Understanding the need for a High Drain 18650 batteries in...

[Azn2101]

devices that require anywhere from 15a to 20a. I understand that the amps are essentially translated into the power of the Maximum CONTINUES rating the battery can "discharge" (I dont know if im using the lingo correctly) and the mAh is essentially the ammount of "energy" stored or battery life to be more general but i'm also posting this in hopes that someone will come along and give an extended crash course (on 18650's for Vaporizers of atomizers and a aromatherapy device that requires pretty specific needs in terms of batteries or at least the optimal ones) cause a good guy on a different forum refered me here to learn from the faMous @Mooch and I want to continue my learning for my own safety and actually DIDN'T realize exactly how dangerous Li 18650's can be if not taught to be used, stored, and charged properly (things I didn't do for years until last week.)

So to focus on the main topic, "Why do certain deviced require High Drain batteries?" Well I get that they need them because the (my) devices goal is to be able to go from ambient room temp. to ~340°F- ~430°F very quickly, but I guess im wondering what happens if you use something with insufficient ampage like a 8 or 10 in the device that requires a 15a; What does having a Battery that has more amps than needed do to a device?

Im very interested in this community now but I still don't know the way batteries function other than the layman's know it and some advice on the the top 2 or 3 best options for the 15a Device (or whatever the specs of 30Q's are in terms of amps.) So here I am, i'm sorry for the super long first post but I might as well knock it out of the way instead of trying to "wing it" and information can sometimes be misinterpreted by myself, especially regarding this topic cause I know very little about it.

The device had an option to come with a Samsung 30q (the 30Q is the batt. that's programed into the device's firmware to gauge the batt. life bar but can be switched between quite a few 18650's so it reads out accurately) but I thought one came with it already but learning that it didn't, I scrambled to get some and bought some fake 30Q's, silver linings he refunded me and I bought some Sony VTC5A'S from IMR but am wondering if it's better to buy Samsung 20s's bacause they're a "true 30a battery" but at 2000mAh, almost 1000mAh less than the VTC5A's their battery life might be so low that it wouldn't be smart for my device unless I was close to a charger or carry a 2x pack with me wherever. My last comparison is between the VTC6 and VTC5A's, I went with 3 VTC5A'S just for the moment but am looking to understand batteries (specifically the 18650 format for Vaporizers) so I watched a pretty long video regarding the comparison with Mooch as a guest on someones YouTube Video but because I didn't fully understand what was being said and hope you guys can help me understand.

Thank you guys very much for taking the time to read this and am very happy to join this forum,

Azn2101

P.S. does anyone know if we can expect the VTC6A's this year or next?

 

[Izan]

Hi and welcome,
You can't tow a boat with a motorcycle, no mater how big the gas tank is.
Boat = watts /load
Motorcycle = small engine, low amp battery
Gas tank = mAh of the battery

If the load is large (watts high) you need a powerful engine (High discharge battery) to efficiently handle the job.
The mAh is the fuel reserve. More mAh, longer run time.

18650 = 18mm in diameter, 65mm in length, 0 = round/cylinder shape.

Which battery device are you using/planning to use?
What wattage are you using/planning to use?


HTH
I

 

[bombastinator]

Devices that require anywhere from 15a to 20a. I understand that the amps are essentially translated into the power of the Maximum CONTINUES rating the battery can "discharge" (I dont know if im using the lingo correctly) and the mAh is essentially the ammount of "energy" stored or battery life to be more general but i'm also posting this in hopes that someone will come along and give an extended crash course (on 18650's for Vaporizers of atomizers and a aromatherapy device that requires pretty specific needs in terms of batteries or at least the optimal ones) cause a good guy on a different forum refered me here to learn from the faMous @Mooch and I want to continue my learning for my own safety and actually DIDN'T realize exactly how dangerous Li 18650's can be if not taught to be used, stored, and charged properly (things I didn't do for years until last week.)

So to focus on the main topic, "Why do certain deviced require High Drain batteries?" Well I get that they need them because the (my) devices goal is to be able to go from ambient room temp. to ~340°F- ~430°F very quickly, but I guess im wondering what happens if you use something with insufficient ampage like a 8 or 10 in the device that requires a 15a; What does having a Battery that has more amps than needed do to a device?

Im very interested in this community now but I still don't know the way batteries function other than the layman's know it and some advice on the the top 2 or 3 best options for the 15a Device (or whatever the specs of 30Q's are in terms of amps.) So here I am, i'm sorry for the super long first post but I might as well knock it out of the way instead of trying to "wing it" and information can sometimes be misinterpreted by myself, especially regarding this topic cause I know very little about it.

The device had an option to come with a Samsung 30q (the 30Q is the batt. that's programed into the device's firmware to gauge the batt. life bar but can be switched between quite a few 18650's so it reads out accurately) but I thought one came with it already but learning that it didn't, I scrambled to get some and bought some fake 30Q's, silver linings he refunded me and I bought some Sony VTC5A'S from IMR but am wondering if it's better to buy Samsung 20s's bacause they're a "true 30a battery" but at 2000mAh, almost 1000mAh less than the VTC5A's their battery life might be so low that it wouldn't be smart for my device unless I was close to a charger or carry a 2x pack with me wherever. My last comparison is between the VTC6 and VTC5A's, I went with 3 VTC5A'S just for the moment but am looking to understand batteries (specifically the 18650 format for Vaporizers) so I watched a pretty long video regarding the comparison with Mooch as a guest on someones YouTube Video but because I didn't fully understand what was being said and hope you guys can help me understand.

Thank you guys very much for taking the time to read this and am very happy to join this forum,

Azn2101

P.S. does anyone know if we can expect the VTC6A's this year or next?

Howdy and welcome .

I’m no expert either, but My understanding is it depends a lot on the particular device. With a mech mod you simply won’t get to full heat. In a mech the battery can only give you what it has. In a regulated device with boost/buck you will get pulsing from the device which will change the behavior of the vape and will drain the battery very fast. I could be wrong on this of course.

 

[Azn2101]

T

Hi and welcome,
You can't tow a boat with a motorcycle, no mater how big the gas tank is.
Boat = watts /load
Motorcycle = small engine, low amp battery
Gas tank = mAh of the battery

If the load is large (watts high) you need a powerful engine (High discharge battery) to efficiently handle the job.
The mAh is the fuel reserve. More mAh, longer run time.

18650 = 18mm in diameter, 65mm in length, 0 = round/cylinder shape.

Which battery device are you using/planning to use?
What wattage are you using/planning to use?


HTH
I

I plan on using a Joyetech mod (Im not sure what model as it hasn't arrived yet but its a single batt) with a built in 3 coil heater under the brand Lamart who makes a device named the TUBO Evic from Sweden

In thr manual/faq part it has the batteries that it can accept but only a few are reccommend and their not the newest types lol

 

[Baditude]

It sounds like the device you are interested in is a regulated mod, probably one that uses a DNA-C chip since it can be programmed for different batteries?

An "amp" is the abbreviation for ampere and amperage and generally refers to the unit used to measure electric current.

Batteries are also rated using Milliamps Hour (mAh) which is an easy way to distinguish the capacity of a battery. In general, the higher the mAh, the longer the battery will last. With rechargeable batteries the mAh rating is how long the battery will last per charge. An analogy that is often used to explain this concept is to think of a car’s gas tank. The mAh is the size of the gas tank and the battery’s voltage is how much gas is being used. The bigger the battery’s gas tank (mAh rating) the longer the battery will run.

On to explaining the why for the need for high drain 18650's. High capacity (high mAh) batteries often only have 3 - 6 amps of current. High drain batteries will have 10 - 30 amps of current, depending upon the model of battery. When shopping for batteries, you'll probably see that most high capacity batteries will have much higher mAh than any high drain battery, and think incorrectly that would make them a better battery. However, if the device being used requires higher voltage or wattage output (high drain) in order to function as designed, the higher capacity battery will be inadequate for optimum performance, and could also be harmful for the battery.

A battery doesn't "push" power. In the case of a mechanical mod, the atomizer (coil) "pulls" current from the battery. In the case of a regulated mod, the regulator chip or circuit board "pulls" current from the battery. In both cases, the battery doesn't know if the pull of current is for a coil or electronic chip, it just wants to give away its power to it. If the current draw is more than the battery has to give, it will actually commit suicide trying.

If the current being drained from the battery is more than it has to give, bad things can happen to the battery. It can over heat from all the stored energy attempting to leave at once. Heat is a very bad thing for batteries. It can cause them to vent or release the caustic electrolyte solution in the battery and hot gas, or even worse sometimes a non-reversable reaction that causes the battery to explode and flame (thermal runaway). Li-Ion Battery Chemistries - What are the differences in their safety?

The standard term for rating battery current is the CDR, or continuous discharge rate. Some companies use the marketing term "pulse rating". Ignore that.

Battery pulse ratings are useless! | E-Cigarette Forum
Battery Amp Ratings: Continuous vs Pulse Ratings
​

So for a regulated mod, choose which battery to use based upon the wattage setting that you'll be using by the amp rating of the battery.

WATTAGE PER SINGLE BATTERY on REGULATED MOD:
(Total wattage doubles using 2 batteries; Triples using 3 batteries.)

Up to 45W:

Samsung 18650 30Q, 3000 mah 15 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC6 3000mAh 15 amp CDR

​

Up to 60W:

LG 18650HG2 3000mah 20 amp CDR

LG 18650HE4 2500 mah 20 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-25R, 2500 mah 20 amp CDR

Sanyo UR18650NSX, 2500 mah 20 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC5, 2600 mah 20 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC4, 2100 mah 23 amp CDR

Up to 75W:

LG 18650 HD4 2100 mah 25 amp CDR

LG 18650 HD2 2000 mah 25 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-24S, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC5A, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

​

Up to 90W:

LG18650HB6 1500mah 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB2 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB4 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-20S 2000mah 30 amp CDR

​

Hopefully this was a concise and simple explanation to your question. If you have further questions, just ask.

 

[untar]

It can be inferred from above posts but I'll say it directly:
your device doesn't require anything, your power (watt) setting does!
The battery must be able to supply the power you are selecting, that's different batteries for 10W vaping than for 120W vaping all in the same device.

Baditude's overview illustrates that pretty well.

 

[Azn2101]

Ahhhhh ok the motorcycle/car gas tank reference was a good one as it makes it a visible image in my head. That makes a lot of sense and the device ill be using can only "pull" 70w at a time TUBO EVIC and im glad I got the vtc5a's instead.

 

[Izan]

T


I plan on using a Joyetech mod (Im not sure what model as it hasn't arrived yet but its a single batt) with a built in 3 coil heater under the brand Lamart who makes a device named the TUBO Evic from Sweden

In thr manual/faq part it has the batteries that it can accept but only a few are reccommend and their not the newest types lol

It is a 75 Watt device (Evic VTC mini).

Using the chart above, posted by @Baditude

Any of these are fine:

Up to 75W:
LG 18650 HD4 2100 mah 25 amp CDR

LG 18650 HD2 2000 mah 25 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-24S, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC5A, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

Up to 90W:
LG18650HB6 1500mah 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB2 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB4 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-20S 2000mah 30 amp CDR

ETA: suggest a dynavap!
cheers
I

 

[Azn2101]

Yeah thats where I came from hence why ai avoided using mod as a focus point and more on the batteries function and not the mod (until asked)

 

[Baditude]

It is a 75Watt device. Using the chart above, posted by @Baditude

Any of these are fine:

Up to 75W:
LG 18650 HD4 2100 mah 25 amp CDR

LG 18650 HD2 2000 mah 25 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-24S, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC5A, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

Up to 90W:
LG18650HB6 1500mah 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB2 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB4 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-20S 2000mah 30 amp CDR

@Azn2101 However, for future reference, you don't necessarily need a 25 or 30 amp battery if you always vape under 60 watts. In that situation, you could use a 15 or 20 amp battery and get more mAh for longer battery time.

Just because you have a 75 watt mod, doesn't mean you'll vape it up to 75 watts.

My battery device is a 75 watt and I never vape over 30 watts. I use the Samsung 30Q 3000mAh 15 amp battery and get nearly a full days use.

Choose the right battery for your particular application.

 

[Azn2101]

Thank you guys, all of you and I know its annoying to answer these questions everytime a noob joins so I appreciate this. I think I made the right choice because the problen im trying to avoid is that people will get the "Low Batt" warning when trying to fire to device with a pretty full batt; sometimes he has to take out the batt and put it back in and others he has to switch out the batt completely. From other peoples responses it sounds like its more of a chance that it's a battery problem than the device (as it does have that "artisan" aspect of every device each having its own individual default settings on the custom batt door on the eVic) but as I have had REALLY bad luck lately with the vapes I bought (FIERCE died 2 days after recieving it, Ti Grasshopper just back from its 4th trip in, and I dont want this to be one but if this trend does continue id like to be more knowledgeable so I can answer the manufacturers questions IF something should go wrong with this unit.) The TUBO Evic initially draws close to all 70w's but drops in matter of a few seconds to a sustainable number, I plan on lowering it to either 50w or 55w cause the other 510 atty (Splinter) runs great at about 35w-40w and that seems to be the equivalent of "Device Elongation Mode" but again have not recieved the unit yet. Its more nerve wracking than I imagined about having to learn about TCR mode (my IPV2 has lasted more 4years of absolute tortured use with no batt door and a few layers of OLES screens cracked but all pixels show =D so I had no idea there was a new regulated mode) and now the optimal batteries. Theres been a lot of whispers on every 510 atty forum/ Ecig stores/ Ect. about this VTC6a. Why will it "Blow" every other High Drain battery in its wheelhouse away?

 

[BrotherBob]

Thank you guys very much for taking the time to read this and am very happy to join this forum,

Welcome and glad you joined.

 

[RigBick]

It sounds like the device you are interested in is a regulated mod, probably one that uses a DNA-C chip since it can be programmed for different batteries?

An "amp" is the abbreviation for ampere and amperage and generally refers to the unit used to measure electric current.

Batteries are also rated using Milliamps Hour (mAh) which is an easy way to distinguish the capacity of a battery. In general, the higher the mAh, the longer the battery will last. With rechargeable batteries the mAh rating is how long the battery will last per charge. An analogy that is often used to explain this concept is to think of a car’s gas tank. The mAh is the size of the gas tank and the battery’s voltage is how much gas is being used. The bigger the battery’s gas tank (mAh rating) the longer the battery will run.

On to explaining the why for the need for high drain 18650's. High capacity (high mAh) batteries often only have 3 - 6 amps of current. High drain batteries will have 10 - 30 amps of current, depending upon the model of battery. When shopping for batteries, you'll probably see that most high capacity batteries will have much higher mAh than any high drain battery, and think incorrectly that would make them a better battery. However, if the device being used requires higher voltage or wattage output (high drain) in order to function as designed, the higher capacity battery will be inadequate for optimum performance, and could also be harmful for the battery.

A battery doesn't "push" power. In the case of a mechanical mod, the atomizer (coil) "pulls" current from the battery. In the case of a regulated mod, the regulator chip or circuit board "pulls" current from the battery. In both cases, the battery doesn't know if the pull of current is for a coil or electronic chip, it just wants to give away its power to it. If the current draw is more than the battery has to give, it will actually commit suicide trying.

If the current being drained from the battery is more than it has to give, bad things can happen to the battery. It can over heat from all the stored energy attempting to leave at once. Heat is a very bad thing for batteries. It can cause them to vent or release the caustic electrolyte solution in the battery and hot gas, or even worse sometimes a non-reversable reaction that causes the battery to explode and flame (thermal runaway). Li-Ion Battery Chemistries - What are the differences in their safety?

The standard term for rating battery current is the CDR, or continuous discharge rate. Some companies use the marketing term "pulse rating". Ignore that.

Battery pulse ratings are useless! | E-Cigarette Forum
Battery Amp Ratings: Continuous vs Pulse Ratings
​

So for a regulated mod, choose which battery to use based upon the wattage setting that you'll be using by the amp rating of the battery.

WATTAGE PER SINGLE BATTERY on REGULATED MOD:
(Total wattage doubles using 2 batteries; Triples using 3 batteries.)

Up to 45W:

Samsung 18650 30Q, 3000 mah 15 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC6 3000mAh 15 amp CDR

​

Up to 60W:

LG 18650HG2 3000mah 20 amp CDR

LG 18650HE4 2500 mah 20 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-25R, 2500 mah 20 amp CDR

Sanyo UR18650NSX, 2500 mah 20 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC5, 2600 mah 20 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC4, 2100 mah 23 amp CDR

Up to 75W:

LG 18650 HD4 2100 mah 25 amp CDR

LG 18650 HD2 2000 mah 25 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-24S, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC5A, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

​

Up to 90W:

LG18650HB6 1500mah 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB2 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB4 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-20S 2000mah 30 amp CDR

​

Hopefully this was a concise and simple explanation to your question. If you have further questions, just ask.

I never get tired of seeing this. You the man Bad!