"The war over vaping's health risks is getting dirty"

[traten]

I like you. I'm pretty fond of myself. Love kids. Used to be one myself.

I started smoking at 14. We played poker on the corner with cigs as chips. Later, in the army, our rations included little packs of Luckies. They tasted good. Then, as working stiffs, we smoked at our desks happily while solving little crises with our smoking clients. Now I'm old. I vape in my dotage. I struggle for relevance and freedom. I dabble in satire and irony on internet boards. Don't you?

Gee, life sure was fun. But it was dangerous, too. Now we're encouraged to protect those helpless little kids in every way possible to prevent them from becoming worthless vaping louts and sluts like us. Doesn't this sound good to y'all? Let's go and play ball with the Antis. They sure know the game.

And here's a like for you, Jman8. Not messin' with you. Straight.

 

[caramel]

Gee, life sure was fun. But it was dangerous, too.

If I were to do it again, that's the only option I would go for.

Sipping Soylent Green in a rubber walled labor camp? Let Antz do that.

See, I'm generous.

 

[Jman8]

Love kids. Used to be one myself.

The discrimination against kids, is really discrimination against one's self. I think the vaping issue makes that pretty clear, and yet plausible deniability makes it possible to conclude otherwise.

As if we aren't all still kids, nor acting childish in our approach to how best to govern a society and not show up with visible pockets of hypocrisy.


---Innocent until proven an adult------

 

[twgbonehead]

I agree, Jman. And saying that no kids can legally vape is the same as saying, "let them smoke." Even though smoking can and will harm a developing body in such ways that will make it very difficult for that child to ever get free of the cigarette smoke cocktail. Do those of us who started smoking as young teenagers really dispute that? That's just plain ignorance, or old-age forgetfulness, or something.

Do I think it's optimum for developing bodies to ingest nicotine? Probably not, but it's no worse than caffeine and sucrose, which are both completely legal for anyone to consume. And if kids start vaping -- for WHATEVER! reason -- then they aren't smoking, are they? Who knows, they might try a smoke; kids do try all sorts of things. But if they've already tasted vapor, whatever flavor, then they're most likely going to find the tobacco even worse than those who've never tried vaping, because they have something to compare it to.

Those who think that simply passing a law is going to keep a child from trying ANYTHING he sets his mind to... you clearly don't know kids at all.

Those who think that passing the 18+ law for vaping is going to keep the ANTZ off our back about all the rest of it... you clearly don't know ANTZ at all.

No quarter. No concessions. Death to ANTZ!

Andria

Wow, Andria! I think I love you!

I believe that a lot of vapers support the "over 18" concept because they find it politically embarrassing not to do so.

In reality, if one of my children (or grandchildren) was prescribed for ritalin, I think I would insist that they try an e-cig with nicotine first. It has been shown to improve concentration, and provide a calming effect, and I know it does both of these for me. Is it optimum for growing bodies to ingest nicotine? In many cases it might not be optimum, but particularly when other drugs are being considered, it might be the best possible choice. When all is said and done, nicotine just ain't the bad guy it's been played as.

And PARTICULARLY when e-cig use among teens is rising, coincident with record declines in teen smoking after a multi-year plateau, who can see that as a bad thing???? Would I prefer that kids start vaping instead of starting smoking? You're damned right I would!

Look, teenagers, particularly, are going to drink, smoke, do drugs, steal cars, shoplift, and vape, in fairly significant numbers. (ETA: And, of course, have sex with each other) It's what they do, and it's a consistent enough phenomenon that I think this kind of "pushing the limits" is actually an important developmental phase. And, consequently I think that trying juveniles as adults, or putting them in adult prisons is an abhorrence. If the juvenile laws are too lenient to accommodate the most serious crimes, adjust those laws to better reflect the situation, but still take into account their mental capabilities. Why do so many people feel that we can treat them like children until they get us ...... off, and then it's fair to treat them like adults?

Guess that topic got away from me a bit.... Anyway, I would like to see teen vaping treated like smoking used to be when I was a teenager - back then, you could smoke if you had a letter of permission from your parents. (Don't you miss the days when parents were actually allowed to raise their children the way they thought was right? Now we have parents threatened with having their kids taken away because they allowed them to play outside without supervision. The Horror!)

 

[Kent C]

Wow, Andria! I think I love you!

You don't know how many times I've thought that

 

[AndriaD]

Wow, Andria! I think I love you!

I believe that a lot of vapers support the "over 18" concept because they find it politically embarrassing not to do so.

In reality, if one of my children (or grandchildren) was prescribed for ritalin, I think I would insist that they try an e-cig with nicotine first. It has been shown to improve concentration, and provide a calming effect, and I know it does both of these for me. Is it optimum for growing bodies to ingest nicotine? In many cases it might not be optimum, but particularly when other drugs are being considered, it might be the best possible choice. When all is said and done, nicotine just ain't the bad guy it's been played as.

And PARTICULARLY when e-cig use among teens is rising, coincident with record declines in teen smoking after a multi-year plateau, who can see that as a bad thing???? Would I prefer that kids start vaping instead of starting smoking? Your damned right I would!

Look, teenagers, particularly, are going to drink, smoke, do drugs, steal cars, shoplift, and vape, in fairly significant numbers. It's what they do, and it's a consistent enough phenomenon that I think this kind of "pushing the limits" is actually an important developmental phase. And, consequently I think that trying juveniles as adults, or putting them in adult prisons is an abhorrence. If the juvenile laws are too lenient to accommodate the most serious crimes, adjust those laws to better reflect the situation, but still take into account their mental capabilities. Why do so many people feel that we can treat them like children until they get us ...... off, and then it's fair to treat them like adults?

Guess that topic got away from me a bit.... Anyway, I would like to see teen vaping treated like smoking used to be when I was a teenager - back then, you could smoke if you had a letter of permission from your parents. (Don't you miss the days when parents were actually allowed to raise their children the way they thought was right? Now we have parents threatened with having their kids taken away because they allowed them to play outside without supervision. The Horror!)

I agree with every bit of that -- in fact I once went toe-to-toe with one of my son's teachers suggesting Ritalin because he had ADD -- if he'd suffered from ADHD, I *might* have considered it, depending on just how disruptive he was, but for ADD? I told that teacher to mind her own business because I was NOT going to medicate my square peg to fit their round hole! Nor was I going to take him out of school and home-school him, because square-peg only-children NEED that socialization! (and that's the ONLY reason I didn't home-school him, because I could certainly have taught him a great deal more than those state-licensed babysitters! -- in fact, I DID!)

And absolutely agree with you about trying children as adults -- ANY children, up to age 17 -- because their pre-frontal cortex (the part involved in judgment, decision-making, and impulse control) won't be mature until they're 25-30 yrs old. You hit the nail on the head about treating them as children until they piss us off -- I found, quite to the contrary, that if you treat them with the respect that you'd show to any adult person, it has quite a wonderful payback -- they learn what respect really is, so they can feel and display that to others.

When I was severely depressed (2003-ish), I actually asked my 15-yr-old son if it would be easier for him, if I went to a hospital for treatment, rather than inflicting all my angst on this hapless and helpless young person. He said no, because then he wouldn't know if they were treating me well, actually helping me get better -- how many 15 yr olds would even consider something like that? My therapist actually thought it was terrible to ask a 15 yr old a question like that -- but I pointed out to her that I wasn't asking his opinion of whether I should be in a hospital, but whether it would be *easier on him* -- and I also pointed out something we always told our son: that we might not always be able to go along with his wishes or opinion -- but that we always WANTED TO KNOW his opinion and wishes. As parents, we had an obligation to try and always do the right thing by him, even if it was completely at variance with his wishes -- but as human beings trying to raise another human being, I felt we also had the obligation to know our son, to know his mind and his opinion, to try and discern if there were any problems in any part of his life that we might be able to help him with, or help him understand.

Treating kids like short mindless things who should only do what you say, be seen and not heard -- that's a fantastic way to raise kids that don't respect you, and won't have anything to do with you, once they have a choice. If their own parents don't show them respect, how are they supposed to learn what it is?

Andria

 

[twgbonehead]

I agree with every bit of that -- in fact I once went toe-to-toe with one of my son's teachers suggesting Ritalin because he had ADD -- if he'd suffered from ADHD, I *might* have considered it, depending on just how disruptive he was, but for ADD? I told that teacher to mind her own business because I was NOT going to medicate my square peg to fit their round hole! Nor was I going to take him out of school and home-school him, because square-peg only-children NEED that socialization! (and that's the ONLY reason I didn't home-school him, because I could certainly have taught him a great deal more than those state-licensed babysitters! -- in fact, I DID!)

And absolutely agree with you about trying children as adults -- ANY children, up to age 17 -- because their pre-frontal cortex (the part involved in judgment, decision-making, and impulse control) won't be mature until they're 25-30 yrs old. You hit the nail on the head about treating them as children until they piss us off -- I found, quite to the contrary, that if you treat them with the respect that you'd show to any adult person, it has quite a wonderful payback -- they learn what respect really is, so they can feel and display that to others.

When I was severely depressed (2003-ish), I actually asked my 15-yr-old son if it would be easier for him, if I went to a hospital for treatment, rather than inflicting all my angst on this hapless and helpless young person. He said no, because then he wouldn't know if they were treating me well, actually helping me get better -- how many 15 yr olds would even consider something like that? My therapist actually thought it was terrible to ask a 15 yr old a question like that -- but I pointed out to her that I wasn't asking his opinion of whether I should be in a hospital, but whether it would be *easier on him* -- and I also pointed out something we always told our son: that we might not always be able to go along with his wishes or opinion -- but that we always WANTED TO KNOW his opinion and wishes. As parents, we had an obligation to try and always do the right thing by him, even if it was completely at variance with his wishes -- but as human beings trying to raise another human being, I felt we also had the obligation to know our son, to know his mind and his opinion, to try and discern if there were any problems in any part of his life that we might be able to help him with, or help him understand.

Treating kids like short mindless things who should only do what you say, be seen and not heard -- that's a fantastic way to raise kids that don't respect you, and won't have anything to do with you, once they have a choice. If their own parents don't show them respect, how are they supposed to learn what it is?

Andria

Epic! I changed my mind, I don't think I love you!

 

[Kent C]

Epic! I changed my mind, I don't think I love you!

That too, has passed my mind ...but less times

 

[Kent C]

Epic! I changed my mind, I don't think I love you!

I realize now that you most likely meant I don't think, but know with absolute certainty... but my reply still fits either meaning

Andria and I agree on a lot of things... just not all - which is true of about all of us.

 

[AndriaD]

If everyone agreed with me... someone would be committing all of ya! And then I'd have no one to argue with; wouldn't THAT be boring!

Either that, or I'd be dead certain that everyone was patronizing me -- and I HATE that!

Andria

 

[Bob Chill]

I've been on a Disqus rampage lately. Especially on the Wired article. It's futile but fun. If I can sway one persons mind by using facts instead of agenda driven spins, lies, and half truths then it's worth the keystrokes. lol

 

[twgbonehead]

I realize now that you most likely meant I don't think, but know with absolute certainty... but my reply still fits either meaning

Andria and I agree on a lot of things... just not all - which is true of about all of us.

Yeah, I've always liked Andria's posts, within reason, but today she's just been unbelievable. And then I found out (in a different thread) she's a Jethro Tull fan.

I like hanging out on ECF, you meet great folks!

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah, I've always liked Andria's posts, within reason, but today she's just been unbelievable. And then I found out (in a different thread) she's a Jethro Tull fan.

I like hanging out on ECF, you meet great folks!

Getting excellent vapemail can do that for a person. I found 100ml of Shisha Strawberry for sale in the classies for $25, and that came, and also an excellent PIF of some koh gen do and shiseido cotton to try out -- and I also got my asthma medicine today, so I'm 3 for 3.

I believe the person who PIFed me the cotton may be reading this thread, so clean out your PM box so I can thank you properly!

I'm really just an old curmudgeon, getting more and more curmudgeonly every day. And I now understand GET OFF MY LAWN a lot better -- PROPERTY INSURANCE!

Andria

 

[KattMamma]

I agree, Jman. And saying that no kids can legally vape is the same as saying, "let them smoke." Even though smoking can and will harm a developing body in such ways that will make it very difficult for that child to ever get free of the cigarette smoke cocktail. Do those of us who started smoking as young teenagers really dispute that? That's just plain ignorance, or old-age forgetfulness, or something.

Do I think it's optimum for developing bodies to ingest nicotine? Probably not, but it's no worse than caffeine and sucrose, which are both completely legal for anyone to consume. And if kids start vaping -- for WHATEVER! reason -- then they aren't smoking, are they? Who knows, they might try a smoke; kids do try all sorts of things. But if they've already tasted vapor, whatever flavor, then they're most likely going to find the tobacco even worse than those who've never tried vaping, because they have something to compare it to.

Those who think that simply passing a law is going to keep a child from trying ANYTHING he sets his mind to... you clearly don't know kids at all.

Those who think that passing the 18+ law for vaping is going to keep the ANTZ off our back about all the rest of it... you clearly don't know ANTZ at all.

No quarter. No concessions. Death to ANTZ!

Andria

Ok I'm not going to profess my love or anything (but I do really like you, does that count? LOL)

That post was RIGHT ON... and I believe the world would be a MUCH better place with more people like you in it.

If anyone thinks the ANTZ will be happy to stop at age restrictions, they're as delusional as the ANTZ.

 

[twgbonehead]

If everyone agreed with me... someone would be committing all of ya! And then I'd have no one to argue with; wouldn't THAT be boring!

Either that, or I'd be dead certain that everyone was patronizing me -- and I HATE that!

Andria

I agree!

Why don't you take a nice hot bath? It will make you feel so much better! :evilgrin:

 

[niczgreat]

My one huge gripe with this article is the following paragraph.

There’s plenty of evidence behind the campaigns’ claims—studies that link e-cigs to asthma, lung inflammation, MRSA infection risk and exposure to harmful chemicals.

I just saw my first anti-vaping commercial on Hulu the other day. They didn't site a single study. It was pure propaganda. I was truly disgusted.

Where is the evidence?

 

[niczgreat]

By the way you can always comment to the Author. Please keep it nice! Maybe if she was informed about the inaccuracies in her article she might write another or amend it.

Again please keep it nice, let's assume that she is just ignorant and not malicious.

https://twitter.com/DanielleVenton

 

[DC2]

I'm really just an old curmudgeon, getting more and more curmudgeonly every day. And I now understand GET OFF MY LAWN a lot better -- PROPERTY INSURANCE!

I used to be pretty wild when I was younger...
But I'm also getting more and more curmudgeonly every day...

That's why I got rid of my front lawn and planted cactus instead.
I don't have to yell at the kids to stay off my lawn now.
They can play there all they want.

 

[AndriaD]

I used to be pretty wild when I was younger...
But I'm also getting more and more curmudgeonly every day...

That's why I got rid of my front lawn and planted cactus instead.
I don't have to yell at the kids to stay off my lawn now.
They can play there all they want.

What we mainly get are people coming over from the next street; when they enter this street's backyards, they're actually on our neighbors' property, but when they come out to the street, by then they're on OUR property; there's a hill, and it's terraced between the 2 yards with 25-yr-old railroad ties -- which are rotten and starting to crumble, all you have to do is step or sit on them -- or, if they go out past the railroad ties, it's just the bare hill, with lots of loose gravel. I don't want our insurance taking a hit because someone is trespassing!

Andria

 

[Kent C]

I used to be pretty wild when I was younger...
But I'm also getting more and more curmudgeonly every day...

That's why I got rid of my front lawn and planted cactus instead.
I don't have to yell at the kids to stay off my lawn now.
They can play there all they want.

I don't have any problems either.... it may be the sign though....