To Get a Provari....Or Not?

[PLANofMAN]

A water bath will certainly cool faster than surrounding air. But the coil still retains heat for a while in either instance. What I'm talking about is purported variations in temperature while the coil is under pulsed power and what effect that would have on the coil temperature. If true, this variation could be detected even if the coil was working in a vacuum.

If this is the direction this thread is going, we might as well take it over here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provari/381232-provari-oscope-vs-vamo.html and pick up where we left off. I think the last couple of pages were nothing but back and forths on the subject of how quickly e-juice cools coils.

 

[yzer]

I haven't seen any evidence that the oscilloscope power traces resemble a track of coil temperature over time.

 

[sandt38]

I don't appreciate being called stupid (even in a roundabout way). I've never claimed that the ProVari puts out a flat DC signal. And just so you know (you probably do, though you haven't mentioned it) your eVic runs at about 100 hz.
It also uses a buck and boost technology that isn't found in any other mod. That is part of the difference as well, though it doesn't get talked about as much.

Also, the voltage output on a ProVari is incredibly accurate. If you set it at 4.5v you will get 4.49-4.51v, every single time.

Not having knowledge of something does not make one stupid. I know absolutely nothing about brain surgery, but I don't consider myself stupid. Neither does Mensa . I did not mean to imply anything, but I decided to define it in case you did not know.

One of the most brilliant people I ever met told me after I said "that was a stupid question", that; "The only stupid question is the one that you don't ask". I believe in offering advice and input where I can. So no offense was intended.

Yes, I know the eVic runs at 100Hz, which is why I stated that I knew not all Chinese chipsets ran at 33.3Hz... however I cannot say what other Chinese devices run anything other than 33.3Hz. I never had the desire to learn about any others. The recording, VV, VW, and on the fly manipulation offerings of the eVic interested me. Plus I can learn about battery use, drain, maintenance, etc, while enjoying and expanding my knowledge of vaping... or I should say; my personal vaping habits.

I have had the pleasure of trying a mech, albeit a cheap POS, with a cheap RDA. I did get a different flavor and vapor from it then from my Triton and my eVic. I can't say it was better, but it was different enough for me to decide I wanted to buy a mech. Unfortunately I do not have the resources to just try a Provari to help make that decision. So real objective input is valuable to me.

 

[sandt38]

A water bath will certainly cool faster than surrounding air. But the coil still retains heat for a while in either instance. What I'm talking about is purported variations in temperature while the coil is under pulsed power and what effect that would have on the coil temperature. If true, this variation could be detected even if the coil was working in a vacuum.

A quick PWM signal with a wide duty cycle means less cool down periods over the period of time. This would seemingly translate to a more consistent vape. I can see an advantage of this design. I guess I assumed that all signals would be modulated at 50%, I never assumed that certain manufacturers might vary the duty cycle. But how does this really affect the vaping experience in the real world?

 

[PLANofMAN]

So real objective input is valuable to me.

Well in that case, you might find this interesting:

okay,
so i am the curious type, i decided to throw the evic on the scope to see what was going on. i couldn't take pics because i didn't have a resistor high enough power, so i had to hold the leads on the aga terminals while firing.

so i started out with a battery at %50, had the evic set to 9 w with a 1.8 ohm coil, the evic said it was outputing 4.02 v.
hit the fire button, and got some strange results, for the first second i saw the pulse wavform superimposed on the DC signal with a amplitude of about .5 v then it went to a solid line, at about 3.9 V (DC) I am guessing what it is doing is the buck circuit cuts in at first then switches over to the boost circuit, probably just a linear regulator by looking at the smooth dc coming out.

so, in the boost mode, the evic looks to be just as good as the provari, albeit the voltage is off by about .1 volts. this would explain why in boost mode the power drops off.

then i put a fresh bat in (4.17 v charge) and repeated the measurement. this time i got a clear 100 khz waveform, this time about 1 v pp on top of the dc output, so the voltage was varing + . 5 v above the setting and .5v below at a 100kz rate.

so it looks like the evic is a pretty good chineese apv, you just have to re-adj when the battery gets below the output setting, however, the evic is not cheap. it cost's almost as much as the provari, no warranty/repair service, and is known for it's fagile head construction.

don't get my wrong, i love my evic, i love having all information on one screen and avail with one button press, this was the main reason i bought it.

but the provari wins the voltage regulation contest hands down. I just ordered one today and look very much forward to vaping on it.

A quick PWM signal with a wide duty cycle means less cool down periods over the period of time. This would seemingly translate to a more consistent vape. I can see an advantage of this design. I guess I assumed that all signals would be modulated at 50%, I never assumed that certain manufacturers might vary the duty cycle. But how does this really affect the vaping experience in the real world?

"Tastes great! Less filling!" (sorry, couldn't resist. It's an old inside joke). Vape from a ProVari tastes noticeably cleaner and less burned than the vape from a 33.3 hz mod. Though some people can't taste the difference, most people can.

 

[sandt38]

Well in that case, you might find this interesting:.

Indeed, it is interesting.

I was planning on scoping my eVic today when reading this at work. But I could not find a resistor to do it among the thousands I have in my box.

But when I get my Kayfun I will scope it, and share the capture. I will also scope my Triton VV while I am at it. I will try to get my friends' devices and do the same. I'll try to compile my personal opinions of how the differing output devices affect flavor, vapor, etc. It could make for a really interesting subjective, and objective thread.

 

[denno612]

im not saying that the provari is not worth taking a hard look at ,but really, when you can get 5-6 days easy from a full charge on a mpv and the performence is awsome!, im running a bottom coil tank with a 1.7 ohm micro at 6.5 to 7 watts with 100%vg and this thing rocks for about 4 to 5 days before i rewick and coil,rolling over on the puff counter before i need to recharge! and for $70 plus it comes with a nice tank to boot ,insted of $150 to $200 plus batts, plus ex extensions??? just sayin...
keep on vapin!!!

 

[PLANofMAN]

I haven't seen any evidence that the oscilloscope power traces resemble a track of coil temperature over time.

It's a long thread, and didn't always stay on topic.

Edit: I went back and re-read the thread. You posted in that thread 9 months ago with the same arguments you are using here. If you were not convinced your logic was faulty by the evidence in that thread, nothing we can say here in this thread will change your mind. I will, however, post what I consider to be the definitive answer to your question about coil temperature over time:

I've been following along for a little while and since things have calmed down a bit (and I was reminded of this thread in another thread), I'll weigh in from an un-bias (I dont own a mainstream VV/WW mod) and scientific view.

There is good relevance to the frequency argument. The word that you all are missing is Joule. It is a measurement of heat defined as:

1 watt x 1 second = 1 joule(J)

First the VAMO (or any other 33Hz mod)
Assumptions:
Set at 4.2V_RMS (50% duty cycle)
2.0Ω Coil

Calculations:
1 second / 33Hz = .030 = 30 milliseconds(ms) cycle time

30ms * 50% duty cycle = 15ms pulse duration

We know the the VAMO fires at 6V during the on time.
(Ohms Law: W=V² / R)

6*6 / 2 = 18w

Now that we have the duration and the power, we can calculate the joules.

18w * 15ms = 270 millijoules(mJ) per pulse.

Provari (or any other DC output)
The Provari's frequency is irrelevant. It's a flat DC voltage with a little bit of ripple to it. We don't have to figure out the pulse time because realistically, there is no pulse. So all we have to do is figure out the output in joules for the same duration and compare it to the VAMO.

Same assumptions:
4.2v and 2.0Ω coil.

(Ohms Law: W=V² / R)
4.2*4.2 / 2 = 8.82

8.82W * 15ms = 132mJ

So we end up with 270mJ per pulse compared to 132mJ over the same duration. If we look at the heat output over the period of a full second they are relatively equal, 9.0J compared to 8.82J (the error is due to 4.2V_RMS not being exactly 50% duty cycle). However, burnt juice, even if only 15ms at a time, is still burnt juice.

By increasing the frequency of a pulsed output device, you are shortening the pulse duration and thus lowering the joules per pulse. You will never get equalization compared to a DC output, but eventually the frequency will be high enough, and the joules per pulse low enough, that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Another interesting note is that as the duty cycle increases (higher voltage/longer pulse duration) the difference in joules between the two devices will decrease. Meaning, by setting both devices at 5.0v the difference in the heat output will be less than if set on 4.2V.

 

[cope]

i got it some havent

 

[dam718]

Indeed, it is interesting.

I was planning on scoping my eVic today when reading this at work. But I could not find a resistor to do it among the thousands I have in my box.

But when I get my Kayfun I will scope it, and share the capture. I will also scope my Triton VV while I am at it. I will try to get my friends' devices and do the same. I'll try to compile my personal opinions of how the differing output devices affect flavor, vapor, etc. It could make for a really interesting subjective, and objective thread.

I'm very much the same as you, in that I want to perform my own testing, but truth is all these devices have been tested before. Unfortunately, there isn't a one stop shop digest format to get all the results. You've seen the results of a Vamo and a ProVari in this thread. I know the results are out there for an eVic, MVP, and many many others. Most of PBusardos reviews on regulated devices include scope outputs and metric data for other stats as well. Unless you just want to compile your own data, theres no shame in using other folks results to make the same conclusions without spending a lot of money or borrowing from all your friends

 

[duroSIG556R]

I recently bought a vamo, which worked great for a week. It has since gone to crap and needs to be returned. This is why owning a provari is worth it. Are you going to go through several chinese mods?.....Or just bite the bullet and get something that hopefully won't let you down.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Disclaimer: I in no way am comparing the MVP 2 to the Provari. I wish to own a Provari one day, and am making due with my MVP 2 until that day.

That said, has any one of you ever examined the MVP 2 as you have with Provari? I've seen a flat line in a Pbusardo video, but he didn't go into why it was, or how Innokin did it. I'm just curious.

This is all I know:

The MVP doesn't pulse the output voltage. It gives a flat DC signal which is why It's the second mod I bought...after a Provari(which is still my favorite). Pbusardo put it on the scope. FYI, he also posted on his site that he was told the next MVP will be vv/vw with an ohm meter. That leads me to believe it will run the same chipset as the SVD (33HZ) which will ruin it for me personally.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 2

Edit: Baditude comes to save the day (as usual):

PBusardo did do a o-scope of the MVP v2 and it still shows a flat line like the first version. PBusardo Review of the MVP2.0 (13 minute mark)

What surprises me is Innokin chose to use a 47.2 Hz PWM chipset in the VTR and not the superior chip that the MVP and V3 models use. PBusardo Review of the iTaste VTR

 

[DPLongo22]

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/apv-discussion/507535-provari-worth-yes-i-will-explain-why-facts-not-fanyboyism-plz-read.html

Is a Provari still worth it?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/apv-discussion/427125-why-provari.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/379833-should-i-buy-provari.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provari/458843-im-thinking-about-buying-provari-but.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/445240-please-convince-me-not-buy-provari-yet.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/apv-discussion/464817-another-reason-buy-provari.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/475091-bought-provari-today-heres-my-review.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provari/468135-whats-good-about-provari.html

Oh, Idunno. Prolly not worth it ;-)
{disengaging Sarcasm Font}

 

[RobinBanks]

You already want it. Just get it.

 

[DPLongo22]

My ProVari has become part of me. I would now have to have a Provariectomy should I want to rid myself of it....and my son (over 18) has one on the way because he kept swiping mine and sighing at his Ego battery. I consider that I sacrificed my desire for a second one to the greater good of my son having his first.

I have yet to find the person who regretted buying one. =)

I'm not sure your Provariectomy will be covered under the ACA. Besides, you don't REALLY want it anyways ;-)

 

[DPLongo22]

Pulse width, frequency, AC/DC doesn't matter worth squat when it comes to vapor quality.

The vapor is produced by heat from a heating coil. That coil isn't turning from hot to cold XXX times per second because the power is pulsed.

An electric heating coil will not react instantaneously to the application of current. If you doubt this go to a cold burner on an electric range. Turn the burner to to high and see how long it takes to glow orange. Let it glow orange. Turn the burner knob off. Want to tough the burner right now?

The coils in our atomizers are not turning hot to cold every time the coil power is pulsed on and off. Instead they reach an average and stable heat output while being pulsed. There is no variation in heat output that can vary the vapor quality.

Provari vapor is smoother than Vamo vapor because the coil temperature is somehow more stable? If true I'd expect to see some IR camera or other temperature documentation to prove this.

In the lack of supporting evidence this claim of vapor superiority is busted. Internet rumor. Fanboi ranting.

Damn. I'm rethinking EVERYTHING after reading this. Maybe even selling off, better yet just THROWING OUT, all of my Provaris. I sure wish now that the Sigelei I bought didn't spit-the-bit three weeks in. Or maybe if my throngs of emails to them would be have been answered, and I could have actually gotten the thing fixed, I'd have never even USED my Provaris again.

I learn something new every day.

Question: What did you do with YOUR Provari after discovering the magic of Sigelei? Maybe I'll just do the same.

 

[vonhogslayer]

U can throw them my way!i'll take em...

 

[PLANofMAN]

Damn. I'm rethinking EVERYTHING after reading this. Maybe even selling off, better yet just THROWING OUT, all of my Provaris. I sure wish now that the Sigelei I bought didn't spit-the-bit three weeks in. Or maybe if my throngs of emails to them would be have been answered, and I could have actually gotten the thing fixed, I'd have never even USED my Provaris again.

I learn something new every day.

Question: What did you do with YOUR Provari after discovering the magic of Sigelei? Maybe I'll just do the same.

You'll re-read my edit of post #148, and breathe a sigh of relief.

Edit:...and keep vaping your ProVari's.

 

[DPLongo22]

You'll re-read my edit of post #148, and breathe a sigh of relief.

Edit:...and keep vaping your ProVari's.

Phwew! Thanks PLANofMAN!!!

 

[Baditude]

This is all I know:

The MVP doesn't pulse the output voltage. It gives a flat DC signal which is why It's the second mod I bought...after a Provari(which is still my favorite). Pbusardo put it on the scope. FYI, he also posted on his site that he was told the next MVP will be vv/vw with an ohm meter. That leads me to believe it will run the same chipset as the SVD (33HZ) which will ruin it for me personally.

PBusardo did do a o-scope of the MVP v2 and it still shows a flat line like the first version. PBusardo Review of the MVP2.0 (13 minute mark)

What surprises me is Innokin chose to use a 47.2 Hz PWM chipset in the VTR and not the superior chip that the MVP and V3 models use. PBusardo Review of the iTaste VTR