"The war over vaping's health risks is getting dirty"

[Jman8]

We are facing a tempest in a cartomizer. Expect folly from all quarters.

Here's the folly I fully expect before 2015 is over:
1) June - the FDA pulls electronic cigarettes, and anything related to them (juice, rda's, cartomizers, yada!) under the legal umbrella of tobacco products. They make it illegal to sell them to anyone under the age of 21. They announce that all companies coming out with a new product must have the product evaluated by the FDA before it can go to market. I have no problem with the first one, but that second stipulation is going to cause headaches for manufacturers. Even Chinese ones.

The first one is causing all perceived headaches of everything that has to do with regulations. Having no problem with the first one makes me wonder why anyone would have issues with what's to follow. It's exactly like saying, "I favor prohibition, as long as it isn't me that is faced with that prohibition."

It is also precisely why we face a propaganda war. That vapers are on side of ANTZ with that one makes me smh.

 

[hurricanegirl100]

Ditto on the mechs, Traten! Got two - and I'm gonna get one more. Gonna order an old school SmokTech Octopus, too - I love my mechs, but Vision Spinners are just easier to carry when I'm out n' about. I can see something simple like a Vision Spinner going to fifty bucks, even online. Damn shame. A lot of people will go back to cigarettes.

That said, BCC heads might eventually cost around 5.00 EACH! I want to see if a little rebuildable Octopus RDA could be a good alternative. If it is, I'm gonna grab several of them. Put a little silica wick/cotton? with a 2.2-2.4 ohm level - that oughta work nicely! Don't know yet. We'll see.

If that Octopus RDA works out, the only problem I've got left is the juice. I don't currently DIY, but I'm researching that now, too.

 

[hurricanegirl100]

The first one is causing all perceived headaches of everything that has to do with regulations. Having no problem with the first one makes me wonder why anyone would have issues with what's to follow. It's exactly like saying, "I favor prohibition, as long as it isn't me that is faced with that prohibition."

It is also precisely why we face a propaganda war. That vapers are on side of ANTZ with that one makes me smh.

Minors can't vape. End of this particular discussion. It's been beaten to death.

 

[caramel]

Minors can and will vape, smoke, drink, have sex etc.

 

[Lessifer]

Ditto on the mechs, Traten! Got two - and I'm gonna get one more. Gonna order an old school SmokTech Octopus, too - I love my mechs, but Vision Spinners are just easier to carry when I'm out n' about. I can see something simple like a Vision Spinner going to fifty bucks, even online. Damn shame. A lot of people will go back to cigarettes.

That said, BCC heads might eventually cost around 5.00 EACH! I want to see if a little rebuildable Octopus RDA could be a good alternative. If it is, I'm gonna grab several of them. Put a little silica wick/cotton? with a 2.2-2.4 ohm level - that oughta work nicely! Don't know yet. We'll see.

If that Octopus RDA works out, the only problem I've got left is the juice. I don't currently DIY, but I'm researching that now, too.

Off Topic: Don't get an Octopus, it's actually one of the worst designed RDA's out there, no juice well, and if it's an older one with bottom airflow, it will leak like crazy. Better off getting an Igo-L or Igo-W.

 

[Jman8]

Minors can't vape. End of this particular discussion. It's been beaten to death.

How very ANTZ like of you to word it this way.

All observably incorrect. Again, it is why your other points are really of little concern once you agree with this form of prohibition.

 

[hurricanegirl100]

Off Topic: Don't get an Octopus, it's actually one of the worst designed RDA's out there, no juice well, and if it's an older one with bottom airflow, it will leak like crazy. Better off getting an Igo-L or Igo-W.

But an Igo won't fit on a Spinner, Lessifer. And much as I love my mechs, I love my VV eGo batts, too! But you're not the first one who's said that the Octopus RDA is pretty awful - I'm wide open to suggestions of something rebuildable that would fit on something like a Vision Spinner. 22 mm RDA's aren't gonna work lol..and rebuilding a standard Kanger or SmokTech bottom coil head looks like an intimidating PITA.

Oh...lol...Jman? Whether you/me/anybody agrees with banning minors from vaping, I'd be willing to bet a new Provari that when the FDA comes out with their regulations, that "no-minor" clause is gonna be in there. And at that point, it won't really matter what we think about it. That regulation will get shoved down our throats along with the rest of them.

 

[Jman8]

I think it will always matter what we think about it. But agree that it is something that will pass because many vapers and plausibly all non-vapers want it that way. I'm just here to point out that when you make your bed, prepare to lie in it. Instead of, you know, lie about it.

 

[jdrewry]

Since none of these agencies--the CDC, the FDA--seem to be able to stop BT from making cigarettes, how much of a chance do they really have in stopping e-cigs?
Too many countries/people out there making APVs and e-liquids for them to stop anything, IMHO.

 

[KattMamma]

Since none of these agencies--the CDC, the FDA--seem to be able to stop BT from making cigarettes, how much of a chance do they really have in stopping e-cigs?
Too many countries/people out there making APVs and e-liquids for them to stop anything, IMHO.

Stop it? No.

Make it incredibly expensive and inconvenient? Yes.

I know that despite the PACT act passed in 2010, and numerous state laws passed around the same time, cigarettes are still sold online by shady vendors who don't pay the taxes (many of them are not in the US). States are getting aggravated enough about it that some have started going after the recipients for the tax bill. I believe around 10 states made it illegal to ship cigarettes into their state period, while the rest just require the taxes to be paid.

Around the same time, roll your own tobacco was made illegal to ship across state lines, and took a whopping 2800% increase in federal taxes.

I believe these measures are tame compared to what they want to do to vaping supplies.

 

[philoshop]

Since none of these agencies--the CDC, the FDA--seem to be able to stop BT from making cigarettes, how much of a chance do they really have in stopping e-cigs?
Too many countries/people out there making APVs and e-liquids for them to stop anything, IMHO.

Cigarette sales are a cash cow for the government through numerous channels, and there is no desire to stop it. Maintaining the status quo is their goal.
The free-market existence of e-cigarettes and vaping, however, pose a serious threat to that cash cow.

 

[hurricanegirl100]

I think it will always matter what we think about it. But agree that it is something that will pass because many vapers and plausibly all non-vapers want it that way. I'm just here to point out that when you make your bed, prepare to lie in it. Instead of, you know, lie about it.

I didn't make this "bed". The FDA did. Plumped the pillows and everything..

 

[twgbonehead]

Not to be repetitive, but there's a somewhat alarming trend in the comments to this article (and a chance to fight back as well) that I mentioned here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-article-vaping-my-response.html#post15573976

Has to deal with the obvious shillers (who are including their "pay-me" key in their posts) and a strategy to counteract that. Would have posted it here first but I lost the page :-(

 

[DrMA]

Dr Philips epic reply:
http://antithrlies.com/2015/04/05/m...age-delusion-california-war-on-ecigs-edition/

 

[AndriaD]

Not to be repetitive, but there's a somewhat alarming trend in the comments to this article (and a chance to fight back as well) that I mentioned here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-article-vaping-my-response.html#post15573976

Has to deal with the obvious shillers (who are including their "pay-me" key in their posts) and a strategy to counteract that. Would have posted it here first but I lost the page :-(

Hilarious! And priceless!!!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Dr Philips epic reply:
More on “public health” and the mirror image delusion (California War on Ecigs edition) | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

I just tweeted it, and quoted the most salient quote in the entire article when I FB'ed it - "...there is just something very wrong — ethically, morally, dispositionally — about the state propagandists who find it so easy to lie under the guise of promoting public health (while hurting public health), and then compound that by lying about the people who call them out." I made sure to include the #BigVapor when I tweeted it.

Absolutely brilliant.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

I have no problem with the first one

I didn't make this "bed". The FDA did. Plumped the pillows and everything..

You "make" this bed by expressing no problem with what the FDA is up to. Plumping the proverbial pillows on this one.

Like saying, FDA is going to ban open systems and I for one have no problem with that. Except huge difference is, the kids thing is the one that drives all the rest. Failure to recognize this strikes me as, 'you really don't understand how this works, do you?'

I recall saying the day the FDA proposed regulations were announced that it was tame. I still consider it this way. Cause I recognize that vast majority (like 90%) of all vapers WILL go along with the one regulation that drives the rest. And as long as that is the case, then everything else is tame. To try and say - don't curtail flavors, or don't raise taxes, or don't deny use of these in all public places, but golly gee, I love what you are doing with the prohibition to kids thing, strikes me as precisely making your bed on the rest of the items, and being very naive to not realize this is exactly what you are up to. You have literally conceded on the point that this is probably very harmful to minors and therefore it would be a good thing to shield them from it. Then in all other threads/discussion you (general you) participate in it is arguments of, "but they haven't proven this is harmful yet." Or, "the evidence from studies that do exist show this is magnitudes less harmful that smoking." But, hey let 'me' stand by the notion that kids really ought to never be allowed to use this, and then let me continue to fight the uphill battle that 'they' want to put on 'me' for reasons that are all of their doing, and not based on anything that I have put forth.

The whole politics of that sort of position strike me as tame, and thus far show up that way in how we approach the battle. Of course we are going to get railroaded if we support (or see no problem with) prohibition to minors. To conclude otherwise, would be naive. Show me this other product on the planet right now that is visibly forbidden to kids, but that has a free market at work where things aren't expensive and sin taxes are not being applied. We are trying to argue that in terms of harm, it is akin to soda, but when it comes to kids, it ought to be treated exactly like smoking.

Hmmm, I'm going to say that is going to be a political nightmare for us moving forward for as long as 90% of us (vapers) go along with that feeble logic.

At the very least come over to the side of the 10%. The water is warm over here and you get to believe everything else you do, but are no longer buying into ANTZ's #1 rhetorical ploy. Plus, you'll get to realize that you are in the minority and that regardless of your expressed beliefs, it will still be overwhelming majority that want it the other way. The way where prohibition to a segment of the population makes complete (and ultimately, completely confusing) sense.

 

[Jman8]

Dr Philips epic reply:
More on “public health” and the mirror image delusion (California War on Ecigs edition) | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

Says this:

Recognizing the mirror image delusion in someone offers some useful insight: When they accuse others of something, it tells you they themselves are guilty of it or realize they would be guilty of if offered the opportunity.

...and...

Tobacco controllers’ obsession with financial conflict of interest reveals their lack of intellectual integrity or even recognition that there is such a thing. They think, “I will say whatever is expedient, regardless of what is true; I would say whatever my funders told me to say” and assume everyone else acts the same.

I quote these after checking the SF Tobacco Free videos one last time to make sure I recalled that yep they have a video titled "the kids aren't alright." And make at least one video entirely about how industry is targeting kids.

How do "we" fight back? By arguing, "no no no, not targeting kids. Cause that would be wrong!"

IOW, “I will say whatever is expedient, regardless of what is true" and will be anti-kids using even while I was once that kid that was using, and am now willing to lie and say that even while I have stopped smoking, smoking will addict you for life and you will die young, even though I am 88 years old as I type this.

Perhaps I am seen as off topic for what this thread is about, but from where I sit, this is precisely on topic and is continuously the exact focal point of the political propaganda war that is original topic of this thread. I like how my first post on this thread gets zero likes, cause I don't see the huge bias in article from OP, and yet when I lay out my cards, it is clear to me that this bias thing is very strong, yet strongly denied on our side. All for the sake of political expedience that is thus far leading us to inevitable conclusion of getting railroaded. Ya know, all because of "them." Might want to check that mirror again for the image delusion of who exactly holds ANTZ rhetoric near and dear to their central beliefs around politics of vaping.

 

[caramel]

I didn't make this "bed". The FDA did. Plumped the pillows and everything..

Yep. Very tidy.

 

[AndriaD]

I agree, Jman. And saying that no kids can legally vape is the same as saying, "let them smoke." Even though smoking can and will harm a developing body in such ways that will make it very difficult for that child to ever get free of the cigarette smoke cocktail. Do those of us who started smoking as young teenagers really dispute that? That's just plain ignorance, or old-age forgetfulness, or something.

Do I think it's optimum for developing bodies to ingest nicotine? Probably not, but it's no worse than caffeine and sucrose, which are both completely legal for anyone to consume. And if kids start vaping -- for WHATEVER! reason -- then they aren't smoking, are they? Who knows, they might try a smoke; kids do try all sorts of things. But if they've already tasted vapor, whatever flavor, then they're most likely going to find the tobacco even worse than those who've never tried vaping, because they have something to compare it to.

Those who think that simply passing a law is going to keep a child from trying ANYTHING he sets his mind to... you clearly don't know kids at all.

Those who think that passing the 18+ law for vaping is going to keep the ANTZ off our back about all the rest of it... you clearly don't know ANTZ at all.

No quarter. No concessions. Death to ANTZ!

Andria