Vapping banned at work, but the ignorant statements...

[Jman8]

I would say ignoring black market is being unrealistic. Not saying this to just one person. You render yourself as 'unrealistic' if you deny that part of the equation.

So, then you are stuck with 'dire consequences' of which you could be right, but so what? Why should we follow that take on things? Especially if you are in denial of a black market? As I just said on another thread, you could quickly become irrelevant, unless you change your tune and I'm thinking you will when reality of situation comes forth 5 to 10 years from today.

I can think of 3 to 6 reasons to be optimistic going forward. Black market would be one of those, but wouldn't be at the top, as black market is really just (natural) response to worst case scenario. I'd put "genie out of the bottle" and "ANTZ overplaying their hand" as reasons that are better than knowing black market will have a definite response to worst case scenario.

Like Andria said:

being really afraid, convinced that some bad thing is gonna happen, gives that bad thing a lot of mental energy, and just helps to bring it about. "That which I have feared has come upon me." Maybe if it hadn't been feared so desperately, so *energetically*, it wouldn't have.

Apparently some of us in this room don't realize that all this stuff is occurring at another level that is as plain as nose on your face, but as hidden/masked as the perceiver allows it to be.

 

[zoiDman]

I would say ignoring black market is being unrealistic. Not saying this to just one person. You render yourself as 'unrealistic' if you deny that part of the equation.

...

I'm not Ignoring Black Markets anymore. In Fact, because of what you Posted, I have been Giving it Quite a Bit of Thought.

I have seen Hundreds of your Post Jman8. And I Disagree with about 99.99% of them. Heck, Many of them I Only Skim thru because they are SO LONG.

But your Recent Post about Black Markets has been Good Food for Thought.

 

[Bobbilly]

But here's the thing -- aside from the consumer, who does it hurt the most if e-cigs are "tobacco products"? BT, that's who -- because they'll have to pony up to the states for every [vape-thing] sold. So the gov't tries to keep e-cigs, e-juice, from being sold alongside BT's *other* product(s)? -- guess who's got big money for every lawsuit you can shake a stick at? It sure ain't the consumers!

If they declare vape-stuff "tobacco products" and then try to stop their being sold alongside cigarettes, BT will have the gov't tied up hand and foot in lawsuits -- as expensive as BT can possibly make them -- for DECADES if necessary -- and does our gov't have money for that? REALLY? If they're so damn rich, why are they trying so hard to make every possible cent from our new technology?

The reason why BT doesn't really mind about the "master settlement" payments is because they've got TONS of money, and just keep making more -- and they'll use that mint to make sure the gov't keeps a level playing field -- if e-cigs are tobacco products that BT has to pony up for. Just watch.

Andria

BT would only be hurt if e juice isn't a tobacco product. I'm sure they are all set up for the MA needed. Business as usual. If it takes a long time-people will still smoke. Only the consumer gets hurt in any case

 

[AndriaD]

BT would only be hurt if e juice isn't a tobacco product. I'm sure they are all set up for the MA needed. Business as usual. If it takes a long time-people will still smoke. Only the consumer gets hurt in any case

I disagree strongly -- if ejuice, e-cigs, aren't tobacco products, then BT doesn't have to pony up to the states per the "master settlement" -- their bottom line actually gets BETTER -- the fewer "tobacco products" sold, the less they have to pay. Also, if e-cigs aren't tobacco products, then there's no need to display and sell them alongside tobacco products -- again, BT wins.

I really can't see BT as our "enemy" in this -- that would be the gov't itself, and of course, BP. And those idiot, fascist ANTZ.

Andria

 

[Bobbilly]

I disagree strongly -- if ejuice, e-cigs, aren't tobacco products, then BT doesn't have to pony up to the states per the "master settlement" -- their bottom line actually gets BETTER -- the fewer "tobacco products" sold, the less they have to pay. Also, if e-cigs aren't tobacco products, then there's no need to display and sell them alongside tobacco products -- again, BT wins.

I really can't see BT as our "enemy" in this -- that would be the gov't itself, and of course, BP. And those idiot, fascist ANTZ.

Andria

The MSA is based on cigarettes sold. Not just that it is regulated under the tobacco act. Although I'm sure others will disagree but being an "extract of tobacco" and regulated under the tobacco act does not make it legally tobacco or a cigarette. It does for regulatory purposes.

Depending on the local. Tobacco products are hidden from view yet e cigs are at the counter and available you in canada they are non-nicotine unless you go to a vape shop.

BT isn't a friend. They will welcome the lack of competition. The closer e cigs are to cigarettes the better. What real incentive do you have to create a product that will eliminate your main product? Better for them to corner the market and make it coexist with cigarettes.

In court. "Your honor, we offer an (inferior) e cig but they still live cigarettes."

 

[Jman8]

I have seen Hundreds of your Post Jman8. And I Disagree with about 99.99% of them.

So you're telling me there's a chance.

Of agreement.

 

[zoiDman]

So you're telling me there's a chance.

Of agreement.

We have a Long Way to Go on Most Thing. But I suppose Anything is Possible.

But on the Black Market Thing, I can see Many Possibilities.

LOL

 

[DrMA]

You can call it Negative if you Want. I like to think of it as Realistic. Even though I Don't Like It.

I think Too Many people are getting Complacent about what Can Happen with the e-Cigarette Market. Look at the New Threads Every Day. How many do you see that have Anything to do about the FDA Comment Period? Or Anything to do with the FDA period? When a New Vaper comes here, do you think they have Any Idea what is coming down the Road?

I wish I could Positive Attitude about where the e-Cigarette Market is Going. And it would be Great if CASAA could Win All the Battles that it will have to Fight. But I Don't think that is Going to Happen.

I think people have Become Very Apathetic about the Direction the e-Cigarette Market is going. And to Many think that Everything will Turn Out OK.

I would ask you to help spread the word. For example by carrying a signature like the one below.

 

[AndriaD]

I Dunno Andria.

I talk to a lot of New Vapers. And when I ask them about what they think Will Happen regarding the FDA, Most of them just Tilt their Heads like a Dog Hearing a Faint Noise and say... "What do you mean?"

If we Don't Talk about what Could/Can happen, how do we Expect New Vapers to get Involved?

It's fine to talk about what could or can happen -- but if you just *expect* those things to happen, well then, they very likely could. You're basically consenting to being "rode hard and put up wet," just like a wife who fully expects to be beaten when her old man comes home, usually will be. It's a form of submission, basically. If you REFUSE to cooperate with their agenda, EVEN IN YOUR OWN MIND, you've gone a little way towards making sure their agenda doesn't fly. And one of the ways you refuse to cooperate is by telling as many people as will stand still and listen to you, whether they vape or not, because the REAL issue here isn't REALLY e-cigs, it's about THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED and this godawful government overreach that's so epidemic. but if you just tell everyone "e-cigs are going to be regulated/banned/taxed out the yin-yang and there's nothing we can do about any of it," jeez, they might believe you and stop caring or trying or ANYTHING! THAT is how a negative attitude contributes to APATHY!

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

I would ask you to help spread the word. For example by carrying a signature like the one below.

Sorry, Signatures are one of my Forum Pet Peeves. And the First Thing I Turn Off when I join a Forum.

As to Spreading the Word. I tend to More Active on my State Level of getting people active.

 

[zoiDman]

It's fine to talk about what could or can happen -- but if you just *expect* those things to happen, well then, they very likely could. You're basically consenting to being "rode hard and put up wet," just like a wife who fully expects to be beaten when her old man comes home, usually will be. It's a form of submission, basically. If you REFUSE to cooperate with their agenda, EVEN IN YOUR OWN MIND, you've gone a little way towards making sure their agenda doesn't fly. And one of the ways you refuse to cooperate is by telling as many people as will stand still and listen to you, whether they vape or not, because the REAL issue here isn't REALLY e-cigs, it's about THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED and this godawful government overreach that's so epidemic. but if you just tell everyone "e-cigs are going to be regulated/banned/taxed out the yin-yang and there's nothing we can do about any of it," jeez, they might believe you and stop caring or trying or ANYTHING! THAT is how a negative attitude contributes to APATHY!

Andria

I'm Sorry Andria.

But when it comes to e-Liquids and Taxes, I just Don't see that as something if we All Pull Together, that we can Stop.

 

[Bunnykiller]

Turn in your resignation and find a new place to work. A company that actually has a clue to what is going on.

That is what I would do.

Or you can stop vaping and start smoking cigarettes again then take 3 or 4 breaks throughout the day to go out and smoke.

3 or 4???? thats pretty conservative

 

[AndriaD]

I'm Sorry Andria.

But when it comes to e-Liquids and Taxes, I just Don't see that as something if we All Pull Together, that we can Stop.

Why not? Do you not believe at all in the "American Ideal"? Now I realize full well that our Ideal of "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" has gotten trampled into the mud because of the corporate money basically bribing the gov't to do things the Big Corp way... but the only way we can change that is to TRY!

I'm just not the sort of person who gives up just because something is difficult. If I was, all this dehydration crap would have driven me back to cigarettes *permanently*, but I'm here drinking my coconut water daily, and adding a little more vaping daily, and eventually I'll turn the corner back to full-time, smoke-free vaper. Heck, if I was the sort of person who gave up easily, I know for a fact I'd be dead of alcoholism, because quitting that crap was HARD.

At the very least, if you're telling people about all this that's on the table, you ought to preface it with "IF this happens..." and not as if it's a Fait Accompli -- because NOTHING has yet been decided. And that way you can let them know that big things are happening, without discouraging them from even making an effort. If you phrase it that way, you might get them as outraged about it all as the rest of us are, and maybe they'll make their own efforts for the greater good of vapers -- or at the very least, maybe they'll ditch the smokes and become a vaper just to spite the gov't, BT, and BP, and save their own lives so they can be a thorn in the side of overreaching gov't for a good long time.

Very little happens without effort. If you just give up, there's no effort; like the old saying "Can't never could, because can't didn't even try."

Andria

 

[Jman8]

But when it comes to e-Liquids and Taxes, I just Don't see that as something if we All Pull Together, that we can Stop.

Inherent problem with sound bites and emphasis with capital letters on words is, I don't see how if we All pull together, it can't be stopped. Who's not included in the "all" with a capital A?

 

[zoiDman]

Inherent problem with sound bites and emphasis with capital letters on words is, I don't see how if we All pull together, it can't be stopped. Who's not included in the "all" with a capital A?

OK... Let's Do It.

Perhaps these States would be a Good Place to Start.

State Legislation

Currently, Minnesota is the only state that taxes e-cigarettes, with an other tobacco tax rate (OTP) of 95% the wholesale cost. The impact of a 95% wholesale tax on e-cigarettes means that the average price for a disposable e-cigarette with the state excise tax and sales tax included is around $16 to $18. This is essentially double what e-cigarettes sell for at retail in other states.

So far this year, bills to tax e-cigarettes have been defeated or failed in four states including Hawaii (100% OTP), Indiana (24% OTP), Oregon (81.25% OTP), and Washington (95% OTP).

The states with e-cigarette tax bills still pending are Kentucky (15% or 20% OTP), New Jersey (same as $2.70/pack cigarette tax rate), New York (75% OTP), Ohio (same as $1.85/pack cigarette tax), Rhode Island (80% OTP), and Vermont (92% OTP). This also means that 39 states have not yet considered legislation to tax e-cigarettes.

Eight of these ten bills seek to apply the tobacco tax rate to e-cigarettes, most likely because a federal court decision involving the FDA’s attempt to regulate e-cigarettes held that e-cigarettes are to be considered tobacco products for purposes of federal regulations.

http://www.cspnet.com/category-news/tobacco/articles/e-cigarette-legislative-environment

What do you think would be the Best Way to get Everyone to "Pull Together"?

 

[newbie94]

Don't leave the job just because of that, its to hard to find jobs nowadays. if I were you I would vape discreetly with a setup that dosent make much of a cloud. Also you are entitled to something like. A 15 minute bathroom brake every hour by law, so just vape in there. Peoples ignorance about foreign objects like vapeing is sadly very common. I told my good friend I started vapeing and he looked at me like I was a drug addict lol. When I explained the whole PG and VG and what ingredients are used, how it works, how PG is a common chemical in foods/ drugs he was much much more open to it. It's what the media makes it out to be that people are so scared of it. 4 ingredients compared to 4,000. I don't care what argument people pose vapeing is 10,000 times safer than smokeing of any tobacco.

 

[Jman8]

What do you think would be the Best Way to get Everyone to "Pull Together"?

Depends on what everyone wants, I guess. Us vapers don't want excise taxes. I think majority of non-vapers are unaware. And ANTZ like groups highly desire excise taxes.

From vaping enthusiast perspective, I'd advocate to vapers in those states to get products from neighboring states and/or work with others to smuggle products into their state that avoid heavy taxation. And/or, just go the DIY route.

 

[zoiDman]

Depends on what everyone wants, I guess. Us vapers don't want excise taxes. ...

OK... So how do we Stop Excise Taxes?

I Kinda took some Flack because my Views on Taxation were said to be Negative. And you said that if we "All Pull Together" that Taxes can be Stopped. So I'm trying to be Positive.

Are you saying that the Answer is just to Buy Products from States with Lower Taxes on Products?

 

[Jman8]

OK... So how do we Stop Excise Taxes?

I Kinda took some Flack because my Views on Taxation were said to be Negative. And you said that if we "All Pull Together" that Taxes can be Stopped. So I'm trying to be Positive.

From earlier statement, it would depend on what one means by "all." As you put capital letter on it, I would take that to mean everyone (alive). And from that perspective, I think we all could have it stopped if we wanted it stopped.

Are you saying that the Answer is just to Buy Products from States with Lower Taxes on Products?

I would say that is one answer. I feel many options can be brainstormed, but near the top would be to go to hearing where that is being discussed (hopefully it is open to discussion) and present case for why excise taxes will not benefit the community, while also understanding why many think it might.

 

[zoiDman]

...

I would say that is one answer. I feel many options can be brainstormed, but near the top would be to go to hearing where that is being discussed (hopefully it is open to discussion) and present case for why excise taxes will not benefit the community, while also understanding why many think it might.

This is More what I am Looking For.

It's Nice to be Positive. And Feel Good statements like "If we All Pull Together" we can ________ (Insert your Cause Here).

But at the End of the Day, we will Need something More than Words to Accomplish a Goal.

BTW - I am Very Curious how you are Going to Convince policy makers how a Tax on e-Cigarettes is Not a Benefit to that Community?

Especially seeing that Someone is going Mention that for Every Vaper who does Not Smoke, that the Community is Not Receiving Cigarette Tax Revenues from that individual Anymore.