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There may be an easy answer to the FDA ban

Discussion in 'Legislation News' started by rlorange, Mar 12, 2009.

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  1. rlorange

    rlorange Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 2, 2009
    Australia
    Hello everyone, I made this into a new thread so it gets everyones attention.

    In Australia e cigarettes were banned recently in yet another ignorant nanny state knee-jerk reaction. The way they implemented the ban was through the nicotine being a schedule 7 poison of which sale and distribution is illegal without regulation. I.e. warning labels, child-proof bottles etc, etc.

    The good news is that it is still legal for me to purchase them from overseas for personal use. Customs have inspected my two overseas packages and passed them. Our TGA (equivalent to the FDA) Can only ban personal importation of restricted drugs which they themselves regulate in Australia. Nicotine replacement therapy is a drug and regulated by the TGA BUT there are few restrictions in place, i.e. its classified like Apsrin or Panadol (Tylenol) which is over-the count Pharmacy product.

    I am not sure how it differs in the US but consider this: Is it illegal to buy nicotine patches or gum from oerseas and have it pass U.S. customs? The easy and moderated decision they will likely make is what our TGA has done, ban their sale from within the country especially at retail shops to avoid the issues associated with a dometic source of unregulated nicotine but allow users to import for personal use from overseas because the responsibiliity lies solely with the user if they are poisoned or harmed in some way.

    So all may not be lost. For the US to ban the personal importation of e cigs then they will have to redraft the existing laws which which is a lenghtly process they need to justify etc, etc. They can howver ban them immediately from sale within the US becasue of Nicotine's posion listing and probably will.

    Also remember without nicotine they simple have no justifictaion for the ban so the devices themselves are safe.

    You can very easily extract the nicotine from patches (each one has 120mg or so but only 15 is absorbed) and make your own juice. This is my plan B if our TGA really gets histerical.

    If the FDA does ban it then I'm sure lawfirms will be very interested in a class action lawsuit because I know that the e cigarette is by far the most effective way to quit smoking. The government will be liable if they are preventing smokers the best means to save their own lives, this could be easily proven in a civil lawsuit.

    Remeber we are fighting three powerfull enemies using these things:

    Tobacco comanies and their lobbyists who are worried that these things may pose the first serious challenger to their monopoly over supplying nicotine addicts their drugs.

    Drug companies who enjoy the profits supplying us with a far lamer and more expensive alternative, like giving a ...... addict a valium instead of methadone.

    The government who enjoys taxing the hell out of a drug out of the most addictive drug known. Sure they need to recoup the cost of dying smokers but they are addicted to the tax all the same. In our country they take $7 per packet!! estimated to be 3 times the cost of smokers to the health system MINIMUM.

    My guess is that if this comes to a head the drug companies will simple fund the research and approval of the priciple and then release their own lame arsed cotton-wool-regulation-coated expensive version of the same thing. If they do this then that opens the door for the chinese companies to comply with the regulations put in place.

    I say let them bring it on, there are enough of us now to launch a counter offensive and the media will absolutely LAP IT UP.

    Could a philathropist PLEASE help us hopeless nicotine addicts and fund a proper study into e cigarettes to clear this nonsense up ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Calaban

    Calaban Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2009
    Newmarket, NH USA
    You make some interesting points, and I appreciate your enthusiasm.

    Since I don't know anything about the FDA, law, rules regulations, testing, legal loopholes etc I will have to refrain from speculating on those issues.

    What I am really curious about is what you said about nicotine patches. How on earth can you safely extract the nicotine from these?

    -Cal
     
  3. Nuck

    Nuck Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 14, 2009
    Ontario, Canada
    Yeah..I'd like to know just out of curiosity how you extract it.
     
  4. rlorange

    rlorange Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 2, 2009
    Australia
    Well I believe that the FDA rules are fairly similar to ours I know that our TGA pretty much follows every decision and rule your FDA makes, kind of like Tony Blair and our John Howard was to your George W!

    Actually that makes me think maybe its a case of schoolyard one-up-man-ship because we and other governments acted before the FDA on this one. Well I do know that there is a big distinction between the FDA and the TGA regulating something within a country and the rules that govern what customs allows in to private citizens. An FDA ban would only cover the US and Customs would have to have separate rules applied to ban personal imports. It would be overzealous to say the least for the FDA to go to such lengths for Nicotine which would require all sorts of exception to the laws already governing nicotine which is and unrestricted drug. At least thats how it works over here, btw Australian customs are VERY strict and notoriously tight but as long as there is no specific ban then I can continue to get e liquid from overseas.

    OK about the patch exctaraction it is VERY simple and the only DIY nicotine extraction I would consider.

    Please read my posts on this thread...

    Wont let me post URLS yet cos I'm new, damn! Go to the new members forum and look for "DIY e-liquid and nicotine extraction"
     
  5. kinabaloo

    kinabaloo Vaping Master ECF Veteran

  6. rlorange

    rlorange Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 2, 2009
    Australia
    Cheers for that, not long before I can post URL's now :)
     
  7. Terraphon

    Terraphon Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2009
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    hmmm

    If I may...

    The USFDA is, quite simply put, the hammer. When the FDA makes a declaration regarding the legality of a product or drug, it is VERY strictly enforced.

    Something that we have to keep in mind, as well, is that this isn't just an arbitrary crack-down on innocent vapers...This is driven. I'm certain that this crap is being spear-headed by big tobacco and as long as the FDA is getting money out of it, they're going to be on this thing like ugly on...well...ME.

    What's going to happen in the U.S. is that the industry is going to be driven underground for a time. We're going to be making orders from overseas suppliers and hoping that they make it through customs. Lots of packages will be seized and lots of money will be wasted. At some point someone is going to get off of their ... and take the advice I posted long ago, to go through the necessary channels to force the FDA to back off...Namely, get testing done on the products to show that it's safe for human use and then file the appropriate paperwork to become authorized to distribute the products.

    Failing that, there's always the homeopathic path...There's another organization (The Homœopathic Pharmacopœia of the United States) which regulates the use and distribution of homeopathic products. If someone will take the time to get with those people and get approval, they can head the FDA off at the pass, basically wresting control of the products from the hands of the FDA and handing it over to the USHP.

    Of course that would piss off the FDA but...f.ck 'em.

    If this isn't done, we're all in for a REALLY long day. Our products WILL get banned, we WILL have to go underground and we WILL waste a lot of time, money, resources and energy in order to get what we want. In the meantime, companies like NJoy and Ruyan will step up to the plate, get approvals and patents and trademarks and then they will control the entire industry in the U.S. At that time, a 30ml bottle of juice will cost $150, a starter kit will cost $200 and replacement carts will be $5 each.

    So...Once again I say : What are the suppliers, who have been making money off of our addictions for so long, doing for US?
     
  8. Calaban

    Calaban Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2009
    Newmarket, NH USA
    Great question.

    I respectfully, and politely, challenge our suppliers to chime in here....

    Anyone?
     
  9. rlorange

    rlorange Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 2, 2009
    Australia
    I guess things work differently in US. I can't see Customs in here banning personal importation, things are quiet for now and the government seems happy to put the local suppliers out of action and leave it at that. E-ciggies only just caught on over here and there has been no direct marketing by local suppliers while they enjoyed their brief honeymoon.
     
  10. Terraphon

    Terraphon Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2009
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Unfortunately, I suspect that if they do chime in, the responses will not be pleasant.

    I only know of a couple of suppliers that I expect to be honest, courteous and forthcoming, void of excuses and not bound to be defensive.

    If THEY chime in, all is well. Otherwise, I think I'd better put on my fire-suit.
     
  11. Terraphon

    Terraphon Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2009
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Oh, customs LOVES to seize personal shipments in the U.S.

    Like...when Absinthe was illegal...for 95 years...because it was considered toxic...they'd seize it in a heartbeat if they found it.
     
  12. skullsoup432

    skullsoup432 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 7, 2009
    Michigan USA
    The ..... is, it could take years for the FDA to approve any juice. That is IF they want to do a rush on it. If they were to incorporate any obstructionist tactics, it could be much longer. What government agency ever rushed to do something they did not want to do? Unless, of course, they smell money. Yes, we all know that this is unfortunately what it will come down to.
     
  13. Terraphon

    Terraphon Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2009
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Yep...

    Years to approve it but only the time it takes to sign a form will make it illegal.
     
  14. Kobayashi

    Kobayashi Full Member

    Mar 5, 2009
    If you don’t want to get the FDA's attention and get them on the back of our E-Cig situation i would suggest that these NOT be marketed as a "Stop Smoking Solution" Or make ANY health claims whatsoever. If you don’t give them claims to go after its hard for them to make a case. I know this because i am a heavy marketer in the Diet industry in USA. Any claims are heavily scrutinized by the FDA.

    As far as the Nicotine that is a big issue for FDA. I would suggest retailers of E-Cigs in USA, EUR,or AUS to make there "Starter Kits" with 0 (Zero) Nicotine and sell there nicotine carts under a different brands.
     
  15. TribbleTrouble

    TribbleTrouble Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 1, 2009
    Rio Rancho, NM
    Another good source of known quantities of Nic is the carts for the Nicotrol Inhailer. Each cart contains 10 mg of Nic (4mg delivered when using the Inhailer). If you pop out the white inserts in the carts and soak them in Everclear (Pure Grain Alcohol), you can extract the Nic without any worry of glue like with the patches. I have made a few batches, and it seems to work pretty good. Has anyone else tried this?
     
  16. Kobayashi

    Kobayashi Full Member

    Mar 5, 2009
    I have tried EverClear with my own "Erb" to Liquify. :)
     
  17. MonkeyMonk

    MonkeyMonk Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 17, 2009
    Two words: Executive Order
     
  18. leaford

    leaford Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    I've heard the thought before, and it's an appealing idea. It is true that while we can't prove to the FDA that these are safe or effective, a jury could be swayed by anecdotal evidence, and we have tons of that.

    But the problem is, in order to sue, we need a cause of action. We need to prove that the FDA violated a duty they have towards us. The FDA doesn't have a duty to us to give us a way off cigarettes. They do have a duty to prevent drugs from being marketed that haven't been proven to be safe and effective.

    Their decision is not forcing us to go back to analogs, the fact that we are unable or unwilling to quit or use approved NRT drugs is. So we don't have a legal cause of action.

    It IS a nice thought, though. :D
     
  19. KatyS

    KatyS Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    I am a small supplier, been in business since around Nov. I started this to help out neighbors, friends and relatives. My prices are extremely low so I can get this product out at a reasonable price. Every dime I make goes back into product. So for me to come up with thousands of dollars to have this tested and legalized is pretty much out of the question unless, I sky up my prices reduce my quality of business (returns, mailings paypal fees, which I include in my cost). Don't know what the answer is.
     
  20. TribbleTrouble

    TribbleTrouble Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 1, 2009
    Rio Rancho, NM
    I can see how it is a tough pill to swallow for suppliers, but, it boils down to either you pay for the testing now to keep your business through our uncertain future, or you run the risk of losing all business completely with a ban. I see what you are saying, though. It is going to be tough either way.
     
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