VG with low resistance dangerous?

[Pampavich]

Dont know if this been posted before but im curious what u guys think about this. Its from another forum.

just started selling VG liquids A while ago there were some messages VG could be dangerous on hightemperatures. After a important warning from Bernie (owner of E-raucher-forum)and also recipe specialist of several e-liquid for Dekang / Boge, We found out that vaping VG could be dangerous. From 200°C and up Glycerine changes in the way the molecules move fromleft to right and can produce Arcoleïne
This is a dangerous substantion We will investigate this. We advice to not Use VG with Low resistance atomizers / Cartomizers,untill we further investigated this. The normal PG liquids dont have this problems and can be used with LowResistance without any problems or risks.

 

[kinabaloo]

The higher the % of VG, and the higher the power input (temeratures at the heater coil), the more likely is the chance of thermal decomposition of VG.

Years ago I pointed out that DeKang would not be using PG over the less expensive VG without a good reason. And the reason is clear enough in the science.

Because of its high viscosity, VG also raises the chance for filler charring as the wicking speed is lower.

That said, luckily both filler charring and acrolein have a nasty smell which is hard to ignore. This still leaves the possibility of chronic exposure to trace amounts.

Around a couple of years ago I had the idea to test for VG decomposition and the experiment was carried out by Exogenesis who had set up a timer/pump controlled auto-vaper. We found that a pure VG/water liquid left significant charred deposits on the atomiser whereas with PG there was almost nothing (probably just dust from the air).

In summary, it is not easy to make any sure-footed proclamations. But is thermal decomposition of VG a possibility - yes. Is it a serious health concern - far less than smoking, but hard to quantify and the answer lies somewhere between inconsequential and 'VG should be used only in low proportions (20-30% max.).

If you are using high % VG and feel it works for you and don't notice anything adverse, then I'd say there's no reason to panic; you are far better off vaping VG than smoking.

=========================

Issues with e-liquid constituents

• VG with high temp.s / high %
• All sweetners (or sugars) other than Ethyl Malate
• Colors, some flavorings (e.g. diacetyls)
• Any ingredient that is not thermally stable and volatile (will not leave a dry residue); e.g. citric acid

In addition, I'd like to see

• Temperature controlled heating coils to minimise charring / decomposition when there is insufficient liquid to absorb the heat and be used up in vaporisation or the wicking cannot keep pace
• Filler-less technology (this can be achieved by dripping but will not appeal to most people)

And emphasize

E-liquids with VG (in particular) can suffer from microbial infestation (bacteria and molds). Don't keep opened liquids such as cartomisers to reuse around for more than a few days, and keep them cool and sealed with caps, etc. For longer storage, clean out and dry first thoroughly. Clean regularly and throughly things like tips, syringes etc.

 

[kinabaloo]

Have been experimenting a bit. And while the experiment is so far a one-off, it's worth reporting.

Have been topping my carto with neat VG during the evening and despite going at it some, I've not had any bad tastes or smells, even when vaping very frequently and I can tell by the vapor drop off that I am getting close to a dry coil.

Not sure what %VG exactly I'm at now, but well over 50% i think.

So I might be changing my opinion on VG. And I'm beginning to think the culprit for the nasty smell/taste might be ethanol (it would need to be ethanol, water, nicotine, PG or flavoring (natural vanilla in my case) as there's nothing else I've been using recently). Or a combination of these.

I think flavorings (including sweeteneers) and colors can lead to dry deposits that can char and lead to flavor deteriation, but that sudden onset nastiness would seem to be down to something else. It's looking like water and or ethanol content. A bit strange. Or perhaps dry residue charring in the event of dry coil. Maybe neither VG or the filler is to blame.

Btw, using an 808 w. carto.

Will keep going until I'm on 100% VG (with no nic., flavor or anything else).

The pure VG is thick, but it seeps into the carto pretty well and seems to wick ok too, so far.

My 808 is an S-808D

=====================

Later ...

ps: i certainly had wicking problems in the past when using high VG with carts (and even high PG). Carts were terrible!

Need to sleep in a moment. I must be close to pue VG now and have had no problems on the 808.

Perhaps under-powering VG liquids is more the problem?

Considering all the people who have issues with PG, this is good news. The problem seems not to be VG after all - it's somehing else.

++++++++++++++

Later

Maybe the presence of ethanol (or maybe water) can catalyse or in some other way promote VG decomposition? Without the ethanol, I can't detect a sign of decomposition.

Might be onto something here. I get the bad taste problem when flavorings are in the mix - i.e. when water and ethanol are added. In other words, the combination is the problem. As VG always contains a certain amount of water, it is either water above a certain % or, most likely, the presence of ethanol.

If someone has PGA and some empty cartomisers, perhaps they can test pure VG vs VG + say 20% PGA. The hypothesis is that VG + PGA = potential for nasty smells/tastes.

PGA is not something one can get here in the UK.

++++

Some hours later

Didn't get to sleep so continued the experiment and still nothing adverse from what is surely now almost pure VG. I think this is rather exciting as Vg is well tolerated. The task now is to narrow down the real cause of the nasty burnt taste - it is not VG alone.

++++

Ethanol seems to be a common factor. I have had the nasty burnt taste with no-VG liquids too, but only when ethanol was present. Ethanol combustion cannot itself give rise to toxins so the answer must lie in interaction with the glycols (most prevantly with VG).

 

[kinabaloo]

Further

I think I might have been wrong to suggest that VG might be a problem with regard to microbial infestation, or mold, but one one thing that still worries me a bit is VG's reluctance to evaporate; if it is effectively aborbed by the lung, then no problem - but i have no data on this as yet.

However, from tonight's experiment, i must say that i feel no ill effects at all.

 

[Pampavich]

Wooow kinabaloo! U really put some time and effort in this! Thats really nice to see and i respect it alot thnx!

The reason i wanted to know more about this issue is because in my country we use mostly PG(Dekang indeed) VG is not very populair here. But i dont really like Dekang. So by reading on this forum i found out lots of people in the US use VG liquids, also with LR and high volts. And in fact it seems the most populair liquids are 100% VG or at least like 30% as i have been reading.
And now i have ordered some of these liquids since i hope the quality is better. But i love my dc carto's too.

I was a bit worried because the use the word dangerous. So i didnt know in what way that would be since its just some mysterious liquid to me. I mean from smoking at least we know it kills u. But if u say this is far less dangerous then smoking then im calmed

I have to read and think about this more. More reply will follow.

 

[908Tracy]

kinabaloo,

I appreciate all of your hard work on this experiment, as I vape 100% VG all the time. The first post scared the be-gee-bees out of me! I'm glad I read this thread all the way through.

Again, thanks for taking the time to do this!

 

[Bwig]

I also can only vape 100% vg, and I am very greatful for all the hard work you have put into this and I commend your great knowledge.

 

[kinabaloo]

Thanks 908Trace and Bwig.

I couldn't detect any issue with pure VG; not even with filler burning despite having a filler stuffed carto.

The problem seems to be the combination of VG with ethanol (and/or water); but I'm no further with that hypothesis as yet.

 

[Pampavich]

Got my order in and im vaping 100% VG on a 1.25 dc carto @ 3.7V for the last 24 hours. No il or funny effects. (If i want the last i use my vaporizer)

So i guess the 'dangerous' part is non excisting?

 

[kinabaloo]

Seems to be when there is significant (ethanol and/or water) present. With !00% VG (and nothing else), I could detect no problems at all. PG-VG mix, also fine.

 

[Penner]

I'm vaping 100% VG, 12 mg nicotine Bobas, on a Provari at 3.5 to 3.7 volts & on a ce2 clearomizer at 2.9 ohms.

Question: is this the combo (volts & ohms) that causes too much heat, & degrades into alcrolein?? (I dont notice any smell, just the typical Bobas smell).

 

[Rocketman]

I hate to jump in here, but the reference to LR (low resistance) is a little vague, and may be misinterpreted by some. LR (maybe like 1.6 ohms) run at a reasonable voltage (like maybe 3.7 volts) should produce the same coil temperature as a higher resistance/voltage (like 3 ohm @ 5 volts). Even lower coil temperatures are generated with the 1.6 ohm dual coils (a pair of 3.2 ohm coils) run @ 3.7 volts. The combined heating effect of the pair of coils may get the liquid hotter when run @5 volts.

Just calling something LR doesn't make it hotter. The surface temperature of the wet coil should vaporize the 'liquid mixture' without generating high temperature chemical reactions or vapor distillation,, unless super heated, which would allow reaction in the hot vapor stream adjacent the coil. I agree with the OP that Ethanol may be reacting in the hot vapor stream with other ingredients.

Make lots of vapor if you must, but be mindful of coil temperature (sort of related to watts per coil).

I use about a 50/50 PG/VG mix, thinned to about "Dekang viscosity" with DM water. The only Ethanol is by chance in the somewhat small percentages of some flavors.


Penner: Your resistance/voltage combination sounds pretty tame. If you are not having wicking problems I doubt you are vaping dangerously.

 

[Penner]

Thanks for your reply Rocketman.

I just re-read the Provari manual, it says "Thermal Monitoring shuts the device off if it detects a high temperature condition"

but

1. High temperature of what? The Battery? The atomizer?

2. they dont say how high is "high", I wish they did.

 

[Rocketman]

Thanks for your reply Rocketman.

I just re-read the Provari manual, it says "Thermal Monitoring shuts the device off if it detects a high temperature condition"

but

1. High temperature of what? The Battery? The atomizer?

2. they dont say how high is "high", I wish they did.

Temperature sensing of electrical stuff in the mod.

 

[nadburnit]

VG breaks down into acrolein at 280c, thats 536 degrees F. I don't think atomizers get anywhere near that hot. You may could do it with LR and high volt mods and heavy vaping. I am pretty sure that you would burn your filler matterial if you got anywhere near 536 degrees F.

 

[Rocketman]

ever look into a CE2 clear when you vape? Try it in the mirror. If it doesn't wick well the heater will glow.

Glow is how hot?

 

[Pampavich]

So if i wanna thin 100% VG juices its better to use alcohol(vodka) then water? And alcohol thins better then PG right?

 

[Bohab13]

Bump- Sorry I don't have an answer for you. Just wanted to bring this post back to the front so someone who knows could help you.

 

[orachel]

kinabaloo,

I appreciate all of your hard work on this experiment, as I vape 100% VG all the time. The first post scared the be-gee-bees out of me! I'm glad I read this thread all the way through.

Again, thanks for taking the time to do this!

Me, too! 100% VG! Scared the bits off me. Thanks so much for posting your updated findings. Whew.