Vape Shops suing to lift bans. Why?

[Rossum]

Question .....

I make my own juice ... After this May 2010 deadline, do you think we will still be able to buy unflavored Nic base liquid ?

Impossible to say with any real certainty. Personally, I'm sure not counting on it.

I am not 100% sure either way, but I >THINK< these regs only apply to "ready to use" products.

They do not apply to unfinished products sold to FDA-registered tobacco products manufacturers. However, if that nic base is sold to consumers (or anyone else who isn't an FDA-registered manufacturer), I think the FDA might just decided that the PMTA process applies.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Not to be an ..., the lease & space can be used for another business, the employees still needed, the inventory can be liquidated before regulation prevents it.
One local vape shop that closed almost 3 years ago reopened as tea shop, high dollar imported tea's & tea accessories, the owners doubled their profit over the vape shop.
The one that went out a little over a year ago reopened as a smoke & head shop, in a state where 'it' isn't legal & probably will be one of the last to become legal, had to hire 2 more employees. They don't sell 'normal' vaping pieces & parts.

What other completely unregulated businesses have storefronts.
Besides scams / shady business how many people earn a living in an unregulated market of any kind.

Vaping can be turned off like a light switch if 'they' wanted to. ' They ' already know this.
What they want is the missing MSA money and a guaranteed money stream from a source already deemed a tobacco product, via further regulation & taxation.

Folks talking about black market, stockpiling, rebuilables are being short sighted.

When you buy nicotine you use credit cards & delivery addresses.

Pesticides & herbicides as they become restricted use or prohibited use, fertilizers in certain compositions & amounts for example.
Real simple and 'they' do, do it every day. Sure they miss quite a few, but, how many have a gallon of a prohibited or restricted pesticide or whatever sitting around you bought with a credit card & had delivered.

If they chose, your freezer is not 'safe'.

6 miles off the nearest paved road, 31 miles from the nearest town of a 1000 or more, stuff handed down by my dad or uncles some of it 40 or more years ago, some stuff I bought with the proper licensing, nope, you don't play billy bob badass or word games, get cute or talk whataboutizms.
If nicotine gets handled like restricted use ag chemicals, its done and so is your stash, credit cards, address & proclaiming online I got this much for this price from this place = bye, bye.

 

[BigPappa]

A few days ago the House Ways and Means committee debated a bill to tax nicotine in vape stuff and voted to send it to the floor for a vote. It would put a $2,700 tax on a $50 bottle of nic. There are lots of steps and my bet is it's a dead duck as far as every becoming law but my view is anyone intending to be a lifelong vaper should be mixing and rebuilding, have nic in the freezer and some extra hardware.

With the current climate, I think it's quite possible it will pass.

Holy s***, that isn't a tax. That is outright extortion, theft even. Can you imagine if they tried to add a $2700 tax to a $50 carton of cigarettes?

That's a 1 liter bottle of 100mg, not an end user lower nic mix.

 

[BigPappa]

But Smoke Shops will not, and most smoke shops these days also sell some vape goods. It would not surprise me to see some of them continue to sell vape goods, that they keep under the counter, or in a back room, to their regular customer base.

They could get the nic pre-tax from US suppliers, just as they do cigarettes, and mix it themselves. The problem with that though is how would they get their hardware if no one is willing to ship to the US? All it would take is a few confiscated orders before the hold outs still willing to ship throw in the towel.

 

[Zaryk]

The life cycle for hardware is indeed quite short, but not so for juice. I mean except for salt-nic juices (just about all of which are technically already illegal because they were introduced after 2016-08-08), juice recipes really haven't changed much in the years I've been vaping.

The hardware was the "some" I was referring to. The juice and replacement coils is absolutely the rest that won't really work with method I mentioned.

 

[Rossum]

If they chose, your freezer is not 'safe'.

Sorry, but I'm not going to worry about that. Even during Prohibition, booze stashes that were legally acquired before the Volstead Act went into effect were totally legal to keep and consume. Heck, US Presidents (Wilson and Harding) moved large personal stashes into and out of the White House with them.

There are all kinds of things that could happen if "they" choose to, but the first thing you have to ask is whether it's worth it to them to bother, and in this case, I simply don't think it is.

 

[ScottP]

Impossible to say with any real certainty. Personally, I'm sure not counting on it.

They do not apply to unfinished products sold to FDA-registered tobacco products manufacturers. However, if that nic base is sold to consumers (or anyone else who isn't an FDA-registered manufacturer), I think the FDA might just decided that the PMTA process applies.

Maybe, but I haven't seen anything about this mentioned in anything yet. I am not sure they can retroactively broaden the scope without extending the deadline to allow the newly affected products the same time to submit.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Sorry, but I'm not going to worry about that. Even during Prohibition, booze stashes that were legally acquired before the Volstead Act went into effect were totally legal to keep and consume. Heck, US Presidents (Wilson and Harding) moved large personal stashes into and out of the White House with them.

There are all kinds of things that could happen if "they" choose to, but the first thing you have to ask is whether it's worth it to them to bother, and in this case, I simply don't think it is.

I never said they would, just that they could, and they already have people that do the job.
If you feel warm & cozy, no skin off my nose.

Booze & prohibition is nothing like modern day chemical regulations and how they do enforce them.

 

[ScottP]

That's a 1 liter bottle of 100mg, not an end user lower nic mix.

I know. I just compared it to a carton of cigs due to the similar cost.

 

[ScottP]

I never said they would, just that they could, and they already have people that do the job.
If you feel warm & cozy, no skin off my nose.

Booze & prohibition is nothing like modern day chemical regulations and how they do enforce them.

Except that there is currently no law, no regulation, and nothing even so much as proposed at the federal level or the state level that makes POSESSION illegal. All that is addressed or being addressed is "sales of". So if it's in your freezer and you are not mixing it up and selling it, then they CANNOT AND WILL NOT be raiding your home.

 

[BigPappa]

Question .....

I make my own juice ... After this May 2010 deadline, do you think we will still be able to buy unflavored Nic base liquid ?

I am not counting on it. I have 15.5L of 100mg that I have stocked up on.

If they have to approve regular end user nic, I would think they would also need to approve unflavored 100mg, which I just do not see them doing as that would not "cause less harm" than a cigarette if a user decided to vape it without properly mixing it. Between that and the possible $2780 tax on a liter of 100mg I am taking no chances and have stocked up. I plan on getting another 2L just for good measure.

 

[DaveP]

My projection for my two liters of 100mg/ml nic base says 18 years, but I'm thinking hard about buying an extra liter for overkill.

 

[BigPappa]

So if it's in your freezer and you are not mixing it up and selling it, then they CANNOT AND WILL NOT be raiding your home.

Yeah... My father used to grow his own tobacco in the backyard and used it to roll his own cigarettes. He contacted the appropriate agencies prior to doing that and they said it was no problem as long as it was for personal consumption and was not being re-sold.

 

[BigPappa]

My projection for my two liters of 100mg/ml nic base says 18 years, but I'm thinking hard about buying an extra liter for overkill.

Figuring an average life of 78, if you are around 60 years old, you're probably ok... unless you live beyond that. If I were you I would get some extra, that way 18 years from now you won't be mad that you are still alive. lol

 

[Rossum]

Figuring an average life of 78, if you are around 60 years old, you're probably ok... unless you live beyond that. If I were you I would get some extra, that way 18 years from now you won't be mad that you are still alive. lol

I've said this many times: I would hate to wake up one morning, 20-some years in the future, wishing I had bought more when it was cheap and readily available.

 

[BigPappa]

It would really stink to be a vape shop owner and to drop a ton of money in legal fees to stop the state ban on flavors only to have the federal government step in a week or two later and ban them:
FDA working 'as quickly as possible' on e-cigarette flavor ban

On the somewhat bright side (unless you're only into desert/candy flavors), there are plenty of articles about Trump backing down on mint and menthol.

 

[Rossum]

It would really stink to be a vape shop owner and to drop a ton of money in legal fees to stop the state ban on flavors only to have the federal government step in a week or two later and ban them:
FDA working 'as quickly as possible' on e-cigarette flavor ban

I wonder how this is going to work in light of Executive Order #13891, signed earlier this month, which states fairly clearly that "Guidance" issued by an Agency does not have the force of law.

On the somewhat bright side (unless you're only into desert/candy flavors), there are plenty of articles about Trump backing down on mint and menthol.

Mint and menthol have absolutely no appeal to me personally.

 

[BigPappa]

Mint and menthol have absolutely no appeal to me personally.

Me either, I vape unflavored, so does the wife... but at least some people out there might be happy.

 

[AttyPops]

Is it really that bad over there. I thought that it was his the flavour ban not any of the hardware ?

Oh and the recent nicotine tax.

Yeah, and we don't normally carry yellow vests in our cars...

This is all big-corporations, big-tax-revenue, and big-trouble.
But I still think there's back-room deals in the works to go after the cigs, so they're turning vaping over to BT as an exchange.

 

[sofarsogood]

And replace it with what .. ?? The very name :: Food & Drug, requires that they be flexible as things change .. we may not like our little niche area in their perusal, however, I for one, would rather have them around than not ..

Congress has gotten lazy and unprincipaled. They delegate too much to the Departments who end up with too much diiscretion. FDA is supposed to be science based, bah humbug. The whole vape thing is political to the bone. The people whose funding depends on tobacco should not be part of the conversation. Instead they are allowed to dominate the conversation. I blame the FDA for that.