The United States of Fear - Part 1

[jwbnyc]

What's that old saying?

The prudent person hopes for the best, but plans for the worst.

There is no clear citation I could find.

It's been attributed to a number of people.

 

[Jorge22]

Hmm... The ban on selling tobacco to minors not being really enforced in a lot of places can't really be compared to the FDA's intentions regarding ecigs or the TPD in Europe because it's just not the same. So, just the FDA's deeming regulations, forget about Europe because it's different still... Cigarettes are cigarettes even if they can't be menthol flavoured or whatever, so there isn't much room for improvement or otherwise. On the flip side, ecigs are something totally different and there's a very wide choice of everything. If the regulations are put in place, there probably won't be much of anything left and what was once a thriving industry and the best public health weapon against tobacco use may be reduced to next to nothing. So, all the vendors could be selling "next to nothing" to minors etc., but it won't make sense anymore. Minors will buy cigarettes instead. The rest of us... God knows.

 

[UnclePsyko]

You can't be this naive. I've been in this game since 09, they plan to kill the industry. It's what they wanted. Both BT and BP do not want people to quit smoking and the government does not want to give up the easy tax revenue that they get from cigarettes. Big Tobacco has done this before with roll you own, and by encouraging regulations that would cripple competition. There is nothing preventing them from doing this again.

They have played games this last 7 years only to look like they planned to listen, they never did. The FDA is the enemy of the people, it's time you realize that.

Oh, I think they listened alright, but not for any other reason than to take notes on how to formulate a game plan.
They never intended to take our testimonials as a way to better regulate but how to close loopholes to totally regulate.
Perhaps it's paranoia, but it seems obvious (to me) they have been reading threads and watching YouTube to educate themselves before putting the pen to the paper. The regulations are awfully specific and shows a pretty thorough understanding of how we use our devices, unlike the last time they got the ball rolling.

 

[skoony]

@UnclePsyko ^^ Ditto.
Another obvious ploy used by our opponents that seems to be totally
over looked.
Agent Provocateurs.
: one employed to associate with suspected persons and by pretending sympathy with their aims to incite them to some incriminating action.

This does not only mean incriminating as in breaking the law.
a person who commits, or who acts to entice another person to commit an illegal or "rash act "
'parentheses mine'
The rash act being to encourage and or foster beliefs detrimental to ones cause.
We had them in the peace movement. We had them in the smokers right groups.
IMHO they are also here. I may not (in fact I don't) know who they are but, I see
there finger prints everywhere on this sight.

Due to the nature of the subject mater here I know people are passionate about
their idea's and truly believe in them. This is undeniable. That is also why it is
impossible to ferret out those who do not have our best interests in mind.

Regards
Mike

 

[UnclePsyko]

@UnclePsyko ^^ Ditto.
Another obvious ploy used by our opponents that seems to be totally
over looked.
Agent Provocateurs.
: one employed to associate with suspected persons and by pretending sympathy with their aims to incite them to some incriminating action.

This does not only mean incriminating as in breaking the law.
a person who commits, or who acts to entice another person to commit an illegal or "rash act "
'parentheses mine'
The rash act being to encourage and or foster beliefs detrimental to ones cause.
We had them in the peace movement. We had them in the smokers right groups.
IMHO they are also here. I may not (in fact I don't) know who they are but, I see
there finger prints everywhere on this sight.

Due to the nature of the subject mater here I know people are passionate about
their idea's and truly believe in them. This is undeniable. That is also why it is
impossible to ferret out those who do not have our best interests in mind.

Regards
Mike

Agreed 110%.
The Moderators can see the "Guests" viewing the threads, I no longer can but sometimes in these touchy discussions, I get a bit suspicious who these "Guests" are and why they are so interested in our discussions.
I'm sure the majority are curious onlookers, but a few of them... ???

OH, and by the way, I don't wear tin foil... I swear!

 

[ENAUD]

Guests and lurkers just go with the territory of forum boards. Could be anyone, members who prefer to read only, curious vaper/smoker who wound up here via a Google search, FDA agents, BT researchers who plan to re-invent the wheel once they win their secure product classifications.

I wear a tin foil hat, and have thought for some time that BT knows that cigalikes don't work, and they have seen the writing on the wall by the rapid advancement of vaping and it's popularity. If only there was a way to set the clock back in time, then they could introduce second and third generation devices and get them approved one by one and keep all of the profits to themselves. An added plus is they will be able to spin it to look like they were the good guys in the end, because they introduced safer nicotine products, because, you know...they really do care about their customers

 

[skoony]

Agreed 110%.
The Moderators can see the "Guests" viewing the threads, I no longer can but sometimes in these touchy discussions, I get a bit suspicious who these "Guests" are and why they are so interested in our discussions.
I'm sure the majority are curious onlookers, but a few of them... ???

OH, and by the way, I don't wear tin foil... I swear!

Guests can't post and thus have no way to influence discussions on the forum
if you catch my drift.
Mike

 

[UnclePsyko]

Guests and lurkers just go with the territory of forum boards. Could be anyone, members who prefer to read only, curious vaper/smoker who wound up here via a Google search, FDA agents, BT researchers who plan to re-invent the wheel once they win their secure product classifications.

I wear a tin foil hat, and have thought for some time that BT knows that cigalikes don't work, and they have seen the writing on the wall by the rapid advancement of vaping and it's popularity. If only there was a way to set the clock back in time, then they could introduce second and third generation devices and get them approved one by one and keep all of the profits to themselves. An added plus is they will be able to spin it to look like they were the good guys in the end, because they introduced safer nicotine products, because, you know...they really do care about their customers

Damn!... Looks like you guys with the tin foil hats were right all along!

 

[crxess]

Damn!... Looks like you guys with the tin foil hats were right all along!

Just because your Paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to Get You.

I find little other use for Tin foil in the Microwave Age

 

[Steamix]

It won't end vaping, I promise you.

Hmmmm... what's yer current net worth ? Me legal counsel wants to know for filing the lawsuit in 2018

Kidding aside :

It won't end vaping - but it WILL end vaping the way I like it.
It won't end vaping - but it WILL end vaping the way most fellow vapers like it.

A place where decent meals for decent prices are served. FDA wants us to line up at the next greasy spoon instead. Higher prices, crappy meals. Naaw...

 

[Tommy-Chi]

All this panic and outcry..

You guys do know beer, wine and liquor are all alcohol but are regulated differently with different taxes, manufacturing and process? The same will apply for vaping vs. cigarettes, snuff and other NDS.

It won't cost a million dollars like everyone is .....ing, it isn't cigarettes; it won't be the same fees; in fact if you go to the FDA site and read the I'm a manufacturer page, there's no fees even up yet; a deeming regulation is yet to determine what the true cost or process will be.

So your favorite vape shop will not stock up mg levels that don't sell, juice suppliers won't continue making levels that aren't in demand and is vapers will get a surplus of our favorite nic levels in stock.

[removed]

Don't forget there are vaping millionaires looking to invest in small companies and turn them to money making corporations, expect to see the rise in actual real deal high volume companies.

Alas, we always find workarounds the law. BB guns can't be shipped to NY by federal law yet they do it anyway, regulars in bars still smoke indoors and we will continue to survive past this.

To think the gov won't collect their sin tax for this long is all but an illusion. They calculated this for years, when vaping is now in its prime it's the perfect time for the hand to dip in the cookie jar.

Everything will be ok.

Where to begin with this? B/c I cannot curse a lot, and name calling will not do any good, lets try the following.

My first question is how old are you? How long have you been vaping? Your avatar says you just joined ECF a few days ago.

Have you read ECF posts regarding crushing regs in many other Westernized countries? In some locations you cannot buy more than 10ml of e-liquid. In some locations it is illegal to sell nicotine.

Do you know how capitalism works? You seem to think that vaping retailers and manufacturers sell a lot of stock that is not moving b/c the nic is too high for you.

What nic level are you vaping at and how many retailers do you buy from online that they are out of you low nic e-liquid? I've never had an issue with getting low nic, but for higher nic keep a bottle of nic in the fridge to add to bottles I buy that are too low.

When I decide to do almost anything... the govt seems to want to tax me. Who gave these low life ...... omnipotent power to hinder the sale/ownership of almost anything or tax people based on activities that are harmless. What right does anyone have to tax me or control me in any way?

Note that some countries are saying vaping is 95% harmless(UK, and UK physicians), and some Attorney Generals in the US (Iowa) are standing up to the FDA/Democrats.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Anybody who expects to be a life long vaper will be rebuilding and mixing eventually because of quality and price. My DIY costs about 7 cents a day, $30 a year. (I used to spend $3,000 a year smoking a carton a week.)

Congress did not give the FDA authority to ban tobacco but they did give it the authority to ban electronic cigarettes. They have authority to do anything at any time for any reason so the rules are for chumps. There is historical precedent for this kind of power, you might have encountered in your legal dabblings, called the Divine Right of Kings. We don't govern that way any more because it promotes corruption and incompentence and discourages business formation and risk taking.

Well said. Man you are a cheap date. Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

@UnclePsyko ^^ Ditto.
Another obvious ploy used by our opponents that seems to be totally
over looked.
Agent Provocateurs.
: one employed to associate with suspected persons and by pretending sympathy with their aims to incite them to some incriminating action.

This does not only mean incriminating as in breaking the law.
a person who commits, or who acts to entice another person to commit an illegal or "rash act "
'parentheses mine'
The rash act being to encourage and or foster beliefs detrimental to ones cause.
We had them in the peace movement. We had them in the smokers right groups.
IMHO they are also here. I may not (in fact I don't) know who they are but, I see
there finger prints everywhere on this sight.

Due to the nature of the subject mater here I know people are passionate about
their idea's and truly believe in them. This is undeniable. That is also why it is
impossible to ferret out those who do not have our best interests in mind.

Regards
Mike

It's not the ones easily seen Mike that are trouble. They're the ones we confide in. That's the worst aspect of this whole situation. That by the FDA's not acting in good faith, playing a hidden hand, it is a betrayal of the public trust. It must then necessarily and by design have a chilling effect on free speech…even though the express intent is not reflected in the rules. I say illegal, unlawful. And most definitely, not American. Good luck all.

 

[Skunkworkx]

Gobberment want their cut is what it comes down to....see how well the US keeps out illegals and drugs Now states are making pot legal and taxing the p**s out of it...and trying to get illegals legal so they can pay taxes too

 

[MacTechVpr]

@skunkworks, the price of things must necessarily go higher (as industries are regulated, hobbled and artificial scarcity sets in). Then government can set truly fair and equitable standards, prices and wages. Problem solved. Get it? We just need a little bit of your sacrifice 'till we get there. Look how well it's worked in Venezuela.

Good luck all.

 

[sofarsogood]

Well said. Man you are a cheap date. Good luck.

I realized in the first couple of days of vaping that I was going to beat smoking. I took six weeks to switch to make sure it didn't fail. How I feel now, mostly, is grateful. I want to give back.

My hunch is the FDA has blundered. By interfering with smokers switching to vaping they are poisoning people not so differently than the water situtation in Flint, Michigan, which is a public health fiasco caused by public health.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I realized in the first couple of days of vaping that I was going to beat smoking. I took six weeks to switch to make sure it didn't fail. How I feel now, mostly, is grateful. I want to give back.

My hunch is the FDA has blundered. By interfering with smokers switching to vaping they are poisoning people not so differently than the water situtation in Flint, Michigan, which is a public health fiasco caused by public health.

Right you are (I think). But they just don't know it yet, short or long, they've already lost.

Did the same thing after realizing I wasn't hooked 2 days in. I carefully charted a course with decent gear (and quickly). Didn't escape purchasing a few clearo's tho. My bad. But it made me realize how elusive that dependable vape was going to be for many. it pretty much cinched it for my inclination to teach repeatable rebuilding back in Jun 2013. Glad I did and continue as it's been very rewarding. The more enough of us become self-reliant I feel in my gut the issue becomes hopeless…for them. So I'm delighted that the number getting it seems to be exploding.

Good luck all.

 

[crxess]

meanwhile Press seems to support our concerns:

FDA Vaping Regulation - E-Cig Prohibition Conspiracy

 

[Forkeh]

Damn!... Looks like you guys with the tin foil hats were right all along!

Don't you hate it when that happens?

 

[UnclePsyko]

Don't you hate it when that happens?

In cases like this... Boy, you have no idea!