The (polite) Clone/Authentic discussion! :D

[2naphish]

Your right! I totally forgot BCV, I have the single BFM, and I CANNOT WAIT until I splurge on the dual tube. Although they do look plain, you truly have to hold them to feel the quality. It's the PERFECT mod, the only thing that makes me twitch is the c-clip that holds the button in, I wish they could do that different, but I'm not complaining!

you are mistaken about the c-clip...no c-clip in any BCV mod.... YOU HAVE TOO MANY MODS LOL!!!!!! must be the Scottua you were thinking of. and yes that would be a hassle. my Talon has a clip inside the button which i can't fault but it is an extra step towards properly cleaning.. another quality U.S. mod under $200 that has lasted me a long time and i have nothing but praise for Bart Buttermore as a builder. Versa rocks.

 

[Coldrake]

I edited my statement though, so let's keep the snark opinions at a minimum.

"I agree sis , and that's the most humane way to look at it, as well as the most fair way to look at it. If competitive clone prices weren't trying their best to give us all a good deal, then vaping would be ALOT harder for some to afford."

Much better. But I still disagree.

Your right Coldrake, that was a little intense, but I assure you I'm NOT blaming health issues on relatively high authentic prices (you 100% misunderstood). Frankly I don't know how you honestly thought anyone would think that.

My intention: To emphasize cigarettes are bad, they have bad health affects, notably know for the "c word". (That's not authentic manufacturers fault though.) If only authentics were available...then it would (undoubtedly) be more difficult for some to manage as a hobby which is a healthy alternative. You CAN'T deny that.

Actually I can. That's because authentics are available, (also to respond to USMCotaku's post #85),

Great quality authentics, (there are more inexpensive authentics, but I wanted to give examples of good quality),
$45 -Magneto
$30 -Fogger V4
---
$75 Total

Questionable quality clones
$21.54 -Kayfun v3.1 from Fasttech
$20 -Nemesis Style Mechanical Mod from Fasttech
---
$41.54 Total

$33.46 Price difference


$ 4.25 -Kanthal
$ 2 -cotton
$12 -ohm meter
$13 -2 batteries
$11 -charger NiteCore IntelliCharger i2
$34 -120 ml e-liquid from MBV
---
76.25

Gear + Authentics,
$151.25

Gear + clones,
$117.79

$180 -Average U.S. price for a pack a day smoker for 30 days. (June 20, 2014)

Sorry, but I simply don't believe that the price of authentics is holding anyone back from vaping.

That's the hard (and rational) truth! Well put man, I still think the authentic companies need to ***patent*** their device if they want it to remain un-copied. I mean, patents extend overseas, nobody is safe from international court.

Good point. Some of them actually do. However, the fact is that it can take years to aquire a patent, and until the patent is finalized there is not much you can do if someone overseas clones your product. Then it could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to pursue it. As fast as this industry moves, it's almost pointless, unfortunately.

 

[tayone415]

Yeah, I think they copy popular mods simply because they are good at producing, and not designing. They're simply amazing at multiplying equipment at a high quality. Which is pretty smart, because modders will spend alot of time perfecting an idea a huge amount of people will want, and then only make enough for 1/10th of that group. They simply make it available for the remaining 9/10th's, and do it at a competitive price. (Which we should be doing here in the States, capitalism is all about competing for the consumer, the consumer should NOT have to stand up for the "poor companies" .

Infinite and HCigar do make small tweeks to original pieces, for instance they both don't put non-conductive metals on mods/atty's anymore, because why would you want brass instead of copper or silver (most of them have silver). They often improve on the little nuisances that the originals had, and usually aren't a carbon copy. They often come with bigger/wider contacts, although in the same form to function like the desired mechanical does. My favorite addition they've been doing lately is taking an authentic that will give you three small pieces of tube to screw together for whatever size you use, to save money/be resourceful, which loses conductivity, and gives you an unattractive seem. And they will make the mod into one solid seemless tube, and give you three individual sizes, I LOVE that. It show integrity, and that they aren't just trying to ride coattails.

But then again, although they clearly are capable of making their own devices, they choose to replicate the "rockstars", the one most desired fruits of labor from one manufacturers finished idea, and they make it available to ALL who want it, that's the awesome part to me. Again, if I LOVE the clone, I will DEFINITELY support the authentic, and get the original idea if it's that good. It's just some aren't that good. Let's all be honest and admit there hasn't been any "revolutionary" equipment recently. All mechanicals are a tube with a bottom button and 2 contacts, and all atty's are 3 posts, occasionally changed up to 4-5 posts, and all we're paying for until the next big thing is pre-drilled airholes, and pretty engravings.

I gladly bought the plume veil because they genuinely had a product that they put some real obvious effort into, and it's amazing, there still isn't a clone to compare yet.

Actually I've noticed when I would buy clones that Infinite would use brass contacts instead of silver plated or copper contacts in some of their clones. Also the Hcigar clone of the black/copper Stingray was pretty off it was 1 tube and had prints on the button when it shouldn't of, where Infinite had 3 tubes and no print on the firing button. What is my point with this...I forgot, but it was a good one.

I don't think the consumer should have to stand up for "poor companies" like you said either. But, if Infinite or Hcigar wanted to make their own products they could, Infinite copied the Hellio and the TOBH and Stillare and built 1 atty with all 3 designs and branded it with their name, which is fine IMO since authentic makers do the same. The Plumeveil has a dual positive post, I believe the Hellios was first, and somewhere the Igo-M did the same, and if you look at the fins on the TOBH and the Patriot someone did it first. So clone companies could of easily taken a design here and there and built a new product, with little minor changes.

Nice is that authentics are coming down. I mentioned about The Doomsday Mod by Intergalactic Industries is $120 and I just seen the Flagship MOD by SMK today in store $100-120 depending on metal (aluminum, stainless steel, brass, copper) all full bodied too. So some

 

[USMCotaku]

I have a question for you and any other clone user, If a new non-company came out with an original design and a quality product both material and machining and the same price as a clone and you were able to buy both, would you buy the authentic or would you buy a clone of a product that you been wanting, but is not in your budget or just aren't willing to pay the high price tag for the authentic piece?

personally I have no brand loyalty of any type....i wouldn't choose based on whether it was based on a popular design or vice versa. I would choose the one I liked best....appearance, build quality, function etc...I didn't pick up my panzer clone because I wanted a panzer....i bought it because when I held it in my hand and started fiddling with it I could immediately feel the quality. Threading spot on, machining top notch etc....

 

[USMCotaku]

Much better. But I still disagree.


Actually I can. That's because authentics are available, (also to respond to USMCotaku's post #85),

Great quality authentics, (there are more inexpensive authentics, but I wanted to give examples of good quality),
$45 -Magneto
$30 -Fogger V4
---
$75 Total

Questionable quality clones
$21.54 -Kayfun v3.1 from Fasttech
$20 -Nemesis Style Mechanical Mod from Fasttech
---
$41.54 Total

$33.46 Price difference


$ 4.25 -Kanthal
$ 2 -cotton
$12 -ohm meter
$13 -2 batteries
$11 -charger NiteCore IntelliCharger i2
$34 -120 ml e-liquid from MBV
---
76.25

Gear + Authentics,
$151.25

Gear + clones,
$117.79

$180 -Average U.S. price for a pack a day smoker for 30 days. (June 20, 2014)

Sorry, but I simply don't believe that the price of authentics is holding anyone back from vaping.


Good point. Some of them actually do. However, the fact is that it can take years to aquire a patent, and until the patent is finalized there is not much you can do if someone overseas clones your product. Then it could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to pursue it. As fast as this industry moves, it's almost pointless, unfortunately.

you must have never had to live on a budget where even 20 bucks makes big difference. Yes, there was a time when I would go through s pack a day of cigarettes, but I was in the service still, and most of my income wad expendable. Your logic is based on assumptions that just don't hold true. Live off of my budget for just a few months, the come back and honestly say you could afford any type of authentic mod. My first clone was a nemesis (still use it, works good for me). I paid $45.....for the mod, battery, charger and an RDA..so even there your math is off for my situation (and the many like me)

 

[tayone415]

personally I have no brand loyalty of any type....i wouldn't choose based on whether it was based on a popular design or vice versa. I would choose the one I liked best....appearance, build quality, function etc...I didn't pick up my panzer clone because I wanted a panzer....i bought it because when I held it in my hand and started fiddling with it I could immediately feel the quality. Threading spot on, machining top notch etc....

Ok so you're just after something with a good price along with good quality. I think you are different from most people who buy clones. I don't mean that in a bad a way either.

 

[USMCotaku]

I've been researching how to build my own. If I can get that down I won't have to worry about clone vs authentic.....though I will be limited to box mod style....no equipment to machine a tube mod. If I can build my own dna30 mod I'll be ecstatic.

 

[tayone415]

I've been researching how to build my own. If I can get that down I won't have to worry about clone vs authentic.....though I will be limited to box mod style....no equipment to machine a tube mod. If I can build my own dna30 mod I'll be ecstatic.

You can find a lot of interesting homemade mods online, I've seen some made with an Altoids container and similar metal mint containers. coke cans, rockstar cans and even with an inhaler.

 

[USMCotaku]

I should make one in a die cast aircraft and call it the cloud chaser

 

[DavidAmonettNashville]

I should make one in a die cast aircraft and call it the cloud chaser

Just don't try to bring this one on an airplane anymore...​

 

[TamiP]

you must have never had to live on a budget where even 20 bucks makes big difference. Yes, there was a time when I would go through s pack a day of cigarettes, but I was in the service still, and most of my income wad expendable. Your logic is based on assumptions that just don't hold true. Live off of my budget for just a few months, the come back and honestly say you could afford any type of authentic mod. My first clone was a nemesis (still use it, works good for me). I paid $45.....for the mod, battery, charger and an RDA..so even there your math is off for my situation (and the many like me)

I hate to get in on this argument, BUT, I also noticed that in the argument, the difference in price between clone and authentic was limited to attys and tanks, instead of where the REALLY big gulf of differences comes in... the mods themselves.

 

[TamiP]

Just don't try to bring this one on an airplane anymore...​

LOL Can you imagine trying to explain that away to TSA?

 

[DavidAmonettNashville]

LOL Can you imagine trying to explain that away to TSA?

I love Innokin to death but what the hell were they thinking??

 

[TamiP]

I love Innokin to death but what the hell were they thinking??

Chalk it up to a "Hey Bubba, hold my beer...." moment. It's actually really cool, and probably a great conversation piece and mod BUT,... not a good travel PV, espeically anywhere homeland security would be present. hahahaha

 

[DavidAmonettNashville]

Chalk it up to a "Hey Bubba, hold my beer...." moment. It's actually really cool, and probably a great conversation piece and mod BUT,... not a good travel PV, espeically anywhere homeland security would be present. hahahaha

Yeah, I guess you gotta take the good with the bad in this case....I mean obviously this design wasn't the most thought out but the main reason I love Innokin is because they dont steal others design ideas. They're very original in their own designs which sometimes leads to a real stinker. All and all though I think Innokin is The Best mid level supplier of gear in the vape industry. Which is why so many Provari owners also own an Innokin or two....

 

[Circa Survivor]

I hate to get in on this argument, BUT, I also noticed that in the argument, the difference in price between clone and authentic was limited to attys and tanks, instead of where the REALLY big gulf of differences comes in... the mods themselves.

Mech mods all have the same basic function. I just don't understand paying 5x the price for (maybe) a littler better machining and some different contacts, be it silver plated or gold or whatever. I can, however, understand if you're a collector of sorts that likes the more ornate things. But seriously, when I started out I couldn't tell the difference between a bunch of mech mods besides the logo.

 

[tayone415]

Mech mods all have the same basic function. I just don't understand paying 5x the price for (maybe) a littler better machining and some different contacts, be it silver plated or gold or whatever. I can, however, understand if you're a collector of sorts that likes the more ornate things. But seriously, when I started out I couldn't tell the difference between a bunch of mech mods besides the logo.

Yes, all mech mods are basically designed to do 2 things, hold a battery that will produce power to your atty to vaporize e liquid. Yes, a lot of times you will get better machining, different and more effective contacts, based on materials and even if plated it's not always plated on the same metal, and contacts make a big difference with performance. Also the difference in quality, where some clones are made really cheap and is overpriced to the quality. Also quality control isn't the best with uneven drilling of post holes or air holes with certain products, even the better clone companies. With RDAs you'll also notice some don't even have 2 airflow holes when the original did, or the posts it self is much thinner and looks like cheaper material and quality.

For the most part authentics don't cost 5x more unless you only shop on fastech or similar sites, and usually those clones are of lower quality than a more reputable clone company like Hcigar or Infinite etc. You, like a lot of other people can't tell, but like with anything even non-related vape clones there's someone who can always tell.

I know you said you don't understand, I started buying clones, but now only buy authentics. But, there's things people do that I don't understand but people are willing to do. Think of an authentic mech mod like a genuine Gucci purse, it's nice, expensive over priced, better quality, but in the end all it does is hold a woman's money and her things, and think of a clone, like a fake Gucci bag, does the same thing still holds money and her things, not as good quality an obviously not real. Why not just buy a cheaper bag that's not a knock off? Same for shoes their are authentic Jordan's and fake one's not every knows, but I can tell.

Would you buy knock-off shoes or clothes or would you buy something original with a lower more affordable price tag?

My point is not everyone is willing to pay high price tags for anything authentic no matter what it is and there will always be people who are. But, there are other options besides clones of any product. I just prefer aunthetics, may it be expensive or cheaper, it's a better feeling IMO. There is a difference even if at times it's slight or way off another good example is designer cologne or perfume with a high price tag, would you buy the expensive version or the knock of version that can be found at a $1 store?

 

[USMCotaku]

Yes, all mech mods are basically designed to do 2 things, hold a battery that will produce power to your atty to vaporize e liquid. Yes, a lot of times you will get better machining, different and more effective contacts, based on materials and even if plated it's not always plated on the same metal, and contacts make a big difference with performance. Also the difference in quality, where some clones are made really cheap and is overpriced to the quality. Also quality control isn't the best with uneven drilling of post holes or air holes with certain products, even the better clone companies. With RDAs you'll also notice some don't even have 2 airflow holes when the original did, or the posts it self is much thinner and looks like cheaper material and quality.

For the most part authentics don't cost 5x more unless you only shop on fastech or similar sites, and usually those clones are of lower quality than a more reputable clone company like Hcigar or Infinite etc. You, like a lot of other people can't tell, but like with anything even non-related vape clones there's someone who can always tell.

I know you said you don't understand, I started buying clones, but now only buy authentics. But, there's things people do that I don't understand but people are willing to do. Think of an authentic mech mod like a genuine Gucci purse, it's nice, expensive over priced, better quality, but in the end all it does is hold a woman's money and her things, and think of a clone, like a fake Gucci bag, does the same thing still holds money and her things, not as good quality an obviously not real. Why not just buy a cheaper bag that's not a knock off? Same for shoes their are authentic Jordan's and fake one's not every knows, but I can tell.

Would you buy knock-off shoes or clothes or would you buy something original with a lower more affordable price tag?

My point is not everyone is willing to pay high price tags for anything authentic no matter what it is and there will always be people who are. But, there are other options besides clones of any product. I just prefer aunthetics, may it be expensive or cheaper, it's a better feeling IMO. There is a difference even if at times it's slight or way off another good example is designer cologne or perfume with a high price tag, would you buy the expensive version or the knock of version that can be found at a $1 store?

the problem with your analogy is that some mech clones have been proven BETTER then the original....not all clones are of inferior quality

 

[TamiP]

Yes, all mech mods are basically designed to do 2 things, hold a battery that will produce power to your atty to vaporize e liquid. Yes, a lot of times you will get better machining, different and more effective contacts, based on materials and even if plated it's not always plated on the same metal, and contacts make a big difference with performance. Also the difference in quality, where some clones are made really cheap and is overpriced to the quality. Also quality control isn't the best with uneven drilling of post holes or air holes with certain products, even the better clone companies. With RDAs you'll also notice some don't even have 2 airflow holes when the original did, or the posts it self is much thinner and looks like cheaper material and quality.

For the most part authentics don't cost 5x more unless you only shop on fastech or similar sites, and usually those clones are of lower quality than a more reputable clone company like Hcigar or Infinite etc. You, like a lot of other people can't tell, but like with anything even non-related vape clones there's someone who can always tell.

I know you said you don't understand, I started buying clones, but now only buy authentics. But, there's things people do that I don't understand but people are willing to do. Think of an authentic mech mod like a genuine Gucci purse, it's nice, expensive over priced, better quality, but in the end all it does is hold a woman's money and her things, and think of a clone, like a fake Gucci bag, does the same thing still holds money and her things, not as good quality an obviously not real. Why not just buy a cheaper bag that's not a knock off? Same for shoes their are authentic Jordan's and fake one's not every knows, but I can tell.

Would you buy knock-off shoes or clothes or would you buy something original with a lower more affordable price tag?

My point is not everyone is willing to pay high price tags for anything authentic no matter what it is and there will always be people who are. But, there are other options besides clones of any product. I just prefer aunthetics, may it be expensive or cheaper, it's a better feeling IMO. There is a difference even if at times it's slight or way off another good example is designer cologne or perfume with a high price tag, would you buy the expensive version or the knock of version that can be found at a $1 store?

The comparison to the Gucci purse is a very good one. I imagine it really is much the same.

YES, the materials are way better in a Gucci than a WalMart purse... Yes, the workmanship is better.... that being said... it's a purse, and there are people like me who yes, can appreciate the beauty and workmanship in a fine quality item, but would NEVER pay such a high price for one when a Walmart purse will do the same job. LOL It's the depression era mentality I'm afraid. I wasn't born in it, but I was raised by depression era grandparents and a lot of it drives me crazy with that attitude, but at the same time, I have to admit a lot rubbed off.

 

[Circa Survivor]

the problem with your analogy is that some mech clones have been proven BETTER then the original....not all clones are of inferior quality

This. Even with the clone attys, for example the Infinite clones, they are very well made. If you buy the authentic, IMO it's mainly to support the company. Plus I wouldn't want to have to baby my atty. If I bought a clone and I lost it, oh well, I'll buy another. Some people have different mindsets. I go for the more affordable things, though I will pay a little extra to get quality (I'd choose Infinite over Tobeco for $10 more)