the premise of your question is seriously flawed, and not because vaping is obviously the lesser of two evils, but how you did not cite any sources or authority for your premise, mentioning, at best, weak, anecdotal evidence that was biased by your observation in the development of your premise. The facts are that vaping IS a do less harm therapy that has successfully helped more smokers quit smoking than any other method every created. It is approximately two magnitudes less harmful than smoking (100 times less harmful). I refer you to CASAA for this authority and cite CASAA as the reference. Evil has nothing to do with any of it. This is about harm reduction, and the evidence is on our side.

Since both my Mother and younger sister both died of lung cancer due to their heavy smoking, I figured I would be next, or certainly in line for that horrible conclusion, and had seriously tried quitting 18 times. vaping was the 18th time, and the only one that worked. I would say that anything that gets you off smoking, except perhaps chantrix, is a step in the right direction, and far less harmful than the combustion of an analog. 4,000 chemicals in smoke, over 100 known carcinogens, over 100 chemicals in cigarettes designed to increase the uptake of nicotine or addiction. BT will have it comeuppance some day. TG for vaping.

I wanted to stop in real quick and post a response to this . then back to work .
Bill , are you finished ? did you get it all out sir ?
what you don't seem to be catching while your going out of your way to ram information down my throat and preaching at me is , which is certainly how its being put out there , what your referring to as perhaps a great help to others is causing me pain and discomfort ok . im not saying i know that for sure until I go see the ENT on tues hes the pro not me and im sure he knows more then you or I , but im pretty sure theres an association of some kind nothing is perfect . plus the nice man at the vape shop that is pretty knowledgable about vaping seems to have his own ideas of the connection possibilities .also it has become more discouraging and certainly skeptical when I wanted it to work and its not . now it seems you are making it sound like vaping is for everyone and its not in anyway .what works great for you maybe a nightmare for some one else ,
what I see is another person slamming me for the simple reason of disagreement that what is working great for you isn't working great for me and since I personally find a problem with the fact that im not fond of the effects im getting again from what works great for you
you don't like it because im making it known what im going through .
its as if or your giving off the impression that your trying to get me to hide whats happening to me because im trying this or something .and its not working . and you don't like it .
if you really wanna help people try stepping up with encouraging words information and helpful suggestions , not insults , preaching
and ramming information down peoples throats .
reading your post kinda reminded me of those high Dollar pretty boy preachers on sunday morn TV .
is that how your an advocate of vaping sir ?
by insulting those that don't know as much as you , spitting at them . ramming your info down their throats in an aggressive non positive fashion . because if it is then perhaps the CASAA needs a new spokes person ..... because sir you are far to aggressive in your method of
approach of what your trying to defend and instead of trying to educate your trying to harm .

have a great day all .

 

[SteelerFan]

been off the stinkies for 78 days, have saved over $200 so far, i can breathe and smell and taste!! havent woke up in the middle of the night with a 2 hr coughing fit in over 2 months, running with my dogs more and i feel fantastic...all thanks to the day i said to h*ll with it and bought a disposable blu from the gas station....havent looked back and hope i never will again


if you want something good to happen in your life, sometimes you have to work at it, and stay dedicated...thats my 2

 

[Skinr1]

I also wanted to come back and add the following
Bill ,
if you look at the very top banner of this page

Welcome to ECF! We are the world’s largest electronic cigarette website. Here you’ll find a world of ecig information, discussion, everything for new and old users, honest reviews, and a whole lot more!

do you see the words " Honest Reviews " sir . well ?
ok im giving an honest open review there is something about what im doing as far as vaping that's hurting me and causing me discomfort
posting about it and you don't like it so your shunning me and spitting at me for it .
also
these are your words : and I quote "
The facts are that vaping IS a do less harm therapy "
ok lets dissect that sentence and your wording as you did to me " less harm " those are your words Mr. CASSA Rep or your side or whatever your throwing at me . so your saying some form of harm is associated correct even though its a lesser form its still there correct ?
because that's certainly how it looks .
hence harm , pain , discomfort , is evil perhaps a lesser form there of but an evil non the less in my opinion maybe not yours but mine .
I will not know the facts of whats happening to me from this until I visit the ENT on tues which again im sure he knows far more then you
or I do . I posted what happened to me last night because others were interested in knowing as I am just like after I visit the doc I will post the finding Good bad or indifferent , now im sure your gonna bash me somemore when I say this but you don't get it , I wanted this to work for me like its working for you and others and for some reason its Not , can you personally explain why ? no you cant
well im sure the doc can . and when he does ill know . simple .
if your not gonna be encouraging sir , or helpful I would at least appreciate it if you would get up off my back about it
because the way your being insulting and slamming info at me doesn't look real good especially since your flying the Cassa
banner on your posts ............. especially with your " our side comment " again as I said above im not gonna let you run me down just because what works for you is hurting me in some way and you don't like it because im saying something ................ if your cassa I would think you would be more interested in maybe hearing what the doc has to say as I am and maybe we will all learn something ........
im sorry but its odd it seems your afraid that you wont like or cant digest anything possibly negative about these products or what side effects could come from there of from other folks that these products don't help . I highly doubt that im the only person that has problems with these products ....theres posts all over this forum of this prob and that prob etc etc ...........
if something doesn't work for someone which im not sure of that in my case yet , you don't bash them you try and help them . maybe find or suggest a fix or something in a positive manner .......... not do what your doing .

 

[Uma]

I'm so happy to hear you have an appt with the specialist soon. I hope all is okay.

Did you ever try the sensitivity steps? (Also important steps for cleansing the palette)
Vape only pg, non flavored, no mg.
Vape only VG, non flavored, no mg.
Vape a 50/50 mix, non flavored, non mg

Go through the above steps again, but this time add one flavoring ( water based, of course,)
Fine? Now switch to another flavoring, repeat, until you've tried every flavoring.

Fine? Now add 6% nicotine. Then 8, then 12...

Myself, the higher the mg, the more VG I have to use. For instance, my boba bounty is 24mg, but my piña colada is pg 6% mg! and my cheesecake is 0mg 50/50.

Keep a journal, of course.

I hope somebody else simplifies my attempt to describe the process. It can take several weeks, months, to find your non sensitive areas. The cool thing is, it's cheaper than allergists, yet we do the same procedure, with the added bonus of discovering WHY we feel the way we do after drinking a strawberry cola, milkshake, or whatever.

 

[ItTechy]

I too applaud your decision to seek professional assistance.

Personally my family MD did tell me he has been on several research groups for E-Ciggs and that the many negatives associated with users when they first start vaping is a direct effect of the many chemicals they have been inhaling contained in their commercial cigarettes, some cause extreme sensitivity to certain flavorings, PG and or VG based liquids, usually PG.

I wish you well with your exam.

 

[rhean]

I read more of the thread. The problem is your initial post, which says nothing about your own difficulties with vaping, and frames the dilemma in an impersonal way. You also introduce terms and concepts that are controversial and difficult to define; we can all write tomes on "evil," "lesser of two evils," etc.

The crux of the issue, though, is that YOU are no longer enjoying vaping. One reason is physical. You're experiencing dry mouth, burning throat, nose bleeds, which are almost certainly a result of dehydration. Dehydration can cause dry mouth and burning throat. It can thin out/dry out nasal passages, leading to nose bleeds.

I also think that you're feeling psychologically uncomfortable with vaping, which could be intensifying the other symptoms.

Life is short, and we all need to pick our battles. If the act of vaping worries you, if you're having a hard time hydrating, don't vape! That vaping works for me doesn't mean it has to work for you; we're all individuals, all different. You said that you also hate smoking. Well, here's your chance to stop both. If you need to do so via gum, then do it! Good luck

 

[DC2]

what you don't seem to be catching while your going out of your way to ram information down my throat and preaching at me is , which is certainly how its being put out there , what your referring to as perhaps a great help to others is causing me pain and discomfort ok

It seems you haven't considered the possibility that Bill replied after having read only your opening post.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

I also wanted to come back and add the following
Bill ,
if you look at the very top banner of this page

Welcome to ECF! We are the world’s largest electronic cigarette website. Here you’ll find a world of ecig information, discussion, everything for new and old users, honest reviews, and a whole lot more!

do you see the words " Honest Reviews " sir . well ?
ok im giving an honest open review there is something about what im doing as far as vaping that's hurting me and causing me discomfort
posting about it and you don't like it so your shunning me and spitting at me for it .
also
these are your words : and I quote "
The facts are that vaping IS a do less harm therapy "
ok lets dissect that sentence and your wording as you did to me " less harm " those are your words Mr. CASSA Rep or your side or whatever your throwing at me . so your saying some form of harm is associated correct even though its a lesser form its still there correct ?
because that's certainly how it looks .
hence harm , pain , discomfort , is evil perhaps a lesser form there of but an evil non the less in my opinion maybe not yours but mine .
I will not know the facts of whats happening to me from this until I visit the ENT on tues which again im sure he knows far more then you
or I do . I posted what happened to me last night because others were interested in knowing as I am just like after I visit the doc I will post the finding Good bad or indifferent , now im sure your gonna bash me somemore when I say this but you don't get it , I wanted this to work for me like its working for you and others and for some reason its Not , can you personally explain why ? no you cant
well im sure the doc can . and when he does ill know . simple .
if your not gonna be encouraging sir , or helpful I would at least appreciate it if you would get up off my back about it
because the way your being insulting and slamming info at me doesn't look real good especially since your flying the Cassa
banner on your posts ............. especially with your " our side comment " again as I said above im not gonna let you run me down just because what works for you is hurting me in some way and you don't like it because im saying something ................ if your cassa I would think you would be more interested in maybe hearing what the doc has to say as I am and maybe we will all learn something ........
im sorry but its odd it seems your afraid that you wont like or cant digest anything possibly negative about these products or what side effects could come from there of from other folks that these products don't help . I highly doubt that im the only person that has problems with these products ....theres posts all over this forum of this prob and that prob etc etc ...........
if something doesn't work for someone which im not sure of that in my case yet , you don't bash them you try and help them . maybe find or suggest a fix or something in a positive manner .......... not do what your doing .

I've replied calmly and given much info in regards to your original post and have received no appreciation or feedback whatsoever yet you have the time and energy to type out (for the second time) 2 very long posts attacking a very highly regarded member Sorry but based on your demeanor for the very first time in 2+ yrs I'm using the iggy feature. NO reply required please.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I'm so very sorry you are having a problem with your vaping, and as others have suggested, I'm happy to hear that you are going to see a specialist to help you with the vaping. I think you read a lot more into my post than is actually there. I am glad you are vaping and participating in the Forum. If you need help from any of us on the Forum, I know I'm happy to help.

I did take exception to the way you painted vaping as perhaps not being the do less harm therapy that it actually is, and this is well documented. We don't know if there any long term affects with vaping, as it's too soon to tell, but it is well established that it is about 100 times better than smoking cigarettes. In no way was I addressing any of your personal issues that you have had while vaping, only the premise that vaping may not be the panacea that some say it is. I don't think it's a panacea, but I do believe it is far less harmful than smoking and for so many people the only way for them to quit smoking. Was for me.

I do hope you get your vaping issues sorted out. I think vaping can be a good thing for many former smokers. Wish you all the best and truly do hope this all works out for you. I think the professional help is a good idea. Best to you!

 

[Ryedan]

I also wanted to come back and add the following

Wow, just when we got past this stuff. I know a lot of people are trying to help you as best they can and are rooting for you Skinr1. In my opinion it's your use of the word 'evil' that gets people riled up. I know I took it the wrong way at first. And not everyone will read every post in a thread before responding.

I don't use the word 'evil' to describe an illness or something that unintentionally causes pain. I think that is the way you are using it. Please correct me if I got that wrong. Most people I believe interpret 'evil' to include things like suffering intentionally caused, morally wrong acts, corruption and people doing intentionally cruel things.

Hope you're doing OK!

 

[Summ nut]

Yesterday was one year without a cig not a drag nothing.
Bye bye coffin nails,your done.
It worked for me and I liked smoking,or thought I did.


Sent using lipo power

 

[Myk]

I too applaud your decision to seek professional assistance.

Personally my family MD did tell me he has been on several research groups for E-Ciggs and that the many negatives associated with users when they first start vaping is a direct effect of the many chemicals they have been inhaling contained in their commercial cigarettes, some cause extreme sensitivity to certain flavorings, PG and or VG based liquids, usually PG.

I wish you well with your exam.

That's interesting.
When I first vaped in '09 I had a problem (I thought it was mental or nicotine). The more I did it the worse it got.
In '12 I learned about PG issues when I was checking it out again. Tried my old liquid, almost instant problem. Ordered some PG free, no problem.
Then I started DIY. Anything over 10% PG flavoring was too much, 10% was pushing it. Now it's seeming that I'm able to push that 10% limit. The more I do it at an amount I can handle the more I can push that amount higher. I'm not going over 10% but 10% isn't having to be used in limited amounts like it was.

 

[ItTechy]

I think in reading the OP that yes in fact if we are to say the "lesser of two evils" that vaping food grade ingredients and is some cases pharmaceutical or at least high grade nicotine extract it is the much lesser of the evils....

We all are aware that there is no definitive research on the inhalation of these food grade ingredients, but one would have to figure to some extent that if ingestion poses no risk, then inhalation should not either.

While we all also can agree that no addictive drug is good, many find that nicotine with it's many negatives physiologically has a lot of positives psychologically for many..... The worst being the delivery method via conventional smoking.

If not for vaping I probably would have lost my mind, let alone my health, and I personally had a issue with PG based liquids, and still do to some extent.

I mean lets face it, the FDA or some organization will conclude that vaping Cinnamon flavoring in a PG based liquid causes whatever when subjected to lab animals in does 100 times more intense that a human can withstand, or 100 times more than one can vape in a lifetime...THUS WHO CARES!

It's my body, I will do what I want with it, as long as I am not hurting anyone else, what's the issue?

I sincerely hope the OP finds something that works for them, and wish them well!

As I have posted many times in these forums Vaping is a personal journey..most find a relaxing new "hobby" and a nicotine replacement therapy that works....

 

[Skinr1]

Wow, just when we got past this stuff. I know a lot of people are trying to help you as best they can and are rooting for you Skinr1. In my opinion it's your use of the word 'evil' that gets people riled up. I know I took it the wrong way at first. And not everyone will read every post in a thread before responding.

I don't use the word 'evil' to describe an illness or something that unintentionally causes pain. I think that is the way you are using it. Please correct me if I got that wrong. Most people I believe interpret 'evil' to include things like suffering intentionally caused, morally wrong acts, corruption and people doing intentionally cruel things.

Hope you're doing OK!

I use the word evil or the lesser there of ...about anything that causes me pain or discomfort .me and only me . however if anyone would of focused on what I was say most of my OP I was asking questions and opinions . but thank you for the advice to see an ENT because that's what im doing . I see a few that feel I pushed back alittle hard at what Bill , said to me .
and that's acceptable and fine but I didn't do anything differently then he did he took words I wrote and interpited them his way
I took words he wrote and did the same thing . nothing more . fact is I consider vaping the lesser of 2 evils in my case and that's my opinion . I am not a CASAA member because I don't believe 100% vaping is what others are saying it is because something about the use of these products is causing me discomfort and pain . hence I haven't vaped since last night and my throat and nazal passages actually feel alittle better . and aren't scratchy or anything , leading me to believe that there is something about the juices that's doing this .
I will get my answers when I go to the ent .
I believe 1 person responded about the mental thing . yes that is a major factor when something is hurting you it gets you attn. real fast
pain has a way of doing that and makes you hesitant to keep doing it .bill indeed did openly conform something I asked another user posts back about long term proof , and bill said there is NONE . thank you sir I applaud your response . but I do go back to what I said before and its not for everyone , like any other product on the market . if tues I find out that vaping is causing or is associated with the way im feeling and what im experiencing then guess what vaping isn't for me , I'll try something else say goodbye and thank everyone for the support I got when I was trying and leave the forum . if theres a fix or some type of alternative then I will stay and keep at it . that's all I can do . all I do know is and this is fact before 54 days ago I never felt any of this kinda stuff before ever .

to UMA : at the moment im not vaping at all im using gum I know its not gonna get me far I have never had any success with it but hopefully it will get me to tues .

to ittechy : thank you so much for your advice .

 

[ItTechy]

I think the ENT will advise you that you have sensitivities to various things, and if they cause you discomfort you should of course not do whatever it happens to be.

As I had mentioned I personally had a terrible sensitivity to PG based liquids; there is also the reactions that take place when you stop smoking, your body is trying to repair itself, and during this phase you are are sensitive to things you otherwise would not be.

Give it some time, listen to your doctor, and mostly use common sense, nicotine as with any drug if it can be alleviated from your system is the best alternative, but for many of us a replacement therapy made more sense.... for me it did as I work in a very high stress position and my way of coping is the nic....I mean it sure beats Rx drugs for anxiety...at least for me....

Please do let us know what your ENT has to say....

Again we wish you the best in your quest....

 

[Uma]

I wish the gum would have worked for me. Unfortunately, I fell into the 90% group with the epic fail rate. A colleague, on the other hand, did quite well with it and is smoke free. Not Nicorette gum free, mind you, but smoke free. Until this year, that used to be met with admiration mixed with concern. Today, according to the ANTZ, being addicted to nicotine means you're still a no good for nothing addict. Yet, the addiction warning on the Nicorette gum changed from recommendation for short term use, to oh what the hell, use it til ya lose it, it's not that addictive. There's so much contradiction out there, which, as long as it stayed educational instead of forced, is good, so we can make our own informed decisions based on our individual needs.
Just be aware that many Nicorette users still chew, 20 years later.
Vapers, if wanted, can gradually reduce nicotine until nic free.
If so wanted, they can then work on their physical habit and quit the action as well.
One baby step at a time.
Maybe with the gum you can rotate with Dentyne or something? I never got that far along with it to learn tips about weaning off of it, or the new habit of the slow half chew. I hope the ANTZ have classes and whatnot for that in your area. I haven't seen any in my area, they seem more interested in getting us on it than off it. But, we're always a few years behind the rest of the nation.
My point is, remember to be careful, even with an old long time product and research it deeply, keep abreast of chemical enhances added, etc, and good luck to ya!

 

[DC2]

if theres a fix or some type of alternative then I will stay and keep at it

I probably forgot, but did you ever mention how much water and other fluids you have been drinking?

Vaping is dehydrating, and as another poster said, all of the problems you describe could be related to dehydration.
Typically vapers need to start drinking more fluids (especially water) or they will encounter some issues.

 

[Donnie Narco]

I too, like many others here, have smoked for years (14 years off and on), and I have tried to quit multiple ways...each leading me right back to cigs. Personally, I love vaping and don't even want a cigarette when I am vaping. However, when I am out with friends at a bar or even at work sometimes, I still have a cig. Not entirely proud of it, but for me I enjoy being able to have a cigarette now and then. They definitely dont taste good, but I like knowing that I am in full control and can do what I want when I want.

I think that once vaping becomes more socially accepted, I will be more comfortable vaping in public. But right now, when I vape in public, I get nasty looks...even WORSE than if I was smoking a cigarette!! I don't understand why people would look at me even worse than if I was stinking up the place with smoke, but that's just the lack of education on the subject I guess. I personally hope everyone stops smoking and chooses vaping instead.

Let people do what they want, when they want and there will be a lesser problems with vaping. I just wish more people wold understand how vaping is not harmful to anyone.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

It seems you haven't considered the possibility that Bill replied after having read only your opening post.

I read the first page (10 posts only) and saw nothing about his personal difficulties with vaping, and I came very late to the party, and have learned a valuable lesson about making sure I read all the posts, BEFORE I defend vaping. Of course, I will thereafter defend vaping, but with all the facts about the discussion first. This brouhaha was avoidable, unnecessary, and probably my fault, even though I still think the premise is flawed. Ok, I've owned my stuff, time to drop it.

 

[Skinr1]

I probably forgot, but did you ever mention how much water and other fluids you have been drinking?

Vaping is dehydrating, and as another poster said, all of the problems you describe could be related to dehydration.
Typically vapers need to start drinking more fluids (especially water) or they will encounter some issues.

my total fluid intake daily

breakfast :
1 cup of coffee average mug size .
1 sm carton of OJ .

Lunch :
2 powerade 20oz .

Dinner :
well between 7:00pm and 9:00pm bedtime
your basic 160z glass of icetea generally 2-3
I guzzle ice tea love it .

in between :
I always keep a 6pak of zephyr hills and vitamin waters in the fridge in my office .