Vapping banned at work, but the ignorant statements...

[Jman8]

BTW - I am Very Curious how you are Going to Convince policy makers how a Tax on e-Cigarettes is Not a Benefit to that Community?

By giving them data on smuggling and how people will actively seek ways to avoid the taxes, which is easy to share with others here in the information age. I'd let them know during a hearing that I will do everything possible to avoid taxes that are unreasonable, and may even say I'd let others know how to as well. I'd let them know if they went with lower tax rate, that incentive would be gone, they'd make lots and lots money, and would have a handle on things in their own jurisdiction.

Then I'd say, the choice is up to you. Create a black market, that will be exploited, or stay reasonable and make lots of money. I'd also let them know this is future proof. That should they think lower taxes now are okay, but they can always raise them next year to high(er) amount that they'd be inviting black marketer operators to take over the market and proceed accordingly.

Especially seeing that Someone is going Mention that for Every Vaper who does Not Smoke, that the Community is Not Receiving Cigarette Tax Revenues from that individual Anymore.

I'd love to have open discussion on this in a town hall meeting. Feeling confident that it wouldn't be openly discussed though.

 

[zoiDman]

By giving them data on smuggling and how people will actively seek ways to avoid the taxes, which is easy to share with others here in the information age. I'd let them know during a hearing that I will do everything possible to avoid taxes that are unreasonable, and may even say I'd let others know how to as well. I'd let them know if they went with lower tax rate, that incentive would be gone, they'd make lots and lots money, and would have a handle on things in their own jurisdiction.

Then I'd say, the choice is up to you. Create a black market, that will be exploited, or stay reasonable and make lots of money. I'd also let them know this is future proof. That should they think lower taxes now are okay, but they can always raise them next year to high(er) amount that they'd be inviting black marketer operators to take over the market and proceed accordingly.



I'd love to have open discussion on this in a town hall meeting. Feeling confident that it wouldn't be openly discussed though.

Like I said before, the Black Market angle is in that .01% that I am in Agreement with you. But if You are go down That Road, you are going to have to Agree to Some Level of State Tax.

Because if a State Doesn't have any Tax on e-liquid, then they will Receive No Tax Revenues. And be in a Net Loss because of the Cigarette Tax that Non-Smoking Vapers Don't Pay Anymore.

So if the Average Vaper using say 8ml a Day of e-liquid, what do you think would be a Reasonable Tax for a State to Impose?

 

[AndriaD]

I am Very Curious how you are Going to Convince policy makers how a Tax on e-Cigarettes is Not a Benefit to that Community?

Especially seeing that Someone is going Mention that for Every Vaper who does Not Smoke, that the Community is Not Receiving Cigarette Tax Revenues from that individual Anymore.

And that really is the rub, since the states receiving these extortion payments have been IRRESPONSIBLY, UNETHICALLY, and CRIMINALLY using those payments for EVERYTHING except their intended purpose -- to "lighten the load" of healthcare costs for smokers -- while still allowing insurance companies of every stripe to persecute smokers and extort far higher payments from them.

And this is not our fault -- I for one thought the entire Master Settlement case was a complete crock, because not one smoker was ever FORCED to smoke themselves to death; they chose to start smoking, they chose to continue smoking, and for their relatives to make a big hooraw about it, after the fact, is JUST PLAIN IDIOTIC! And I foresaw even then that nothing good would come of that ludicrous decision. Well, turns out I was right. Now the states are so pathetically irresponsible, they can't even back up the bonds they sold in expectation of future settlement payments, and that's not our fault either.

But somehow we're supposed to pay for all this fiscal irresponsibility, because we want to be more responsible for our own health.

It really is time for a new revolution.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

So if the Average Vaper using say 8ml a Day of e-Liquid, what do you think would be a Reasonable Tax for a State to Impose?

I think reasonable would be state's sales tax.

Given that there is opposition that will argue for heavy taxation, I'd go with excise tax that is very low with realization that lower means it will benefit from additional orders out of state because of lower taxation rate. So, maybe 2% above sales tax.

 

[zoiDman]

I think reasonable would be state's sales tax.

Given that there is opposition that will argue for heavy taxation, I'd go with excise tax that is very low with realization that lower means it will benefit from additional orders out of state because of lower taxation rate. So, maybe 2% above sales tax.

OK... 2% above State Sales Tax might be a Hard Sell. But hey, at least we are Using Numbers instead of Metaphors.

BTW - Have you Noticed how the Conversation has Shifted from Fighting Taxes. To what would be Considered Workable Tax-wise.

This is what I meant Earlier when I said that Taxes were a Given.

 

[Jman8]

OK... 2% above State Sales Tax might be a Hard Sell. But hey, at least we are Using Numbers instead of Metaphors.

BTW - Have you Noticed how the Conversation has Shifted from Fighting Taxes. To what would be Considered Workable Tax-wise.

This is what I meant Earlier when I said that Taxes were a Given.

Admittedly, I misread what you stated earlier about taxation as I thought you were saying high excise taxes are a given. Which I think we can both agree that those might end up happening, but I think if they do, it would not benefit that community. And have noted the reasons why I think it could actually work against them.

 

[RosaJ]

OK... 2% above State Sales Tax might be a Hard Sell. But hey, at least we are Using Numbers instead of Metaphors.

BTW - Have you Noticed how the Conversation has Shifted from Fighting Taxes. To what would be Considered Workable Tax-wise.

This is what I meant Earlier when I said that Taxes were a Given.

Interesting article here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ronic-cigarettes-jul-2014-a.html#post13648729

 

[AndriaD]

Interesting article here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ronic-cigarettes-jul-2014-a.html#post13648729

Precisely!

I'd love to give everyone involved in the sale of those bonds a swift kick in the derriere!

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

Interesting article here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ronic-cigarettes-jul-2014-a.html#post13648729

Yeah... And you wonder How States might want to Make Up for those Lost Monies?

 

[zoiDman]

Precisely!

I'd love to give everyone involved in the sale of those bonds a swift kick in the derriere!

Andria

It does Boggle the Mind they way Some Revenues are Generated. Or Attempted to be Generated.

 

[AndriaD]

It does Boggle the Mind they way Some Revenues are Generated. Or Attempted to be Generated.

I must be becoming a curmudgeon, because it does seem to me that the world is just going to hell, and most of the younger generations don't know, or don't care, they're so busy trying to make moreMoreMORE money by whatever means is necessary. Apparently no one believes in that thing called Ethics anymore, probably because they don't really teach abstracts anymore, they just teach how to pass a test and make a buck.

Andria

 

[RosaJ]

I must be becoming a curmudgeon, because it does seem to me that the world is just going to hell, and most of the younger generations don't know, or don't care, they're so busy trying to make moreMoreMORE money by whatever means is necessary. Apparently no one believes in that thing called Ethics anymore, probably because they don't really teach abstracts anymore, they just teach how to pass a test and make a buck.

Andria

Not all young people are clueless. I've met middle aged people who believe in "magical" thinking and that the government is going to take care of them because the government has the ability of taking money from someone else and give it to them. I usually try to stay away from talking about politics, so please don't judge me too harshly, but I can't help it any more.

 

[AndriaD]

I'm sure not all of them are; my own son has a powerful sense of ethics, and all of his friends that I've been privileged to know seem to be of much the same stripe of person. But unfortunately it seems the power-mad money-hungry ones gravitate to politics, for the opportunities of corruption. I'm sure our Founding Fathers are spinning in their graves. Or maybe it would be all too familiar to them; it seems that no matter where or when, those involved in politics are involved in *some* kind of corruption.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

I must be becoming a curmudgeon, because it does seem to me that the world is just going to hell, and most of the younger generations don't know, or don't care, they're so busy trying to make moreMoreMORE money by whatever means is necessary. Apparently no one believes in that thing called Ethics anymore, probably because they don't really teach abstracts anymore, they just teach how to pass a test and make a buck.

Andria

Nothing Wrong with Money. And there is Nothing Wrong with Wanting to make More Money. But where the Dis-Connect seems to be is What is Expectable to Achieve the Goal of Making More Money?

Seems like Anything Goes Today. As Long as the Goal of Making that Money is Meet. And things like Ethics or Morals have Taken a Backseat in Too Many Cases.

 

[DC2]

I'm sure not all of them are; my own son has a powerful sense of ethics, and all of his friends that I've been privileged to know seem to be of much the same stripe of person. But unfortunately it seems the power-mad money-hungry ones gravitate to politics, for the opportunities of corruption. I'm sure our Founding Fathers are spinning in their graves. Or maybe it would be all too familiar to them; it seems that no matter where or when, those involved in politics are involved in *some* kind of corruption.

Andria

It has been this way forever.

Back in the caveman days the strongest guy took the best cave and the best wife.
And he gave the second best cave to those who worked with him and advanced his agenda.

Especially favored were those that brought him prime cuts of bison and deer meat.

Now we have different ways of exerting "power" over others.
And different rewards and spoils to be shared.

But the theme remains the same, as does the result.
And only revolution has the power to change things, albeit temporarily.

How's that for pessimistic?

 

[Jman8]

It has been this way forever.

Back in the caveman days the strongest guy took the best cave and the best wife.
And he gave the second best cave to those who worked with him and advanced his agenda.

Wow, you are much older than I thought you were.

 

[AndriaD]

It has been this way forever.

Back in the caveman days the strongest guy took the best cave and the best wife.
And he gave the second best cave to those who worked with him and advanced his agenda.

Especially favored were those that brought him prime cuts of bison and deer meat.

Now we have different ways of exerting "power" over others.
And different rewards and spoils to be shared.

But the theme remains the same, as does the result.
And only revolution has the power to change things, albeit temporarily.

How's that for pessimistic?

Well that's why I keep promoting the idea of revolution. It might not happen in my lifetime, but it's the only thing that's going to work against the existing power structure. Kinda like the peasants in France against the Aristos.

Andria

 

[Bobbilly]

This is More what I am Looking For.

It's Nice to be Positive. And Feel Good statements like "If we All Pull Together" we can ________ (Insert your Cause Here).

But at the End of the Day, we will Need something More than Words to Accomplish a Goal.

BTW - I am Very Curious how you are Going to Convince policy makers how a Tax on e-Cigarettes is Not a Benefit to that Community?

Especially seeing that Someone is going Mention that for Every Vaper who does Not Smoke, that the Community is Not Receiving Cigarette Tax Revenues from that individual Anymore.

I wouldn't argue the case of excise tax based on smuggling or any of the ones BT uses. I'd use the reasoning of tobacco taxes to recover costs of health care and to discourage smoking.

1/ There is no supporting evidence that there is harm from vaporizers that justify excise taxes.

2/ call anyone out that talks about "losing" money when people quit smoking. - that's the intent and as it goes down the goals of tobacco cessation is successful. So are they saying they want people to smoke?

3/ why aren't NRT taxed more?

4/ if people are quitting smoking due to vapourizers then how could you say vapourizers aren't working?

To really make them uncomfortable ask what their exit strategy is for when everyone quits smoking?

 

[AndriaD]

I wouldn't argue the case of excise tax based on smuggling or any of the ones BT uses. I'd use the reasoning of tobacco taxes to recover costs of health care and to discourage smoking.

1/ There is no supporting evidence that there is harm from vaporizers that justify excise taxes.

2/ call anyone out that talks about "losing" money when people quit smoking. - that's the intent and as it goes down the goals of tobacco cessation is successful. So are they saying they want people to smoke?

3/ why aren't NRT taxed more?

4/ if people are quitting smoking due to vapourizers then how could you say vapourizers aren't working?

To really make them uncomfortable ask what their exit strategy is for when everyone quits smoking?

I agree those are excellent points to make, but they're far too rational -- it would mean attempting to have a battle of wits with the unarmed.

Andria

 

[Bobbilly]

I agree those are excellent points to make, but they're far too rational -- it would mean attempting to have a battle of wits with the unarmed.

Andria

Oh and if it's a tax supported by BT. Ask when the politician got in bed with BT.