Vape Shops suing to lift bans. Why?

[BigPappa]

I mean I know why and I am right there with them opposing it. I am glad that many have prevailed (at least for now). When I say "why?" I mean that if I were a vape shop owner, I would be looking to liquidate all of my inventory long before May 2020, because at that point my shop will only have 3 or 4 disposable, non-refillable, over taxed pieces of junk to offer with just 2 flavors (tobacco and possibly menthol).

Are they just ignoring the writing on the wall or are they oblivious?

I mean obviously, for some, the bans came out of nowhere and they did not have time to liquidate, and maybe the legal fees were not over-the-top... but from this point on I would be looking at May if I were them and I would get out while I still can (or I would have already done so by now). As sad as it is, I just know that there are going to be all kinds of fantastic sales in April and early May.

Come May 2020, odds are that there will no longer be any vape shops in the US and it looks like online sales will be a thing of the past with the exception of from out of the country (if they will even ship here) and then you're taking the chance of it being confiscated by the FDA.

 

[icepickmaker84]

Everyone is crossing their fingers and toes that the May 2020 deadline just sails by without notice.

 

[440BB]

I expect most of them want to maintain their cash flow as long as possible as they have leases and inventory. Even a few months can make a difference, giving them and their employees a better chance of landing on their feet.

Plus the bans are just wrong.

 

[icepickmaker84]

I expect most of them want to maintain their cash flow as long as possible as they have leases and inventory. Even a few months can make a difference, giving them and their employees a better chance of landing on their feet.

Plus the bans are just wrong.

The ban is definitely wrong! I expect the ban will be replaced with a massive tax addition to anything vape related.

 

[BigPappa]

I expect most of them want to maintain their cash flow as long as possible as they have leases and inventory. Even a few months can make a difference, giving them and their employees a better chance of landing on their feet.

Plus the bans are just wrong.

Yeah, I did not think about leases... that really stinks, especially if they are long ones (which shopping malls and plazas usually have). Ugggh

 

[ScottP]

I mean that if I were a vape shop owner, I would be looking to liquidate all of my inventory long before May 2020, because at that point my shop will only have 3 or 4 disposable, non-refillable, over taxed pieces of junk to offer with just 2 flavors (tobacco and possibly menthol).

Are they just ignoring the writing on the wall or are they oblivious?

Because that fight isn't over yet either. There are suits trying to get the PMTA process changed or at least clarified. So while yes the "writting is on the wall" it is currently written in pencil and they are still hoping for and working to get an eraser.

 

[BigPappa]

The ban is definitely wrong! I expect the ban will be replaced with a massive tax addition to anything vape related.

Well... so far there are only 2 submissions to the FDA for their disposable garbage, and most likely just 2-3 others that will submit that I can think of. This means the market will be solely dominated by just 4 or 5 pieces of junk from mostly Big Tobacco. Odds are that refillables, liquid, the hardware we are used to, all of that will be a thing of the past in the US.

 

[icepickmaker84]

Well... so far there are only 2 submissions to the FDA for their disposable garbage, and most likely just 2-3 others that will submit that I can think of. This means the market will be solely dominated by just 4 or 5 pieces of junk from mostly Big Tobacco. Odds are that refillables, liquid, the hardware we are used to, all of that will be a thing of the past in the US.

Well... so far there are only 2 submissions to the FDA for their disposable garbage, and most likely just 2-3 others that will submit that I can think of. This means the market will be solely dominated by just 4 or 5 pieces of junk from mostly Big Tobacco. Odds are that refillables, liquid, the hardware we are used to, all of that will be a thing of the past in the US.

I personally think the prices we pay now are what we’ll never see again.

 

[charlie1465]

Is it really that bad over there. I thought that it was his the flavour ban not any of the hardware ?

Oh and the recent nicotine tax.

 

[BigPappa]

Is it really that bad over there. I thought that it was his the flavour ban not any of the hardware ?

Oh and the recent nicotine tax.

Come May, all hardware and liquid needs to be approved by the FDA... The approval process is intense and expensive. One company (Vuse) gave their submission just recently and it was over 150,000 pages long. There is no way smaller manufacturers are going to be able to do that, they will just drop the US and focus on other countries instead. We will end up with Juul, Vuse, Blu, Njoy and maybe one or two more as our selection... All junk, and the new tax proposals that are on the floor are crazy... $2780 in taxes just for 1L of 100mg nic.

 

[ScottP]

Well... so far there are only 2 submissions to the FDA for their disposable garbage,

I wouldn't read too much into that. Considering that once a PMTA is submitted, the manufacturer gets (up to) a 1year grace period from that date to continue selling the product while waiting for the PMTA to be processed, along with the fact that there are suits trying to change or clarify the process, it only makes sense that they are all waiting until the last possible second. There is zero reason or incentive to be first in this line and all the reasons to wait until the last possible minute.

 

[BigPappa]

I wouldn't read too much into that. Considering that once a PMTA is submitted, the manufacturer gets (up to) a 1year grace period from that date to continue selling the product while waiting for the PMTA to be processed, along with the fact that there are suits trying to change or clarify the process, it only makes sense that they are all waiting until the last possible second. There is zero reason or incentive to be first in this line and all the reasons to wait until the last possible minute.

But for that year, the only product that mom and pop shops will be able to legally sell is what has been submitted.. i.e.: Juul, Vuse, Blu, Njoy and maybe one or two more... no liquids or other hardware.

 

[Myrany]

Is it really that bad over there. I thought that it was his the flavour ban not any of the hardware ?

Oh and the recent nicotine tax.

Most of the money vape shops make is off liquids. If liquids go away so do the shops.

I read the PMTA documents when they came out. About the only thing that can get through is something like a cigalike or JUUL type pod. Closed system with a limited selection of pod strengths and flavors. With proprietary tamper proof setups. Anything else the testing gets exponentially insane to do and equally more expensive to do.

Imagine a simple device with variable wattage say from 10-90 watts and a 510 connector. For every possible atty that could be screwed on and every possible juice that could be put in the atty (assuming only 1 coil for the atty to make it simpler say .5 ohm). you would have to test every juice ever made in every atty ever made that has a 510 connector in every juice strength made. and you would have to do that for every watt setting possible on the device. Open refillable systems with a common connector just are not realistically possible to pass. The testing alone is impossible.

So that means hardware for refillable systems will be gone as well.

Now the one place SOME people see some hope is that if we are taxed then the government has less incentive to enforce with an iron fist. I think it is a a ridiculously small hope and am planning accordingly for the end of open system vaping.

Vape shops as we know them will be a thing of the past.

 

[ScottP]

But for that year, the only product that mom and pop shops will be able to legally sell is what has been submitted.. i.e.: Juul, Vuse, Blu, Njoy and maybe one or two more... no liquids or other hardware.

Hide and watch how many submissions get made in the last 24 hours leading up to the deadline. I suspect it will be more than what you expect. There is too much money on the table for everyone to pass up. Again there is no reason for them to submit early when they get the maximum grace period by waiting until the last minute. Not to mention that it would be really bad if someone submitted their PMTA now only to find out later that the suits were able to get costs lowered, or some more streamlined path.

 

[Eskie]

But for that year, the only product that mom and pop shops will be able to legally sell is what has been submitted.. i.e.: Juul, Vuse, Blu, Njoy and maybe one or two more... no liquids or other hardware.

Any product which files for a PMTA, or asks for a waiver or offers a partial application to be amended that's accepted, gets to continue to sell for a one year period, or until the FDA rejects the application. So any juice and hardware manufacturers that file can still have their offerings sold in retail stores for that year. IF those companies file, mom & pop stores would still have products to sell.

 

[Zaryk]

Any product which files for a PMTA, or asks for a waiver or offers a partial application to be amended that's accepted, gets to continue to sell for a one year period, or until the FDA rejects the application. So any juice and hardware manufacturers that file can still have their offerings sold in retail stores for that year. IF those companies file, mom & pop stores would still have products to sell.

With as fast as this industry moves, I could see a "file and forget it" attitude actually being somewhat effective for some products. By the time it passes or fails, they are already on to the next thing anyway.

 

[NGAHaze]

We will end up with Juul, Vuse, Blu, Njoy and maybe one or two more as our selection

Not to worry, we have those devices that are 'grandfathered' in too!



I suspect this is the only product that qualifies for grandfathering ...

NY M85579

August 22, 2006

CLA-2-85:RR:NC:N1:112 M85579

CATEGORY: Classification

TARIFF NO.: 8543.89.9795; 3824.90.2800

Mark Weiss
Weiss & Moy, P.C.
4204 N. Brown Avenue
Scottsdale, AZ 85251-3914

RE: The tariff classification of a nicotine inhaler and parts from China

Dear Mr. Weiss,

In your letter dated July 20, 2006, you requested a tariff classification ruling.

The items concerned are the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette and the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette cartridge. The Cigarette is a spherical, metal tube with a plastic mouthpiece tip on the end which measures approximately 5 ½” in length. Inside the tube are a sensor, electronic atomizer, integrated circuits and a lithium ion battery. The spherical cartridge is attached to a plastic mouthpiece tip and contains nicotine and propylene glycol.


The purpose of the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette is to act as a nicotine inhaler that has atomized smoke being forced out of the plastic mouthpiece tip.

You state that the these items will be marketed in five, different packages:

1. Electronic cigarette with two rechargeable 3.7-volt batteries
2. Electronic cigarette with two rechargeable 3.7-volt batteries and five cartridges
3. Five cartridges, ten cartridges and twenty cartridges

The applicable classification subheading for the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette with batteries and the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette with batteries and cartridges will be 8543.89.9795, Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (HTSUS), which provides for “Electrical … apparatus, having individual functions, not specified or included elsewhere ... : Other … apparatus: Other: Other: Other: Other: Other”. The rate of duty will be 2.6%.

The applicable classification subheading for the packages of five Cartridges, ten Cartridges and twenty Cartridges will be 3824.90.2800, Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (HTSUS), which provides for “ … preparations of the chemical or allied industries … , not elsewhere specified or included: Other: Other: Mixtures containing 5 percent or more by weight of one or more aromatic or modified aromatic substances: Other”. The rate of duty will be 6.5%.

Duty rates are provided for your convenience and are subject to change. The text of the most recent HTS and the accompanying duty rates are provided on World Wide Web at http://www.usitc.gov/tata/hts/.

This ruling is being issued under the provisions of Part 177 of the Customs Regulations (19 C.F.R. 177).

A copy of the ruling or the control number indicated above should be provided with the entry documents filed at the time this merchandise is imported. If you have any questions regarding the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette, contact National Import Specialist Richard Laman at 646-733-3017. If you have any questions regarding the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette cartridge, contact National Import Specialist Richard Dunkel at 646-733-3032.


Sincerely,


Robert B. Swierupski
Director,
National Commodity
Specialist Division

Yay, cigalikes for everyone!!

 

[englishmick]

Not to worry, we have those devices that are 'grandfathered' in too!



I suspect this is the only product that qualifies for grandfathering ...

NY M85579

August 22, 2006

CLA-2-85:RR:NC:N1:112 M85579

CATEGORY: Classification

TARIFF NO.: 8543.89.9795; 3824.90.2800

Mark Weiss
Weiss & Moy, P.C.
4204 N. Brown Avenue
Scottsdale, AZ 85251-3914

RE: The tariff classification of a nicotine inhaler and parts from China

Dear Mr. Weiss,

In your letter dated July 20, 2006, you requested a tariff classification ruling.

The items concerned are the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette and the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette cartridge. The Cigarette is a spherical, metal tube with a plastic mouthpiece tip on the end which measures approximately 5 ½” in length. Inside the tube are a sensor, electronic atomizer, integrated circuits and a lithium ion battery. The spherical cartridge is attached to a plastic mouthpiece tip and contains nicotine and propylene glycol.


The purpose of the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette is to act as a nicotine inhaler that has atomized smoke being forced out of the plastic mouthpiece tip.

You state that the these items will be marketed in five, different packages:

1. Electronic cigarette with two rechargeable 3.7-volt batteries
2. Electronic cigarette with two rechargeable 3.7-volt batteries and five cartridges
3. Five cartridges, ten cartridges and twenty cartridges

The applicable classification subheading for the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette with batteries and the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette with batteries and cartridges will be 8543.89.9795, Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (HTSUS), which provides for “Electrical … apparatus, having individual functions, not specified or included elsewhere ... : Other … apparatus: Other: Other: Other: Other: Other”. The rate of duty will be 2.6%.

The applicable classification subheading for the packages of five Cartridges, ten Cartridges and twenty Cartridges will be 3824.90.2800, Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (HTSUS), which provides for “ … preparations of the chemical or allied industries … , not elsewhere specified or included: Other: Other: Mixtures containing 5 percent or more by weight of one or more aromatic or modified aromatic substances: Other”. The rate of duty will be 6.5%.

Duty rates are provided for your convenience and are subject to change. The text of the most recent HTS and the accompanying duty rates are provided on World Wide Web at http://www.usitc.gov/tata/hts/.

This ruling is being issued under the provisions of Part 177 of the Customs Regulations (19 C.F.R. 177).

A copy of the ruling or the control number indicated above should be provided with the entry documents filed at the time this merchandise is imported. If you have any questions regarding the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette, contact National Import Specialist Richard Laman at 646-733-3017. If you have any questions regarding the Ruyan Electronic Cigarette cartridge, contact National Import Specialist Richard Dunkel at 646-733-3032.


Sincerely,


Robert B. Swierupski
Director,
National Commodity
Specialist Division

Yay, cigalikes for everyone!!

Amazing. Is this still currently on sale? Don't they need to have been continuously on sale to qualify.

 

[BigPappa]

Amazing. Is this still currently on sale? Don't they need to have been continuously on sale to qualify.

The FDA said there was one device that met the criteria, but they did not specify which one... It's just a guessing game at this point, but it will for sure be something crappy like a cigalike.

 

[NGAHaze]

Amazing. Is this still currently on sale? Don't they need to have been continuously on sale to qualify.

I'm not sure about that honestly. However, I thought others could be exempted as well if they could prove substantial equivalence.