FDA Urgent Action Alert: Contact US Senate Commerce Committee before Wednesday at 2:30PM

[AgentAnia]

Before this hearing, I always tried to be objective, rational, and proportional in my response to these people. That all changed when Rockefeller said:

I think this whole thing is about the money," .... "It's uncreative, nasty and like pornography, or maybe what you [ecig industry] do is worse. I am ashamed of you and I don’t know how you get to sleep at night, and what gets you to work in the morning except the color green. You're what's wrong with this country."

Upon reflection, if I had a chance to speak face to face with the senator, I'd say exactly the same thing to him.

I no longer hold any hope that people like Rockefeller, Blumenthal, Durbin and Boxer will or can be made to see reason. They cannot be changed; they must simply be overcome.

 

[Stosh]

Rockefeller is retiring, just not soon enough.
Isn't nicotine supposed to aid in dementia? He may just need a PV of his own.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

NJOY and Blu were either playing a very well-calculated long game that I cannot possibly comprehend or were ridiculously unprepared. To me they looked like deer in headlights. IMO, they should've known this would be a witch trial and they should've been prepared to sit silently thru the grandstanding, and then retort with short, sharp jabs. I wouldn't have expected many opportunities to score points, but I would've definitely taken every second that they were allowed to actually speak to ridicule the monumental stupidity and unrealistic premisses of the Senators' diatribes.

For example, I would've skewered Boxer when she asserted Pina Colada obviously appeals to kids. Same goes for Bluementhal with his ridiculous posters - ask him what kinds of movies "youth" want and why he thinks WoW appeals to "youth"? How about asking the entire committee to provide (in writing) a comprehensive list of flavors, colors, actors, characters, letters, and/or advertising formats and messaging they think appeal to kids, such that Blu and NJoy may avoid them in their future ads? How about presenting the latest data from the ASH and the CDC YRBS, which show teen smoking at record lows in spite of the claimed ad targeting and the gateway fallacy?

Instead, they just sat there and took the abuse, providing occasional monosyllabic responses and canned legal speak with an eery feel reminiscent of the 1994 BT hearings. Again, IMO, today BV missed a huge opportunity to publicly inject some sanity and common sense into the vaping debate...

I share your sentiment here. Deer in the headlights is a very appropriate analogy. It is just beyond understanding how companies with the resources they have would not have prepared them. If they were playing a long run their facial expressions would have been different.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Ok, I went back and watched the first part that I missed which was just where Boxer started. Having watched it in that order is interesting. Watching live from Boxer on was like watching the Salem witch trials. Then watching the first to that point was a different critter with much calmer, although tense atmosphere. Mr Ballin said that there was a good chance of productive moving forward in discussion without throwing grenades at each other, then just minutes later Boxer launched weapons of mass destruction which was the start of the circus.

 

[Jman8]

Big Vapor needs to play dumb at these hearings because they can't afford to make enemies - they will, after all, be the main beneficiaries of the regulations. As soon as a product area becomes regulated, playing politics becomes far more important than marketing. You can eliminate your opponents in a few days when otherwise that can either never be done, or only partially done by spending a fortune on marketing and waiting years. Tobacco and pharmaceuticals are markets where regulatory plays are far more important than any other business or marketing strategy - and now vapor joins that group.

With this hearing, you now see how ignorant, stupid and crazy the politicians who decide on your life and death are. Rockefeller for example appears to be absolutely barking mad.

But the fact is no one can possibly be that stupid. Ecigs are going to destroy the immense tax revenues, MSA payments, tobacco revenues, pharmaceutical industry revenues (about 15% of their gross, by my reckoning), multiple other revenue channels and 'personal benefits' that fuel the gravy train. Cross out stupid/ignorant/crazy and insert corrupt. These people are totally, completely, murderously corrupt.

I want to like your post, but feel it needs to be explained further. Perhaps not (only) by you, as it would help us politically aware vapers to vet this other way of understanding what we are up against and how it will actually impact us as consumers (who are politically motivated) going forward.

To me, playing dumb on this is akin to chess game we are involved in and moving piece on the board that shows up (to opposition) as, "really, you're going to sacrifice your rook? Wow, you're going to be an easy opponent to beat."

IMO, the opposition here is not these 7 (or so) senators. On the surface, it surely shows up that way. But all 7 could be gone tomorrow, and I think our actual opposition would find way to manipulate Congress to gain support for its position. So, playing dumb isn't just about showing up as docile to these 7, but to the puppet master.

I'm torn on this hearing. I stand by what I said before that it showed up as tame, thus no real reason to be overly aggressive from the pro-vaping side of things. They got to grandstand, vent and on the surface appear like they have some sense of victory. In reality that I understand what vaping is up against, I think vaping won in that hearing. Our oppositions arguments are that feeble and this hearing put that on full display.

Yet, if this hearing is the only time our side gets opportunity to present the pro-vaping side to Congress, then it seems like our side might not have the fight or awareness of allies to overcome what I feel is inevitable push to ban / curtail flavors available for vaping. If I had been sitting where Healy and Weiss were sitting, I'm fairly certain I would've been interrupting Boxer in her diatribe. Not that it would be right to do so (though arguably it would be), but contrary to what I just wrote in previous paragraph, I would want to take jabs where it would be rather easy to shoot down certain points from our opposition. IOW, I would allow my passion and understanding of the issue to counter their passion and understanding and let the chips fall where they may.

As I wasn't there, and probably won't ever be sitting in seat facing national politicians, then I do see both ways of looking at this. And currently, I feel that opposition is the one overplaying their hand and in some cases, we need do nothing for opposition to show up utterly ineffective and out of touch going forward.

 

[SeniorBoy]

For your reading pleasure:

"...Senators on the Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee eviscerated..."

Bolded by me.

Source:
time.
com/2896962/electronic-cigarette-executives-get-schooled-in-senate-hearing
"E-Cigs Executives Get Schooled in Senate Hearing - TIME"

 

[Jman8]

For your reading pleasure:

"...Senators on the Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee eviscerated..."

Bolded by me. Source:

I say break the link of this hit piece.

 

[Kent C]

Before this hearing, I always tried to be objective, rational, and proportional in my response to these people. That all changed when Rockefeller said:

I think this whole thing is about the money," .... "It's uncreative, nasty and like pornography, or maybe what you [ecig industry] do is worse. I am ashamed of you and I don’t know how you get to sleep at night, and what gets you to work in the morning except the color green. You're what's wrong with this country."

Upon reflection, if I had a chance to speak face to face with the senator, I'd say exactly the same thing to him.

I no longer hold any hope that people like Rockefeller, Blumenthal, Durbin and Boxer will or can be made to see reason. They cannot be changed; they must simply be overcome.

Exactly right on all points. If you've seen other hearings, this type of things happens quite a bit when someone being questioned, tends to question their authority or merely disagrees with their views in a more open manner. And even though it's just one Senator, their power to destroy is almost as great as a single tyrant. They can make sure that the 'final rule' would have wording that would eliminate your business. Where, just for example, Healy could continue where Weiss could not. Where Weiss could get an IRS audit and Healy a tax cut. Where Weiss' emails would be subjected to the .... exam to see if what he said in the hearing was consistent with earlier emails going back for years. - This was actually an implication made by Rockefeller and Blumenthal. The 'you're on record' comments. And the questioning about their or their companies communications. (and in all of this, visa versa, where it could be Healy on the hot seat not Weiss).

And even Ballin was 'grouped' with Healy and Weiss by Rockefeller. Even as 'soft' as he was in defending ecigs where he agreed with all points regarding kids but left open the idea that ecigs could be good for public health, Rockefeller, Boxer and Blumenthal, especially but the others as well, would have no part of it. So NO deviation from the Senator's views would not just be 'not tolerated' but attacked with full force. And this may be part of the reason why there were no real ecig advocates there. That and the fact that those Senators simply don't want any opposition, esp. rational opposition to their views.

As long as the Dems have majority in the Senate, we're doomed - or the only option will be the courts. It's what put the FDA in their place in Sottera. It's, without any change in the Senate, where we should be focused, perhaps.

 

[DrMA]

I keep going back to Sen. Rockefeller's own words and can't help but think he had a rare moment of clarity in all that circus, a Freudian slip, and he was actually speaking about himself and his colleagues on the panel:

«I’m ashamed of you. I don’t know how you go to sleep at night. I don’t know what gets you to work in the morning except the color green of dollars. You are what is wrong with this country.»

http://www.kickthemallout.com/

 

[Gato del Jugo]

I keep going back to Sen. Rockefeller's own words and can't help but think he had a rare moment of clarity in all that circus, a Freudian slip, and he was actually speaking about himself and his colleagues on the panel:

«I’m ashamed of you. I don’t know how you go to sleep at night. I don’t know what gets you to work in the morning except the color green of dollars. You are what is wrong with this country.»

http://www.kickthemallout.com/

Psychological projection is the act or technique of defending oneself against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in oneself, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude.

Although rooted in early developmental stages, and classed by George Eman Vaillant as an immature defence...

Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Projection: A primitive form of paranoia. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the undesirable impulses or desires without becoming consciously aware of them; attributing one's own unacknowledged unacceptable or unwanted thoughts and emotions to another; includes severe prejudice and jealousy, hypervigilance to external danger, and "injustice collecting", all with the aim of shifting one's unacceptable thoughts, feelings and impulses onto someone else, such that those same thoughts, feelings, beliefs and motivations are perceived as being possessed by the other.

Defence mechanisms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kent C]

I keep going back to Sen. Rockefeller's own words and can't help but think he had a rare moment of clarity in all that circus, a Freudian slip, and he was actually speaking about himself and his colleagues on the panel:

«I’m ashamed of you. I don’t know how you go to sleep at night. I don’t know what gets you to work in the morning except the color green of dollars. You are what is wrong with this country.»

http://www.kickthemallout.com/

Rockefeller:

"...like pornography, or maybe what you [ecig industry] do is worse."

He prefers pornography over something that could save millions of lives. Hmmm. Okay....

One must assume he knows much more about the former than the latter.

 

[Bill Godshall]

I guess the only good news from yesterday's hearing is that the today's NY Times, Wall St. Journal and most other newspapers didn't bother mentioning it.

Had Healy and Weiss not accepted Rockefeller's invitation to testify, the hearing wouldn't have taken place, and none of the Senate Dems would have showed up to grandstand. Seems like the large e-cig company execs are the vaping industry's worst advocates.

 

[Uma]

Senator Cruz and others have their hands full fighting the dems at the senate meetings concerning their Bill to destroy the Bill of Rights as we know it. (Apologies if this was covered already). It's imperative to write short, factual, condensed easy to read and understand urgency notes.

 

[Bill Godshall]

The AP article on yesterday's Senate hearing is a little better than the Time article, but stated

But there’s not much research on any health risks of e-cigarettes, and the studies that have been done have been inconclusive.

As the Food and Drug Administration considers regulating e-cigarettes, critics wonder whether e-cigs keep smokers addicted or hook new users and encourage them to move on to tobacco.

Electronic Cigarettes Makers Under Fire in Senate - Health - Boston.com

 

[Bill Godshall]

A fairly objective article on yesterday's hearing by Broadcasting & Cable
Senators Find E-Cig Advertising a Drag | Broadcasting & Cable

 

[skoony]

note to self. if a senator ever asks me why my flavors are not in fact marketing to children,i would answer, because my adult customers want and demand them. if i don't provide them, someone else will. its a marketing decision thing.

regards
mike

 

[bigdancehawk]

The media spouts ANTZ talking points like Charlie McCarthy. What is it about the subject e-cigarettes that causes so many people to lose all powers of logic or reason?

The fact that millions of people have been using these things for years all over world with no severe ill effects doesn't seem to matter to them. The fact that just on this forum alone there are thousands of people who have quit smoking using e-cigarettes doesn't seem to make an impression either, nor does the recent survey of 27,000 Europeans which showed virtually no e-cigarette usage among people who have never smoked.

But here are the things that most concern me:

There's not much research on any health risks of eating huckleberries, and the studies that have been done have been inconclusive.

Critics wonder whether teaching Boy Scouts how to start a fire encourages them to move on to arson.

 

[Hulamoon]

ummmm….maybe because the US version of Lords and Barons sees billions of dollars dancing around OTHER peoples pocketbooks. And that converts to "HELL NO! We can't have THAT! Can't have the serfs getting that! That's MY money!" They own the media. The media kisses their feet and does what they're told.

"News" ceased to be, around about the time they started calling themselves the "media".

The media spouts ANTZ talking points like Charlie McCarthy. What is it about the subject e-cigarettes that causes so many people to lose all powers of logic or reason?

The fact that millions of people have been using these things for years all over world with no severe ill effects doesn't seem to matter to them. The fact that just on this forum alone there are thousands of people who have quit smoking using e-cigarettes doesn't seem to make an impression either, nor does the recent survey of 27,000 Europeans which showed virtually no e-cigarette usage among people who have never smoked.

But here are the things that most concern me:

There's not much research on any health risks of eating huckleberries, and the studies that have been done have been inconclusive.

Critics wonder whether teaching Boy Scouts how to start a fire encourages them to move on to arson.

 

[Kent C]

I guess the only good news from yesterday's hearing is that the today's NY Times, Wall St. Journal and most other newspapers didn't bother mentioning it.

Had Healy and Weiss not accepted Rockefeller's invitation to testify, the hearing wouldn't have taken place, and none of the Senate Dems would have showed up to grandstand. Seems like the large e-cig company execs are the vaping industry's worst advocates.

I thought they did rather well under the circumstances. I can't imagine what the Senators' responses would have been had you been there to testify, considering how 'offended' they were with Healy and Weiss and even Ballin. They would have likely had to turn off the tape.

As to the AP's "But there’s not much research on any health risks of e-cigarettes..." That is something they can continue to say for decades. In order to know that cigarettes reduce lifespan by 10%, one has to wait for a few lifetimes to be able to make that assessment. Something that wasn't done in order to allow Nicorette gum, patches or Chantix. Why must that be the 'standard' for ecigs?

 

[Kent C]

ummmm….maybe because the US version of Lords and Barons sees billions of dollars dancing around OTHER peoples pocketbooks. And that converts to "HELL NO! We can't have THAT! Can't have the serfs getting that! That's MY money!" They own the media. The media kisses their feet and does what they're told.

"News" ceased to be, around about the time they started calling themselves the "media".

Although I have great respect for John D. and even David, there is some irony about a Rockefeller complaining about 'profits' esp. one who never really made any and is only the welfare recipient of his father, grandfather, and great grandfather.

wiki trivia:

The Democrats have also had a candy desk since at least 1985. A rolltop desk located on the front wall, belonging to the United States Senate Democratic Conference Secretary, is also filled with sweets. This tradition began "sometime later" than the better known candy desk, and Hershey Kisses were the most popular candy from this desk during the 1980s, "followed by small caramels." Candy for this desk is paid for through a "candy fund" to which senators who would like to partake of the desk's contents contribute. Jay Rockefeller then takes this money and purchases the candy. This tradition is not widely known; in fact, it is so little-known that the Historian of the United States Senate does not know much about it.

Wonder who's going to get the candy once he retires? Boxer? Durbin?