Thoughts on the future of (high power) APVs

[State O' Flux]

I was reading a thread about the OP considering the NexGen Futura and a few thoughts came to me... a sort of expansion on an underlying tone in that thread. Rather than post there and sidetrack that thread, I thought I'd start a new, more in focus conversation.

If you have an opinion on this subject, by all means, take a few moments to offer up your views.

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I see the market for DNA chip style APVs as being in a rapidly accelerating, but still state of flux condition... no pun intended. ;-)
To "waffle" on the purchase of a NexGen Futura is, to me at least, not so much the typical ECF indecisive thread, as the common sense part of the OPs brain recognizing an instability, and saying "Hmmm - maybe I should hold off for now".

What with the (Evolv cooperatively developed and instantly sold out) DNA30 chipped Zen ZNA just released, and clones of the DNA in 20 and potentially 30 watt variations coming soon from Asia, the market is set to explode (or would that be "implode"?) with high powered, and in some cases low cost APVs. (As a side note - an off-shoot of this discussion would be the effects that high power/low resistance capable APVs will have on the mech mod market)

Where does that leave those interested in this sort of device, and in particular those looking at the Futura? I think a large number of folks are in a sort of "holding pattern" waiting for the other shoe to drop - so to speak. The Futura, other DNA20 mods like the Cyborg, and perhaps even the ZNA, may become just a footnote in the history of the APV.

Will a "one size fits all" APV, at a relatively low price, soon appear on the horizon?
Will it be Innokin - who has lead the way in low cost, arguably stylish, feature laden devices, or perhaps Yihiecigar - "The Most Professional & Biggest Board Manufacturer for Vapor in China" - or another manufacturer?
Do America and Europe appear out of the running, if only because they can't seem to make anything that doesn't cost over $100... an invisible US market price point?

IMO - The Chinese are no longer satisfied with making decent tube mech clones and 10 cent plastic attys - they want the entire vaping market, and if history is any indicator, they'll have it sooner than we'd care to admit.

Cheers

 

[Tugg n chase]

I hope to see the overall power coming to some sort of plateau. We will get into some scary territory when people without knowledge of batteries, resistance, amps, and everything else that could be potentially hazardous, start using these because they have become too easily accessible. These type of apv's can/will lead to some people hurting themselves and creating even more bad press for a community looking to make a more positive name for itself.
I like having all of the options if you are safe and have an understanding of what it is you are working with.
I still see people sub-ohming on 18350 batteries which is bad enough, but putting 50 watts or more in someone's hands seems like trouble

 

[Thrasher]

I think the whole thing will round robin again
mech's went to vv went to vw and then back to mechs being popular..

Standard resistance, standard voltage vaping led to high voltage, high resistance vaping led to low resistance subohm vaping led right back to standard resistance using microcoils.

at this point the market is running out of ideas and 30-40-50 watt machines will always be a niche market as there are too many vapors who dont even care about hitting the 15 watt limits we have now.

we have to always remember china's primary focus is keeping factories humming not advances in vaping and they will do anything they deem necessary to make that happen. they see the US/EU trends and do their best to keep up and slide things to the direction they "think" everyone wants to go.

without arguing if people can tell or not, the truth so far has been no matter what, those people outside of the chinese manufacturing circles keep coming up with the better quality. and china just does its best to brute force it's way back into the spotlight instead of making a truly superior product. great a 30+ watt chip but at what quality?

so far even the yippecigar or whoeever states on the webpage the chip only does 22watts with a single battery, limits will be reached, can they make a chip push 10 volts? im sure they can but how long will it run? 10 minutes? again certain barriers will keep this stuff from being the norm.
20-30 maybe 50 watts great, VV,VW, now VA or something is coming - yet how many provari's does provape still sell a week?

how good is DNA 30 really going to be? with no real world results it may run 16 minutes at full power and that will still turn many away. except for the extreme vapors people want a mod that runs more then an hour.

china boards electrically still dont match up to EU/US signals, the kick copies still use PWM, they can barely get about 150hz for some reason and they dont make their own designed mechanicals in bulk yet.

 

[emus]

I see efficient small chamber glass tank toppers and slim mech mods in the future.
Optional threaded flush mount micro gauge.
Optional kick.

 

[State O' Flux]

All interesting views gents - with valid points. Thank you for sharing them. Anyone else? Ryedan, Bad, Bill, peraspera, Mike S, Rick, suspect, Tball, Train? ;-)

Of particular interest...

at this point the market is running out of ideas and 30-40-50 watt machines will always be a niche market as there are too many vapors who dont even care about hitting the 15 watt limits we have now.

Do you think there is a large market of buyers that will want the high watt devices simply because they are powerful? The same reason people buy large powerful anything - because they are just that?

And in the same vein...

I still see people sub-ohming on 18350 batteries which is bad enough, but putting 50 watts or more in someone's hands seems like trouble

Taking the devils advocate position - No different than placing a Kawasaki sport bike, a big block muscle car, a powerful handgun or a bottle of bourbon in the hands of a twenty-something with no knowledge or understanding of what they're about. What's to prevent that from happening far more often than we'd care to imagine?

I see efficient small chamber glass tank toppers and slim mech mods in the future.

Although I must admit that I don't spend much time with small devices, I wouldn't mind seeing that myself - in a higher level of quality than currently available, that would have a level of performance on par with larger devices. Perhaps they exist already and I've (or we have) not been paying too close attention.

 

[Tugg n chase]

Taking the devils advocate position - No different than placing a Kawasaki sport bike, a big block muscle car, a powerful handgun or a bottle of bourbon in the hands of a twenty-something with no knowledge or understanding of what they're about. What's to prevent that from happening far more often than we'd care to imagine?

With no regulations....especially out of China....nothing prevents it. I know no one wants to have the government tell us what we can or can't do, but maybe having a few regulations prevents us from having an all out ban

 

[Tugg n chase]

Double post

Forgot how to do quotes

 

[State O' Flux]

Taking the devils advocate position - No different than placing a Kawasaki sport bike, a big block muscle car, a powerful handgun or a bottle of bourbon in the hands of a twenty-something with no knowledge or understanding of what they're about. What's to prevent that from happening far more often than we'd care to imagine?

With no regulations....especially out of China....nothing prevents it. I know no one wants to have the government tell us what we can or can't do, but maybe having a few regulations prevents us from having an all out ban

Interesting that this seems to be moving into a area of what the perception is of what buying public really wants vs. what some think they want... and are willing to provide. Sorry, I have to sort out an issue with my WYSIWYG Editing - all of my "bells and whistles" are missing. Back when I have more editing power. I can't even add a smilie or set paragraph spacing. Booooo!

 

[Tugg n chase]

Interesting that this seems to be moving into a area of what the perception is of what buying public really wants vs. what some think they want... and are willing to provide.

People are always going to want the next big thing, even if it is only one small change.....look at the lines outside an Apple store every time they release something new.

 

[State O' Flux]

so far even the yippecigar or whoeever states on the webpage the chip only does 22watts with a single battery, limits will be reached, can they make a chip push 10 volts? im sure they can but how long will it run? 10 minutes? again certain barriers will keep this stuff from being the norm.

how good is DNA 30 really going to be? with no real world results it may run 16 minutes at full power and that will still turn many away.

Funny how you can seldom find mention of actual run times for a sample output. I was scaning the Evolv DNA30 spec PDF, and didn't see a reference. No point in mentioning those short run negative aspects to high wattage... might be a detriment to sales, eh? ;-)

Perhaps the next application will be for triple 18650s, or dual 26650s... like that big honking club of a mod that you posted about late last week. What was it called... the Big Nasty?

 

[thezoo]

Love the idea of being able to use very low resistances in that i usually vape around 6_9 watts its been 11 years since electronics school for me but if what i remember is correct low res with low watts equals less power consumed to run the device ( the main reason i went from egos to vw devices was to cash in on longer run time between charge cycles ) i have been hoping for a device that can go a week between charges something lik 50000 mah ( seriously i know that would be hard to accomplish but a device that uses the battery lightly would be a blessing even if it means wrapping a half ohm coil)

 

[Vikaernes]

I think we can look to the evolution of damn near every electronic product and see where the future is headed. Much as it has been with televisions, phones, PC's, music players of any sort, etc etc...

More power, smaller form factor.

 

[K_Tech]

I was reading a thread about the OP considering the NexGen Futura and a few thoughts came to me... a sort of expansion on an underlying tone in that thread. Rather than post there and sidetrack that thread, I thought I'd start a new, more in focus conversation.

If you have an opinion on this subject, by all means, take a few moments to offer up your views.

_______________________
​

I see the market for DNA chip style APVs as being in a rapidly accelerating, but still state of flux condition... no pun intended. ;-)
To "waffle" on the purchase of a NexGen Futura is, to me at least, not so much the typical ECF indecisive thread, as the common sense part of the OPs brain recognizing an instability, and saying "Hmmm - maybe I should hold off for now".

What with the (Evolv cooperatively developed and instantly sold out) DNA30 chipped Zen ZNA just released, and clones of the DNA in 20 and potentially 30 watt variations coming soon from Asia, the market is set to explode (or would that be "implode"?) with high powered, and in some cases low cost APVs. (As a side note - an off-shoot of this discussion would be the effects that high power/low resistance capable APVs will have on the mech mod market)

Where does that leave those interested in this sort of device, and in particular those looking at the Futura? I think a large number of folks are in a sort of "holding pattern" waiting for the other shoe to drop - so to speak. The Futura, other DNA20 mods like the Cyborg, and perhaps even the ZNA, may become just a footnote in the history of the APV.

Being one of those interested in this sort of device, and having given thought to, and then passed on the Futura because of some apparent QC issues and the scarce availability of other DNA20 devices, I F5'd my way to a ManCaveMod. I am hoping to get in on a group buy of a DNA30 chip and build my own box mod, and I will probably attempt to pick up another ManCaveMod in DNA 30 flavor.

Will a "one size fits all" APV, at a relatively low price, soon appear on the horizon?

No more than a "one size fits all" car has appeared in the last 100 years. People have their own varied tastes, and I can't see one device being the answer to everyone's personal vapequest.

Will it be Innokin - who has lead the way in low cost, arguably stylish, feature laden devices, or perhaps Yihiecigar - "The Most Professional & Biggest Board Manufacturer for Vapor in China" - or another manufacturer?

I can certainly see them coming out with the VW Beetle of APV's (or perhaps the Honda Super Cub if you lean that way) but again, I don't see any one device being everyone's Alpha and Omega.

Do America and Europe appear out of the running, if only because they can't seem to make anything that doesn't cost over $100... an invisible US market price point?

Meh, kinda. I'm willing to bet that there are more Vamo's out there than ProVari's, but ProVari's are still selling. I don't see that changing, honestly. IIRC, to date, there have been about 60 milllion Honda Super Cubs produced to date - yet people still buy Harley Davidsons.

IMO - The Chinese are no longer satisfied with making decent tube mech clones and 10 cent plastic attys - they want the entire vaping market, and if history is any indicator, they'll have it sooner than we'd care to admit.

Cheers

That should be the goal of any business - you want to put a Kirby in every house, a Ford in every garage, a Carrier in every basement. But it still won't happen, because the vaping industry is too diverse, products are too varied, technology is being approached from too many angles for one competitor to climb to the top of the heap and destroy all those that vie for the throne.

(Of course, I could be wrong. I'm wrong all the time, and it doesn't scare me anymore.)

 

[Technonut]

I have a feeling that 2014 (barring interference from our beloved FDA) will introduce devices which will blow away everything currently available... In design, features, and performance.

We already have this guy being produced:

Then, there's this one, which if successful, will turn the entire industry on it's ear:




The TA-EW Nebulizer, The Mod Of The Future | Vineyard Vapes

This mod is stated to have so many new concepts that I don’t know where to start, or what is real for that matter. I’ve read that it uses no wick, and relies on a vacuum system to load the juice from a 10ml cartridge into the evaporation chamber. That’s right the future is coming. Here are some more “details” that may or may not be correct:


•Powered by a 26650 battery
•55 watt output
•Touch sensitive curved OLED display
•The screen can display; battery%, liquid level, condition of the heating coil, and wattage
•Made of stainless steel, aluminum and carbon
•Made in Germany
•Expected to be released in the second half of 2014


Some new Info:

- 140€ for the aluminum version
- 180€ for the stainless steel version
- 600€ for the carbonfiber version (limited to 100). something with carbon fiber nano tubes. dont know
- it will be build by a german car manufacture but the company name is secret because the patents and trademarks arent save

TA-EW Nebulizer ( Patent pending ) Fan Video - YouTube

 

[MaxPower]

I would say one of the next big innovations that could be made in the industry is to get rid of the wick as mentioned above. Go to some sort of 'fuel injection' system that doesn't require a wick to move liquid to the heating element.

 

[VapieDan]

There is a saying "They will do it because they can". Very applicable to electronics in general and electronic cigarettes specifically. You are going to see many new features and some of them may even be useful. We are seeing cell phone charging now. Automobile remote entry and starting? Built in cell phone? Who knows what else. My fear is it will be a search for a simple to use device that vapes well. I don't know about many of you but I use a limited amount of the features contained in "smart" phone. God save us from "Smart" E-Cigs!

 

[WattWick]

No doubt there will be many small evolutionary steps and the occasional major revolution in the future of vaping. But, isn't that the same as in other markets? Like computers, tablets, TVs and phones. In those worlds, we are always just 6-12 months away from something better coming out. Being on the cutting edge comes at a steep price.

There may be major e-cig revolutions right around the corner, but I have my doubts. We are, after all, nitpicking the rather low power output and capacity of batteries that are... while good... not great. Thankfully we're not the only battery users out there. There's millions and millions of dollars spent towards coming up with the next best battery technology. I believe a better battery technology will benefit us a lot more than the next DNA chip that can handle higher wattages than the previous one. We can only "revolutionize" output so much without revolutionizing the input.

One could always wait for the next best thing. Or one could buy the best there is right now. Or one could buy something that just does the job. ... or any combination thereof.

 

[emus]

Perhaps heating element, wick, air flow, atomization and liquid design will improve in efficiency to the point a dinky batts will last all day.

 

[Conchord George]

The APV/PV end of spectrum has come a long way, and most people are content with the options available.

The real problem, and what discourages many, is the lack of consistency from the things that most trying to quit smoking buy, i.e. clearomizers. I still try all the new ones that come out with my fingers crossed. We all want that "fill-up-and-go" convenience, but it's just not there yet.
I have way too many high end APV/PVs, but to be honest, I'd be perfectly happy with an eGo twist if it had something sitting on it that just plain worked.
The Nautilus is a step in the right direction, but I'm still not getting the flavor I want. It's also big, ugly and expensive. At least there is a company who is actually trying to make things that cape good, so there is a glimmer of hope there.

 

[JmanEspresso]

Evolv is supposed to be coming out with something new this year that supposedly will, "Turn the enthusiast market on its ear, just like Variable Wattage did". Read that on a blog post somewhere.

Im trying to think what it is.. and the only thing I can land on, IF its going to be comparable to a variable wattage thing.. meaning, another way of regulating power, is variable amp. If its something else, meaning, not a way to regulate power, than I am just as clueless as anyone else as to what it is.. but, needless to say, its worth looking out for.


Furthermore, DNA30 is just a stepping stone. Yeah its great, 30amps and can now fire a .5ohm load.. but subohm vaping is growing in popularity rapidly.. now that safe, capable batteries are available nearly anywhere and arent hard to find, and build tutorials are endlessly being uploaded to youtube, and christ the amount of safety and caution the community as a whole preaches... Subohm is becoming much more of a popular way to vape. And not neccesarily JUST subohm, but really, high wattage/high amp vaping.

I dont think we'll see a turn around in terms of what new devices are coming out, until regulated devices can match what a mech does with a fresh battery and a .2ohm coil. Thats really the lowest most anyone builds unless its for showing off your 1337 skills for fun. Once we have regulated devices that can do that(call it a DNA100), THEN I think we will see one of those turn arounds like we have seen with other vaping styles.