UltraFire 18650's 3000Mah Unrealiable?

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slantdeyevision

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I currently have only 1 working Ultrafire 18650... bought 2 initially and one stopped working after about 2 weeks. I ordered another for a replacement and that one stopped working after the 2nd charge....

I was just wondering if anyone else has had problems with their Ultrafire 18650's? Does anyone have any other good alternatives to this brand??? Any information will be greatly appreciated... thanks.:(
 

RedAlert

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Did you use a volt meter to make sure the battery is actually dead? I know ultrafire batts are not the best, but they arent horrible either. I'd reccomend the AW 2600 or 2900 (they are rated at true mah, where the ultrafire is more like 2500 mah). If your using it in the phidias in your avatar, it might not be making contact on the battery connections. I'd PM fono and ask him if hes used these in his mod successfully.
 

Rocketman

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I've used the Red and Black Ultrafires for a year and a half in flashlight mods. While they are not as good as more expensive cells, and their capacity is grossly exaggerated, I have not have one fail that I could not attribute to abuse. My wife constantly drops them and the connection to the circuit board is broken. Or the plastic wrapper gets torn and the same thing happens. Even the "bad" ones still charge and discharge but without the protection circuit I just take them out of service. I had one returned that I believe was left in a car during the summer. Still had a charge but nothing to the positive connector. I get several months before capacity noticeably decreases. So far I have about 8 that have been removed from vape service. Again, mostly because of abuse. No smoke, no thermal runaway from any of them. Even the crappy 3600mah (which is worse that the 3000) have not given me any problems. Just don't have anywhere near the labeled capacity. I haven't used any of the plain blue cells and I think they are the least reliable.

The $4 (or less) 3000mah, Red and Black Ultrafire is not a great cell but from my experience it works. I buy them in groups of 4 or 8 or even 12. If you need to run a 20 watt Halogen flashlight, DO NOT BUY THESE.

And if you use a big battery mod, get a DMM and learn how to use it. How can you tell what the heck is going on if you don't measure what's gong on? If you damage the cell don't use it anymore.
 
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mdocod

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The UF 3000 is perhaps the worst possible 18650 that could possibly be selected for the purposes of vaping. Under light loads it is capable of achieving pretty high capacity performance, however, vaping is not a "light" load. Under the typical loads presented by serious vapers, the UF3000s fall on their face, both capacity and voltage under the load drop off pretty dramatically.
 

Rocketman

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Just how dramatically do the capacity and voltage fall off? Got any numbers that represent typical loads presented by 'serious vapers'? Serious must mean 1.5 ohm LR vapers. Because they seem to do fairly well with 2.8 to 3.2 ohm. But, I've been called a light beer vaper for not using LR :) I happen to know what the voltage drop of my UF cells are at 1.5 to 2 amps (cell and protection circuit).
Not everyone needs 3 to 4 amps to their atty. Some do, but not all. It would be insane to try and run a 12 to 20 watt flashlight with an UF cell, just insane. But for us "light beer" vapers, the $3 to $4 dollar UF 3000 is a deal. The sellers that get $10 ea for these are robbing you.

I'd put a UF3000 flashlight mod up against those whimpy 14500 box mods, the egos, or any factory ecig. Is it a great cell? No, not by a long shot. But what percentage of vapers use AW 18650 batteries in mods compared to those that use whimpy little e-cigs? High drain 18650 cells just might destroy a mod if the insulator or atty craps out. The cell might survive, but the rest of the circuit will probably vaporize. Even the battery in an ego can fry circuitry if an atty goes bad.

I must be brave to post this in a "Pro AW" Foum :)
 
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mdocod

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Obviously an 18650 can't be seriously compared to a 14500 of the same chemistry. It's not a fair comparison because they are dramatically different sizes.

See post #17 in this thread:
New 18650 with 3000mAh from KD

Even at 1A they are down in the bottom of the pack for voltage through the discharge compared with most other 18650s. The cell has some extra runtime towards the end compared with other cells, but at a voltage that isn't really useful.

The behavior of the UF3000 in discharge tests like that one I linked to really suggests to me that the cell may actually have a resistor or something installed under one of the false ends. This would have the effect of the suppressed voltage coupled with unusually high mAH performance.

Either way, they're garbage cells. A protection circuit on a garbage cell does not make the cell safe. Quality manufacturing is what makes a cell safe. I'd rather have an unprotected LG, Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony, etc cell than a "protected" ultra-bung-trust-it-to-catch-fire cell.
 

Rocketman

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about 0.15volts difference from the best to the worst cell, reference continuous drain 2 amp graph, 0.5 hours (about midpoint) into drain test. about 0.1 volt difference between most cells (excluding the obvious losers) in the 1 amp test at 1 hour into the test.

That's from the worst cell tested to the best cell tested. How many lumens is that :)

and yes it is valid to compare the UF3000 to other sizes like the 14500 or the ego. We aren't here to see who can blow the brightest cloud of vapor. If you really want an evaluation of e-cig, compare them all. Even the crap 3000 will outperform anyone's ego. It will not outperform a $20 AW. But 5 of them are cheaper and 5 will vape longer than 1 AW. $20 worth of UF3000s will out vape $20 of just about anything.
And has anyone got a documented e-cig fire using a UF3000 cell? I would think it would be a public service to publish that.
 
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mdocod

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How about a UF3000 exploding in a flashlight...

Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

------------------------------------------------------------

Products like the UF3000 would not even be sell-able if people were picky about how they parted with their money and demanded a reasonably quality product. Being cheap is rarely a good excuse to purchase something. Life is too short to wade through the troughs of garbage.

Eric
 

Rocketman

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Thank you for the link. (really).
Three stacked 18650s (about a year old) possibly overcharged by a defective charger, in a flashlight with a possible design flaw (shorts). What type of module did he have in it? maybe I can get the wife to translate the original German thread for me.

Now before people jump to conclusions that this does not relate to vaping, short circuits, overcharging, sealed metal tubes without proper pressure reliefs does relate to vaping. Thanks for the link. But we may never know if another brand would not have the power to blow the end off a flashlight under the same conditions. What ever those conditions were. 3 stacked cells with one bad cell or one reversed cell just may be an explosion waiting to happen as soon as you press the button. If you use Li-ion cells in an extreme situation, get a meter and learn how to use it.

All you stack battery vapers should go read that thread.

Thanks again.


BTW, it was an incandescent 30+ watt flashlight. What's the cold resistance of a halogen bulb that size?
 
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mdocod

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Many responses to that thread about the exploding UF3000s suggest that the series implementation may have been the cause of the disaster. I have been following this type of stuff for years and would be at odds with that position. While the series implementation may have played a role, it would require something else to have failed before the series implementation could have the negative effect.... Allow me to explain:

A configuration of series wired lithium chemistry cells that are properly implemented and protected is only more dangerous than a single cell by a factor of the increased number of cells that are in front of you, having nothing to do with whether they are in a battery configuration or not. The most dangerous situation that can occur with a set of cells in a series configuration is when there is nothing in place to prevent over-discharge and more importantly reverse charge of a particular cell in the battery. A set of cells with un-equal capacity can wind up with one cell dropping to 0V, and subsequently being reverse charged by the other cells in the circuit. Reverse charge condition has been the #1 cause of CR123 primary cell explosions since CR123s have no form of protection.

In other words, the only way in which the "stacked battery" situation can be called the reason for the disaster is if we assume that one or more of the protection circuits in the cells failed. Leading to a cell that saw a reverse charge condition (perhaps many times before the cell finally blew up).

Here's the list of possible reasons that the explosion happened: (there may be more)

1. Protection circuit failed to prevent over-discharge and reverse charge of one of the cells. UF cells are notorious for inconsistency from cell to cell so this is very possible, but the root cause would be a failed PCB combined with enough cell inconsistency (in other words, cell quality related). The series configuration played it's role, but can not be directly blamed because there is nothing unusual about series configurations of cells in and of itself.

2. The cells were repeatedly subjected to over-charge. (but but, they're protected so that can't happen right? WRONG: most PCBs don't trip the over-charge limit till in excess of 4.30V). All indications are that the charger that was used to charge those cells was possibly an early generation WF-139 which continues to trickle charge at a rate high enough to continue to increase cell voltage after the "light turns green." Sounds like the practice of leaving cells on the charger over night may have been commonplace for the user. A higher quality charger may very well have prevented this, however, it should be noted, that high quality name brand cells that are found in most consumer electronics must pass strenuous abuse testing. A modern name brand cell would be much more apt to handle the improper over-charging for many years without incident. In this case, we are back to pushing for quality, better quality cells and better quality charger would reduce the risk of having such an incident by a large margin.

3. There was nothing wrong with the charger or the protection circuits, one of the cells simply "went off" for no other reason than poor quality control and impurities within the cell leading to oxygenation and/or metallic lithium formation. In this case, the argument again says "buy higher quality cells."

Considerations:

A protection circuit only prevents immediate dangers caused by unusual circumstances like a short circuit or an improperly configured hobby charger. A protection circuit can not and does not protect the user from on-going repeated mild abuses that can still occur within the bounds of the protection limits. I see a lot of threads popping up around here regarding "protected" cells as the holy grail of cell safety. In truth, the only cells you're going to find with protection circuits are lithium cobalt cells. An unprotected well made LiMn or LiFePO4 cell would be safer for many PV applications (especially the smaller cell applications, specifically those smaller than ~17500 size).

Eric
 

Rocketman

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Agree that more than one layer of protection is necessary, even if one of those layers are the user and a multimeter.
A 30+watt halogen lamp is not the place to try and save a few bucks on batteries. Hot, the lamp is pushing the current limit of cheap Li-ion cells. Cold start seems to trip the over current on a lot of cells. Isn't it something in the order of 12 amps or more at start up? Good High Current cells should be the only choice for these. Seems these some times need multiple starts just to get the lamp to start up. So I'll stop defending the cheap, low quality UF cells for use in extreme applications. Their low quality is just too big a risk. If your application needs lots of current then it's obvious that you NEED high current cells.

For those that need 3 amps or so, is there a good cell that limits current to 3 or 4 amps to protect the remaining circuitry?
 

mdocod

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There's no need for high current (like IMR) cells to drive a 30W bulb from 3x18650s. A good quality 18650 will give several hundred perfectly safe cycles at a ~1.5C rate or ~4A. A 30W bulb would be drawing less than 3A from a stack of 3 li-ion cells. For a modern set of 2900mAH cells, a 30W bulb setup would be an ordinary 1C load. No problem. The high resistance of the UF3000s in that application very well may have been a contributing factor to the demise of the cells. High cell resistance translates to heat in the cells under operation.

The inrush current to the bulb is something that occurs for a very small fraction of a second. The resistance of a filament at room temperature is many fold lower than at operating temp, so the spike of current is often enough to trigger the protection circuit, but not necessarily for a good reason. It's really not a safety problem. Nothing to worry about there.... The reason so many LiCo cells have protection circuits with limits set so much higher than the continuous safe recommended drain rate, was as a result of market demand for protected cells that could light up incans without having to dance on the switch. As a result of that market response, it would be smarter to think of the high current limit on the PCB as a short-circuit protection feature, not a way to prevent over-current under normal applications.
 

MahBohMan

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I've got 2 ultra fire 3000,'s and 2 ultrafire 3600,'s and they all work great. They hold a long charge, fire my atties beautiful, and give me vapor like a fire extinguisher. So don't theorize unless you have first hand experience. I'll be buying some more of them as well. By the way my neighbor let me use one of his tenergy 2600 mah 18650's and these ultrafires work just as good.
 
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