Vape Shops suing to lift bans. Why?

[Eskie]

I'm not sure about that honestly. However, I thought others could be exempted as well if they could prove substantial equivalence.

They wouldn't be exempted, but could file an SE application, which is easier than a PMTA. However, they'd need to actually find that product, if it's even still in production or available on the face of the earth (and sold on the US retail market prior to 2007), to test next to their product to demonstrate substantial equivalence.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

If I owned a vape shop I would've been completely out of the business over a year ago and on to something else.

Sinking ships are not a good business model, throwing everything you have & will have for 5 or more years at a sinking ship to hopefully keep it afloat for a while is a strange use of capital.

Sure, if some magic happens and the powers that be completely reverse everything, you might be sitting pretty.

That's called gambling, if I wanted to take that type of risk there are casino's where you can live large & eat well while you watch your money dwindle.

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

If I'm reading the regs right, there's a second way to get approved, but you've also got to be second in line... SE or Significant Equivalency... that is, if a product can be shown to be virtually the same as an approved product, the criteria for testing and approval are MUCH less demanding. So, if just ONE liquid makes it through, all eliquids could possibly apply for SE exceptions. If ONE mod... ONE tank... and so on and so forth. So, waiting and fighting may prove to be worth it provided you can last that long...

 

[Astron]

Any product which files for a PMTA, or asks for a waiver or offers a partial application to be amended that's accepted, gets to continue to sell for a one year period, or until the FDA rejects the application. So any juice and hardware manufacturers that file can still have their offerings sold in retail stores for that year. IF those companies file, mom & pop stores would still have products to sell.

Please forgive my ignorance, I am a total layperson and have a hard time understanding these things.

Does this suggest that a one-year reprieve means businesses could stay open with whatever products that have been submitted for the PMTA to sell? Then why are some of us stocking up like May 2020 is the endgame? (Again - I am asking honestly and out of ignorance)

 

[NGAHaze]

Does this suggest that a one-year reprieve means businesses could stay open with whatever products that have been submitted for the PMTA to sell? Then why are some of us stocking up like May 2020 is the endgame? (Again - I am asking honestly and out of ignorance)

Yes, products that have submitted a PMTA to the FDA can still sell their product(s) for up to a year OR until their application is denied.

Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing who has or will submit an application and judging by how the FDA has acted in the past, you have to assume that the majority will not be accepted.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

 

[sofarsogood]

Please forgive my ignorance, I am a total layperson and have a hard time understanding these things.

Does this suggest that a one-year reprieve means businesses could stay open with whatever products that have been submitted for the PMTA to sell? Then why are some of us stocking up like May 2020 is the endgame? (Again - I am asking honestly and out of ignorance)

Nothing can be said with confidence because the authority given to the FDA amounts to absolute power, which, usually corrupts absolutely. They can change the ground rules any time for any reason, break any promise, revise any guideline. I would abolish the FDA tomorrow if I could, tear down their facilities and plow the earth with salt.

 

[Baditude]

Although there is certainly plenty of vape shops that got into the business simply as a business, there are also many vape shop owners who opened their shop because of what they believe to be a "calling" or "mission". They truly believe that vaping saved their life, and hope to pass on that belief on to current smokers and those already vaping.

[/QUOTE]

 

[ScottP]

I would abolish the FDA tomorrow if I could, tear down their facilities and plow the earth with salt.

As much as I hate what they are doing to ecigs, I absolutely do appreciate what they do for my food. No, everything we eat is not 100% perfect, but it's a damn sight better than it would be without their regs and inspections. Same goes for a lot of medications. Again not perfect, and a lot of dangerous stuff gets approved, but at least I know that if I buy a bottle of 500mg acetaminophen tablets that I have a high degree of assurance that each tablet does indeed contain 500mg of acetaminophen. The same cannot be said of non-FDA regulated dietary supplements. I do wish there was a way to stamp out the cronyism and corruption in the FDA though.

 

[Flt Simulation]

Question .....

I make my own juice ... After this May 2010 deadline, do you think we will still be able to buy unflavored Nic base liquid ?

 

[ScottP]

Question .....

I make my own juice ... After this May 2010 deadline, do you think we will still be able to buy unflavored Nic base liquid ?

I am not 100% sure either way, but I >THINK< these regs only apply to "ready to use" products. Which means that nic base should be safe for now. I could be completely wrong here. If I am, someone please correct me.

Nic stored properly in a freezer seems to last a really really long time if not indefinitely. So the smart play is to stock up while you know for sure you can get it. Better safe than sorry.

PS: May 2010 was a while ago.

 

[zoiDman]

I mean I know why and I am right there with them opposing it. I am glad that many have prevailed (at least for now). When I say "why?" I mean that if I were a vape shop owner, I would be looking to liquidate all of my inventory long before May 2020, because at that point my shop will only have 3 or 4 disposable, non-refillable, over taxed pieces of junk to offer with just 2 flavors (tobacco and possibly menthol).

Are they just ignoring the writing on the wall or are they oblivious?

I mean obviously, for some, the bans came out of nowhere and they did not have time to liquidate, and maybe the legal fees were not over-the-top... but from this point on I would be looking at May if I were them and I would get out while I still can (or I would have already done so by now). As sad as it is, I just know that there are going to be all kinds of fantastic sales in April and early May.

Come May 2020, odds are that there will no longer be any vape shops in the US and it looks like online sales will be a thing of the past with the exception of from out of the country (if they will even ship here) and then you're taking the chance of it being confiscated by the FDA.

At what Point do people just Stand Up and say Enough is Enough?

I mean, forget about the Lease you Can't Break. Or the employees you have to Let Go. Or the Inventory that is going to be Lost. At What Point does One Say this Isn't the America I want to Live in?

Where Governors are elected as Kings. Who can Subvert the Law at their Pleasure. And State Agencies can Go Around the System if the Ends Justifies their Means?

If No One ever Draws a Line, there is Never a Line to Step Over.

 

[sofarsogood]

Question .....

I make my own juice ... After this May 2010 deadline, do you think we will still be able to buy unflavored Nic base liquid ?

A few days ago the House Ways and Means committee debated a bill to tax nicotine in vape stuff and voted to send it to the floor for a vote. It would put a $2,700 tax on a $50 bottle of nic. There are lots of steps and my bet is it's a dead duck as far as every becoming law but my view is anyone intending to be a lifelong vaper should be mixing and rebuilding, have nic in the freezer and some extra hardware.

When I started mixing 4 years ago it was amazing to discover that I was making my liquid for 1 cent per ml, cost of ingredients. 5 years ago smoking a carton a week cost $3,000 a year. Today a year supply of eliquid costs less than $30, an astronomical 2 orders of magnitude difference. Vaping is free.

It wouldn't take much of a tax to create a Black Market and any tax on the low side would fall far short of replacing the cigarette tax. I believe the objective is to ban vaping as heat not burn becomes available. For instance Iqos refills are modified cigarettes which will pay the same tax as cigarettes. This is the solution governments are going to favor. Follow the money.

 

[ScottP]

It would put a $2,700 tax on a $50 bottle of nic.

Holy s***, that isn't a tax. That is outright extortion, theft even. Can you imagine if they tried to add a $2700 tax to a $50 carton of cigarettes?

 

[rosesense]

Please forgive my ignorance, I am a total layperson and have a hard time understanding these things.

Does this suggest that a one-year reprieve means businesses could stay open with whatever products that have been submitted for the PMTA to sell? Then why are some of us stocking up like May 2020 is the endgame? (Again - I am asking honestly and out of ignorance)

I believe we are stocking up because it costs so much to even file a PMTA that we don't expect a lot of people to do it. So they couldn't continue to sell and we couldn't continue to buy.

 

[gerrymi]

Vape shops as we know them will be a thing of the past.

I have...at least (I've never counted)...6 apparently active (I've never visited one) B&M vape shops within a 5 mile radius of my home...

This is with Wonderful Pennsylvania's Aug. 2016 40% tax on all vape products...

..

 

[Astron]

I believe we are stocking up because it costs so much to even file a PMTA that we don't expect a lot of people to do it. So they couldn't continue to sell and we couldn't continue to buy.

That explanation, along with the others, works for me.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Nothing can be said with confidence because the authority given to the FDA amounts to absolute power, which, usually corrupts absolutely. They can change the ground rules any time for any reason, break any promise, revise any guideline. I would abolish the FDA tomorrow if I could, tear down their facilities and plow the earth with salt.

And replace it with what .. ?? The very name :: Food & Drug, requires that they be flexible as things change .. we may not like our little niche area in their perusal, however, I for one, would rather have them around than not ..

 

[440BB]

PMTAs are only applicable to products that were "on the market" by August 8, 2016. Anything "on the market" after that date would need to prove they were substantially equivalent to those earlier products or apply as an entirely new product. I believe the requirements for substantial equivalence are much less, while a new product's are even tougher.

It appears to me that there is no way an open system style of vape can obtain PMTA approval based on the complex testing requirements of every possibility. How many manufacturers that see no chance of approval would invest in applying if it only gave them a one year window?

If no open system style gets submitted, they will have to be off the retail market next May.

Even worse, nothing can then piggyback on an approved open system device for the simpler substantial equivalence.

That's how I see things turning out and why I am stocked up. I like my style of vaping.

I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Rossum]

Vape shops as we know them will be a thing of the past.

But Smoke Shops will not, and most smoke shops these days also sell some vape goods. It would not surprise me to see some of them continue to sell vape goods, that they keep under the counter, or in a back room, to their regular customer base.

 

[Rossum]

With as fast as this industry moves, I could see a "file and forget it" attitude actually being somewhat effective for some products. By the time it passes or fails, they are already on to the next thing anyway.

The life cycle for hardware is indeed quite short, but not so for juice. I mean except for salt-nic juices (just about all of which are technically already illegal because they were introduced after 2016-08-08), juice recipes really haven't changed much in the years I've been vaping.

 

[Rossum]

If I owned a vape shop I would've been completely out of the business over a year ago and on to something else.

Sinking ships are not a good business model, throwing everything you have & will have for 5 or more years at a sinking ship to hopefully keep it afloat for a while is a strange use of capital.

Sure, if some magic happens and the powers that be completely reverse everything, you might be sitting pretty.

That's called gambling, if I wanted to take that type of risk there are casino's where you can live large & eat well while you watch your money dwindle.

As long as a business remains profitable, why would you close it? Sell it to someone else, maybe, but closing a profitable business is just silly.

And of course as @Baditude mentioned, some people aren't in the vape business primarily for the money. The altruists will continue until forced to close.