Vegetable glycerine (glycerol) - safety discussion

[jigtg]

http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/energy/HC270799/HDL/ENV/enven/vol309.htm
Slight exposure causes disorders of the central nervous system accompanied by dizziness, drowsiness and loss of consciousness.

Wonder what that "LCLo" means. Lethal Concentration Low?
It says "LCLo 153 ppm, inhalation (10 min)" for humans.
"Odour threshold: 0.2-0.4 ppm" is also interesting. Maybe we should start sniffing vaporized VG that has been cooled back to liquid and then heated above acrolein boiling point. No sure if it would make its way from VG to air though. How high ppm is allowed at workplaces etc.?
Glycerol and acrolein are very different in sense of melting point and density...

 

[Kate]

The report on the page linked above says -

On account of its low odour and irritation threshold, acrolein is added to other highly toxic substances as a warning agent.

Humans/mammals: Poisoning results in severe irritation of the eyes, the skin and the respiratory organs as well as the gastro-intestinal region. Slight exposure causes disorders of the central nervous system accompanied by dizziness, drowsiness and loss of consciousness. High concentrations cause severe burns as well as bronchitis, pneumonia and pulmonary oedemas. A mutagenic effect has only been observed to date amongst protozoons.

It sounds likely to me that if we were inhaling toxic levels of acrolein then we would definitely know about it before any lasting harm was done. It's used as a warning agent so it's going to be pretty obvious to us if we inhale it.

 

[Ruby]

Looks like we were inhaling it with cigarettes anyway.

Elsevier Article Locator

 

[MagusSteele]

I'm suprised none of the ladys mentioned, Vg is also good for the Skin

 

[jigtg]

"1 ppm of acrolein in air produces detectable nose irritation in 2 to 3 min
and is intolerable in 5 min (58)."
acrolein (Aqualin, Magnacide) Herbicide Profile 3/85

"Respiratory response begins around 0.62 ppm."
http://www.dec.state.ak.us/air/anpms/as/toxics/noncarc/acrolein3.pdf

"NIOSH: Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health (IDLH): 2 ppm (4.6 mg/m3)"

"The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has set a limit of 0.1 parts of
acrolein per million parts of workplace air (0.1 ppm) for 8 hour shifts and 40 hour work weeks."
ATSDR - ToxFAQs™: Acrolein

So need to prove ~0.6-1.0 ppm exposure safe.

 

[Kate]

I think you've proved glycerine safe in regard to the original concern on this thread Jigtg.

We wouldn't be able to inhale harmful levels of acrolein without it being 'intolerable'.

Good job, thanks for the information.

 

[jigtg]

I think you've proved glycerine safe in regard to the original concern on this thread Jigtg.

We wouldn't be able to inhale harmful levels of acrolein without it being 'intolerable'.

Good job, thanks for the information.

So stick your e-cig to your nostril and vape like that for 5 minutes. I'm pretty sure within 10 seconds you change your mind about this odor thing being valid here. Within 5 minutes, you will either pass out or have a heart attact due to lack of oxygen. The test setup was 5 minutes continuous exposure through nose and you cannot change that no matter how hard you try.

Anyway, it seems very likely this acrolein problem can be avoided by using ultrasonic atomizers that do not reach temperatures over 280C. Namely devices manufactured by Ruyan. I don't have such a device so can't confirm this is true. What I found out is that ultrasonic technology can be used and it requires no additional heating. Ultrasonic itself causes some heating but it is probably much less. Because of that, this question really becomes irrelevant to me.

Oh, and regular atomizers heating coils can reach temperatures up to 450C according to my measurements.

 

[MagusSteele]

It dosent matter if the coil gets as hot as the sun, how hot does the liquid get?
Thats what matters.

 

[leaford]

And I doubt that measurement. More like 450F, not C. That would be a total waste of power. Nicotine vaporizes at 247c, and PG at 188.2C, so why would they design them to go above 250C or so? Not only does it waste power, it would lead to greater wear and tear.

 

[MagusSteele]

lol, I believe your numbers Leaford, however, read what you said, hehe

it would lead to greater wear and tear.

Would they do that? YUP

 

[leaford]

You could be right, but the factories all give a 1 year warranty, so they'd be cutting their own throats.

 

[jigtg]

And I doubt that measurement. More like 450F, not C. That would be a total waste of power. Nicotine vaporizes at 247c, and PG at 188.2C, so why would they design them to go above 250C or so? Not only does it waste power, it would lead to greater wear and tear.

Since when did metals start glowing red at 230C?

There is no such thing as evaporation point, amount of vapor you get can defined as a function of temperature. Vapor pressure of water as a function of temperature is exponential so I assume that is true for pg as well.

Coils smaller surface area means less vapor. Higher temperature means more vapor. Since you want atomizer to be small, you need to compensate for the small surface area by pumping up temperature to get enough vapor.

@MagusSteele:
To measure temperature of liquid I would have to place sensor inside wick running through the coil. Since I cannot do that, I cannot measure it. Vapor temperature cannot be measured because particles do not like to hit obstacles(temperature sensor) so I you would be measuring air temperature. Since air is not that hot it cools down the sensor. There might be some liquids that change pigment when heated to some specific temperature.

 

[MagusSteele]

Its been Forever since i was in chemistry class, I was always more mechanical engineering, but,

That was most of my point, it cools so rapidly, its not hot long enough to change molecularly. If the change is so acidic to burn the membranes, maybe a simple PH test would see if a change happens. My guess is, the PG or VG will show a lower PH actually because of the Humicant? effect basing it out, thats why the basic byproduct is only water vapor.
Just a guess, but, it sounds right to me.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Jigtg, Dr Loi is a longstanding member of the forum. His ID is JIMLDK, and it will reward you to check his posts out. He's independent and pretty much our sole authoritative voice from a scientific point of view. He doesn't post often but when he does I read him as his comments are invariably valid and valuable.

Emp

 

[jigtg]

Jigtg, Dr Loi is a longstanding member of the forum. His ID is JIMLDK, and it will reward you to check his posts out. He's independent and pretty much our sole authoritative voice from a scientific point of view. He doesn't post often but when he does I read him as his comments are invariably valid and valuable.

Emp

No, thats how you have gained trust to him. I trust FDA etc. because these guys expose their conclusion process to public critic. Dr Loi's comments are both too vague to prove anything and too vague to make him put his "reputation where his mouth is".

 

[TropicalBob]

If the choice is between Dr. Loi and Mr. Math here, I know where I'll put my trust, as will all veteran e-smokers on this forum. You didn't even know what GRAS was before it was explained after one of your typically off-base postings. Don't you ever deride Dr. Loi. You certainly are no authority. Emp is correct.

You were slightly amiss when you said you were "wasting your time" posting here. More correctly, you're wasting ours.

 

[jigtg]

If the choice is between Dr. Loi and Mr. Math here, I know where I'll put my trust, as will all veteran e-smokers on this forum. Don't you ever deride Dr. Loi. You certainly are no authority.

Looks like I hit a nerve here. Prooving wrong counts as deriding? What planet are you from? When I have a good point I dont need authority, it stands on its own.
Thats the funny bit, you do not have to trust me. Not if you know at least a bit of math. Feel free to question validity of my sources as well but be prepaired to show sources that are more reliable.

 

[TropicalBob]

Congratulations. You're my first use of the "ignore" list in user control. Now I won't see your arrogant ignorance. -30-

 

[karenwest1961]

Feel free to question validity of my sources as well but be prepaired to show sources that are more reliable.

You need to do more of your homework on Dr. Loi before you judge him as someone who is less reliable.

 

[jigtg]

You have no idea what I'm talking about do you?
Personal opinions and beliefs do not count as scientific evidence. Maybe you can get that to your thick skulls some day.