Vermont Internet Sales Ban

[Opinionated]

BTW - There were 134 Yea Votes out of 148 with 8 Abstentions. That means ONLY 6 People voted No for this Excise Tax.

Kinda talks the wind out of the One Side always Votes for and One Side always Votes against thing.

So there are three issues in Vermont.

1) Age Increase from 18 to 21 (H.27)

2) restricting online purchases (H. 26)

3) 92% excise tax (H.47)


All this will likely pass Vermont's Senate with this much bi-partisan support.

Plus it looks like the excise tax is worded in such a way as to also include DIY nicotine if they choose.

(check the language for me if you will, but it seems to easily cover DIY nic if they want it to..)

So... Vermont is in for a fight. They are asking for an implementation date of July 1 of this year, so they are hoping to push it through fast..

 

[zoiDman]

So there are three issues in Vermont.

1) Age Increase from 18 to 21 (H.27)

2) restricting online purchases (H. 26)

3) 92% excise tax (H.47)


All this will likely pass Vermont's Senate with this much bi-partisan support.

Plus it looks like the excise tax is worded in such a way as to also include DIY nicotine if they choose.

(check the language for me if you will, but it seems to easily cover DIY nic if they want it to..)

So... Vermont is in for a fight. They are asking for an implementation date of July 1 of this year, so they are hoping to push it through fast..

I would say that H.27 and H.47 are pretty much a Done Deal.

H.26, I would hope, would be meet with Strong Resistance from Vapers, Retailers and Legal Groups.

The Governor's Office also needs to be Bombarded with Physical Letters asking why He would sign such a Bill if it came to his desk?

Executive Office of Governor Phil Scott
109 State Street, Pavilion
Montpelier, VT
05609

 

[Opinionated]

I would say that H.27 and H.47 are pretty much a Done Deal.

H.26, I would hope, would be meet with Strong Resistance from Vapers, Retailers and Legal Groups.

The Governor's Office also needs to be Bombarded with Physical Letters asking why He would sign such a Bill if it came to his desk?

Executive Office of Governor Phil Scott
109 State Street, Pavilion
Montpelier, VT
05609

Just curious, why do you think 26 is different? The interference in interstate commerce?

Or something else?

 

[zoiDman]

Just curious, why do you think 26 is different? The interference in interstate commerce?

Or something else?

That, and because Lawmakers know if you push things Too Hard, you just drive people into Black and or Grey Markets.

And there is No Tax Revenue or Control when people are buying things in a Black/Grey Market.

 

[Opinionated]

nvm..

 

[CMD-Ky]

These days I don't even pay attention to who's in which party as their individual "policy initiatives" are all over the place. Then they flip positions when you're not looking with no ides why they changed their mind. No wonder nothing ever gets done.

If nothing got done, I'd be a happy man. But a lot of things do get done, most of the things that get done are poorly done. Then after what congress does do goes awry then we look to the government to fix what it broke. These chowder heads are capable of screwing up what ever comes into their line of sight.
Grid lock is good.

 

[Philabos]

Just read in WSJ today Keurig and AB are banding together to sell alcoholic cups - online.
Let me know when they ban this or impose a 92% tax on booze. That WOULD get them run out of office.

 

[madstabber]

Just read in WSJ today Keurig and AB are banding together to sell alcoholic cups - online.
Let me know when they ban this or impose a 92% tax on booze. That WOULD get them run out of office.

What are they thinking?!?!!? That’s going to start an epidemic. Teenagers using their parents credit cards to buy booze. You’d think people would learn from the current epidemic of children vaping. I know what will work...an all out....no holds barred...War on tax free internet sales of things people like to buy. I mean the war on drugs pretty much put an end to the drug problem. It’s just at times like these we really need to think of the children.

 

[ScottP]

I don't understand why Americans haven't made any fuss about their politicians being bought and votes paid for. How is this problem not apparent yet?

We have been crying, screaming, and yelling for campaign finance reform for decades. The problem is that the only people that can pass laws to change it, are the very S.O.B's that are getting paid by the current system. They can get into office with a $174,000/yr salary yet somehow after just a few years they are multi-millionaires. Well, not "somehow", I know how. They invest in stocks then pass legislation that helps their stock portfolio. How that isn't "insider trading" I have no clue but again the only people that can change it are the ones making $$$ from it.

 

[CMD-Ky]

1000 "Likes"

We have been crying, screaming, and yelling for campaign finance reform for decades. The problem is that the only people that can pass laws to change it, are the very S.O.B's that are getting paid by the current system. They can get into office with a $174,000/yr salary yet somehow after just a few years they are multi-millionaires. Well, not "somehow", I know how. They invest in stocks then pass legislation that helps their stock portfolio. How that isn't "insider trading" I have no clue but again the only people that can change it are the ones making $$$ from it.

 

[englishmick]

Plus it looks like the excise tax is worded in such a way as to also include DIY nicotine if they choose.

(check the language for me if you will, but it seems to easily cover DIY nic if they want it to..)

It sounds that way. But during the period when the Indiana internet sales ban was in effect and nobody would sell you e-juice you could still buy bulk nicotine. I emailed my nic vendor and they said they weren't affected, and I ordered a liter. Don't know if nicotine would also slip by on the tax side. But it may be that they need some additional law or specific wording to include bulk nicotine. I don't know what controls that.

For vaping generally it doesn't take much to scare off vendors. There are still some vendors who won't sell juice to customers from Indiana.

 

[zoiDman]

Sec. 1. 32 V.S.A. § 7702(15) is amended to read:

(15) “Other tobacco products” means any product manufactured from,
derived from, or containing tobacco that is intended for human consumption
by smoking, chewing, or in any other manner, including products sold as a
tobacco substitute, as defined in 7 V.S.A. § 1001(8), and including any liquids,
whether nicotine based or not, or delivery devices sold separately for use with
a tobacco substitute; but shall not include cigarettes, little cigars, roll-your-own
tobacco, snuff, or new smokeless tobacco as defined in this section.

https://legislature.vermont.gov/Documents/2020/Docs/BILLS/H-0047/H-0047 As passed by the House Official.pdf

Not sure how Nicotine Base couldn't fall under this Statutory Definition?

But then again, if H.26 passes, about Anything a Consumer bought would be coming from Inside of Vermont anyway. So it Wouldn't Really Matter.

Sec. 2. 7 V.S.A. § 1010(b) is amended to read:

(b) No person shall cause cigarettes, roll-your-own tobacco, little cigars,
or snuff, tobacco substitutes, substances containing nicotine or otherwise
intended for use with a tobacco substitute, or tobacco paraphernalia, ordered
or purchased by mail or through a computer network, telephonic network, or
other electronic network, to be shipped to anyone other than a licensed
wholesale dealer or retail dealer in this State.

https://legislature.vermont.gov/Documents/2020/Docs/BILLS/H-0026/H-0026 As passed by the House Official.pdf

 

[ScottP]

The online ban and the excise tax MUST happen in conjunction for their plan to virtually eliminate the access for teens.

ROFLMAO. It will absolutely NOT eliminate (virtually or otherwise) access for teens. Teens (especially 16+) can get money and they don't care how they spend it. If somehow they did make it so costly teens just couldn't afford it through normal means, it would either increase the crime rate as teems turned to crime to afford their addiction, or they will just buy cigarettes. An addict will do whatever it takes to feed the addiction. So to the Vermont legislature I say: Congrats, you just KILLED a lot of your kids via lung cancer from smoking. Hope you sleep well at night.

 

[zoiDman]

... The online ban and the excise tax MUST happen in conjunction for their plan to virtually eliminate the access for teens. They are well aware that this will severely limit the access to adults, but they honestly truly do not care. I am the person who gets the most honest information from 18-year-old vapors. ...

Are you saying this in some 3rd Person, Misguided, Lawmakers perspective? Or do You actually believe it?

Because if you ask any Teen then they will tell you that the Easiest, and Safest, way to get ahold of an e-Cigarette is to buy it from a person who can Legally buy them.

BTW - From the Center of Vermont, how far is it to the State Line in any Direction?

 

[Enso]

From my perspective none of these Bills are meant to increase tax revenue. That is why it is so hard to fight. We are used to lawmakers passing excise taxes not just for "public health and safety" but for tax revenue. We are not used to it being solely about the kids.

92% seems like it would generate revenue. Usually when politicians invoke “the kids” it’s to garner public support. Why do you think their motives are purely based on keeping kids away from the cheap high nic pods at EVERY gas station?

 

[zoiDman]

92% seems like it would generate revenue. ...

There is an Old Say'n...

Turn the Wrench too Hard and you will Break the Bolt.

Raising Taxes to curb a behavior is a Time Honored technique. And it is Very Effective when the Numbers Show that there was significant reduction in Sales of the Taxed Product.

Now of course, those Numbers aren't really giving one the Complete Picture. Because they Don't take into account the sale of Products that were Not Taxed.

But the Way you get around this is you Just Don't Mention that. Instead, you just give the public Emotional Sound Bites...

"City officials say they are aware of the huge extent of the illegal sales, but defend high cigarette taxes as saving lives.

New York State Department of Taxation and Finance officials declined comment.

Still, the Empire State, the report says, “is the highest net importer of smuggled cigarettes, totaling 56.8 percent of total cigarette consumption in the state.”

https://nypost.com/2017/11/11/nyc-is-the-cigarette-smuggling-capital-of-the-us-study/

 

[zoiDman]

I am suggesting the online ban coupled with the increase in price from the tax is meant to effectively decimate the entire market. They want to make it virtually impossible for a retailer to sell it and make a profit. To be clear, I don't think this will be effective at all. I think it may put their best line of defense out of business, but teens will still find a way I completely agree. An increase in age would help, an online ban would also help (even though it would seriously effect the adult e-cig user), rigorous compliancy checks for places with a "tobacco substitute" licenses. I would support insane compliancy regulations if it meant I could keep doing business and helping adults. Stricter and overly enforced punishments for teens and parents of teens using or possessing these item under-age would help. A $1000 fine to your parents might do wonders for personal responsibility. This is what I mean about our legislatures taking the path of least resistance. There are some very effective solutions, but they require people actually do a little more work.

Essex is on the Western side of Vermont, to get to New Hampshire it would take an hour maybe. Thats a guess. People in Vermont are already used to going to the Native American Reservation for tax free tobacco, so your point is well observed already.

That's kinda how I thought you meant it.

You probably Don't know me because you are New to the ECF. But I am about the Last Person who would want to see a Non-Smoking Teen picking up an e-Cigarette.

But I am a Realist. And there is ALWAYS going to be a small Baseline Percentage of Teens who are going to Try/Use things.

So when it comes to Teen Vaping, I hate to say it, but I think this is a Fad/Trend that we are just going to have to Ride Out. Because No Policy of Regulation is going to Completely Eliminate Teen Use of e-Cigarettes.

Only Cooking the Survey Data can do that.

And it is a Shame that they Need to, for PR/Grandstanding Reasons, throw Adults under the bus before the do just that.

 

[Enso]

Well, this all looks bleak for VT business and vapers. Hopefully this doesn’t become the precedent for the nation.
Assuming these three pieces go into effect in July (and it seems they will), would that make VT the strictest in the USA?

 

[ScottP]

If they really wanted to reduce teen use of tobacco, they would make possession by minors illegal just as it is for alcohol and make it a legal requirement for school officials to report kids they find in possession. That won't eliminate it, but it would significantly reduce it.

 

[zoiDman]

If they really wanted to reduce teen use of tobacco, they would make possession by minors illegal just as it is for alcohol and make it a legal requirement for school officials to report kids they find in possession. That won't eliminate it, but it would significantly reduce it.

Most States are Reluctant to do that.

Because Politically, it is a Touchy Issue. And most States don't have enough Manpower/Resources to handle an influx in "Status Offenders".