Vegetable glycerine (glycerol) - safety discussion

[Kate]

Is that because it's a health scare?

In the long run we've debated the facts we have available and put our heads together and come up with mostly favourable opinions so far. All is not lost, except on people who don't read the whole thread.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

To be fair to Mihai, Bob, he did try to mitigate the alarmist nature of the opening post. And we got some good info out of it in the end. Unfortunately the title's glued on, and I suppose that would be a hit on a google search. I can see a situation where someone googles 'glycerine warning' and just draws a poor conclusion based on the number of returns.

Emp

 

[katink]

If the thread-starter approves, a mod can change that title... because yes, google hits are one of the worries with alarm-bells sounding in titles.

 

[jigtg]

dse801 penstyle peaked at 191C(10.3mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 215C(11.612mV). This one has very sensitive sensor so I vaped as slow as I could. No cart. Thermocouple under steel wool. Atomizer coil resistance is 3.3 ohms. Li-ion rated 3.6(4.11V max. measured).
As the wire conducts heat, actual temperatures will be higher. How much, I don't know. What I can say is that actual temperatures can't be less than those stated.

 

[karenwest1961]

Well, VG has been a godsend during my flu-bug issues. Sore throat, chest congestion. I tried the nic gum while I've been sick, but I've missed my e-cigs.

So, made a mixture to use in my e-cig while I'm ailing. 1 part high jane juice, 3 parts 100% pure VG (edible). It actually helped sooth my throat and I got my vaping back while I recouperate. After the cold is gone, I may go with a 50/50 mix. I've noticed during my PG free/low PG days, my dry skin and red eyes have cleared up. I have been attributing that to perimenopause/menopause...but now, I'm wondering. Who knows. But it seems that cutting the pg stuff with some vg has had some great benefits for me. I've been using it in my month old 901 since I have back-up units...my atomizer hasn't clogged up. It's still kicking nicely. I'm going to enjoy that while I can.

 

[leaford]

Maybe I'm allergic to VG the way some are to PG, but I used a VG based "vapor enhancer" once, and couldn't stop coughing for several minutes after each hit. Never again.

 

[TropicalBob]

Next time you're at the drugstore, check the ingredients in the off-brand "healthy" mouth washes. I found several that were almost pure vegetable glycerine. I use it for at least 50% of all my mixes now. If it gets in your mouth, you go "yum" instead of "yuck."

 

[jigtg]

I dont see why would you want to add unknown substance to your e-liquid. Keep in mind that mouth washes weren't designed to be heated to 170C or whatever. I got a 500ml bottle of technical food grade VG at about 25euro..
Using it only on my mini. It is probably a good idea to store large quantities of VG in garage etc. in case of fire, BTW.

Since acrolein is highly irritant it might be possible to show that it is
impossible to get lethal amount of acrolein in vapor because you would be such a big pain. Just an idea, I dont have the time nor resources to even attempt proving this.

I'm not buying that 100-130C story. I heated very small drop e-liquid with a digital soldering iron to 130C and got no reaction whatsoever. At 170C it started to generate some vapor. I don't see how atomizer could make such a big difference all of the sudden.

 

[leaford]

Because the heating coil in an atomizer isn't immersed in liquid.

 

[jigtg]

I don't see how that could make a difference. My weller wsd 50(50 watts) can maintain that temperature. I can try heating a piece of ~0.2mm fiberglass and measure temperature on top but I don't think it would change anything. I can build a complete "atomizer simulator" if/when some of my atomizers die.

Just to be pedantic here, atomizer coil clearly can be wet of liquid so you would have to use that temperature to be clear on acrolein. Obviously it is possible to make such an atomizer but it will have bigger coil.

 

[TropicalBob]

Jigtg, vegetable glycerine is not an "unknown substance." It is already a part of all the commercial e-liquids I've encountered. This thread went off the deep end long ago ....

 

[jigtg]

I wasn't refering to VG, you said almost pure VG.
VG being part of commercial e-liquids is just speculation. 5% < 50% . When someone puts their reputation and entire business on the line for VG safety, then we are getting somewhere. JC certainly doesn't seem to have the guts to show the test results and methods used. Being wrong and admiting it would be a disaster to any company.

 

[TropicalBob]

Well, you'd run screaming into the night over what I mix up, if VG scares you. I begin with home cooked (cigar or pipe) tobacco liquid, add Bickford flavor with its PG, then VG, then commerical E-Liquid for known nic strength, then some liquor. That mix is where "some VG" comes in. No sense vaping too much of that since it provides no kick. It's just a vapor producer with good taste when the stuff gets in your mouth, as it will. I've never seen a legitimate concern over its safety and would prefer it for its taste were it not for PG's germ-killing properties, a benefit that will keep me buying commercial PG-based liquids.

 

[jigtg]

Atomizer coil on minis and pens reaches temperatures over 280C. Way over 280C to be little more specific. My mini actually heats more.
Now I don't want to hear whining about my measuring instruments not being "professional" enough. If you do not believe me, get you data from someone who has better instruments. I have cross referenced my thermocouple against my soldering iron and it all matches.

So we need to VG vapor lab analyzed and that is going to cost a bit. Probably not much more than what pillbox paid for his tests. Depends on whether you want someone qualified to look at the vapor collection phase. One could of course test some e-liquid with 50% VG if testing VG alone costs too much.

 

[TropicalBob]

Will you just once say something clearly? If you think vegetable glycerine should not be vaporized, then say so. I don't know about anyone else, but your posts puzzle me no end. I have to read them three or four times to even try to understand what you mean.

No one but you, I believe, has ever raised a question on this. Dr. Loi has used it; I've used it for months. I'm sure glad you cross-referenced your thermocouple, but would like more bottom line and less mumbo-jumbo.

 

[jigtg]

Will you just once say something clearly? If you think vegetable glycerine should not be vaporized, then say so. I don't know about anyone else, but your posts puzzle me no end. I have to read them three or four times to even try to understand what you mean.

I do not think it is a good idea to use (high amounts of) VG until Mihai's claim can be shown to be invalid. If this Dr. Loi disagrees with Mihai's calculations it is his job to prove Mihai wrong. You shouldn't make claims you cannot back up.

No one but you, I believe, has ever raised a question on this. Dr. Loi has used it; I've used it for months. I'm sure glad you cross-referenced your thermocouple, but would like more bottom line and less mumbo-jumbo.

Is this Dr. Loi somehow affiliated with ruyan?
I've read some of the ruyan reports and they mention no temperature and ruyan devices actually use ultrasonic vaporizers. Newest paper mentions 2ppm of acrolein. Same report only suggest vapor to be analyzed nothing more.

 

[Ruby]

So is 2ppm safe or not?
What amount is unsafe?

 

[jigtg]

So is 2ppm safe or not?
What amount is unsafe?

We know very little about that. We know it's no fun stuff but not much more.

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/Portland2008ECIG.pdf mentions 1.3ppm in "headspace analysis of the Ruyan e-Cigarette cartridge". I don't get what this
"headspace analysis" tries to prove.

 

[TropicalBob]

Sorry, I'm outta this thread and will continue to use VG as I have been ....

 

[Kate]

Here is some information about acrolein from Wikipedia - Acrolein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... has a piercing, disagreeable, acrid smell similar to that of burning fat.

When glycerol is heated to 280 °C, it decomposes into acrolein. Acrolein may also be produced on lab scale by the reaction of potassium bisulfate on glycerol (glycerine).

... used in the preparation of polyester resin, polyurethane, propylene glycol, acrylic acid, acrylonitrile, and glycerol.

... tends to polymerize when left at room temperature, leaving a gummy yellowish residue with a putrid odor.

... is a severe pulmonary irritant and lacrimating agent.

... is associated with hemorrhagic cystitis

Skin exposure to acrolein causes serious damage.

Acrolein concentrations of 2 ppm are immediately harmful.

Acrolein is not a suspected human carcinogen; no studies have been conducted on the carcinogenic effects of acrolein on humans, but studies on rats have shown an increase in cancerous tumors from ingestion, but not from inhalation.

In October 2006, researchers found connections between acrolein in the smoke from tobacco cigarettes and the risk of lung cancer.

That doesn't bother me too much. It's not a proven carcinogen, that was my main concern.