VP-live and discoveries from Shenzhen visit

[proteckt3d]

Hy everyone, I wanted to post here because I didn't see any discussion about the topic. How many of us listened to VapinGreek's and PBusardo's radio session about their trip to Shenzhen in China? This file here, {MODERATED}. For me the audio was quite descriptive, more than a video normally is, but this is less important. What I wanted to find out is how many of you were also shocked to find out about the cloners or cloning c&c shops working conditions; because for me, it sounds inhumane and I don't think I exaggerate in saying that and I think it should be a highly discussed subject and that all vapers should be aware of this and as vapers we should do as much as possible to stop this. I am looking forward for the video to be uploaded and see what position clone supporters take on this and if they'll even acknowledge that this is not right. Before I saw myself being in the middle, neither for nor against clones, but this changed my mind completely and I will never buy another product from this kind of c&c shops in the future, especially clones. I prefer paying the highest price for the same china made product and knowing that the workers who made it work in a decent factory and have decent conditions, not what is it right now. People could develop health problems and we would not know about it and this is truly morally wrong from any point of view in my opinion. There is no room for discussion in my decision and I hope the sooner these factories will disappear the better our conscience and those workers will be.

 

[Bunnykiller]

were the employees forced to work there?

 

[proteckt3d]

Is that a serious question? Ok, If you listened to the file you'd know that they are not forced and common sense can tell you that too. I would assume that even in China the authorities would prevent this from happening anyway. What matters is that there are employers over there that will do anything to make a cheaper product than their competition, even at the expense of human well being. And this situation is highly influenced by our buying choices.

 

[Bunnykiller]

and yes its a real question.... would you work in that enviroment? just because its China doesnt mean the people there think differently from other people.... they do have a choice in picking the place to work...

 

[FlamingoTutu]

China does used forced labor. http://www.dol.gov/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-of-goods/

They claim they have stopped but good luck proving that. Made In China ? But Was It Made In A Prison? : Parallels : NPR

 

[InTheShade]

I've seen some pretty crumby factory conditions in Mexico, Honduras and Nicaragua too.

Until I see the video I will reserve judgement. I did listen to Smoke Free Radio when they were discussing it, but I mainly came away with the impression the CNC shop they were talking about was oily and dirty, not necessarily that the workers were being treated poorly.

 

[v1k1ng1001]

The same question could be asked of the working conditions behind most of the goods in our lives. Factor in the environmental impact and it only gets worse.

I say this with a profound sense of the irony inherent in posting this via an ASUS htpc / Samsung TV / Acer wireless keyboard while vaping on a cloupor 30w / Eh Pro Kayfun clone while wearing my sweatshop clothes.

At least my juice is supporting small American business.

 

[440BB]

The conditions at the Innokin facility sounded much cleaner, but with employees staying at company owned dorms, I'm not sure this is much different than the small shops in terms of what employees earn (net of company charges) and whether they live under fair circumstances.

That said, I still prefer original designs.

 

[Spencer87]

Wow... this is a load of crap..... Look at the tags on your clothes. Made in Bangladesh, Made in india, made in philippines.... made in a hundred different third world countries where 90% of the working conditions would not be up to the standards of north american companies. Plus... look at almost any electronic in your house. Made in china! your phone. Made in China, your computer made in china. You think they all work in super fancy office buildings with perfect working conditions?

go look at the chinese who are dying due to chemical poisoning from making your cell phone batteries.

you wanna start a war about this, ok, good on you... but you have to be consistent.
means you cant own anything unless you are sure of the working conditions of those there.

its the cost of cheap product. They can make a radio in America, for like 50 buck including labor. Or they can make it for 2 dollars in china including labor, and spend an extra dollar on shipmment, and sell you the radio for 10 dollars as oppose to 90 dollars.

99% of the people in the world would rather spend 10 dollars than 90 dollars on a simple FM radio

 

[Asbestos4004]

whats an fm radio??? Is it going to replace satellite radio? If it is, I'm gonna be ......! I just renewed my sirius subscription! Dammit!!! No wonder they offered me free playboy channel.....

 

[smacuser]

It was a pretty interesting program.

MODERATED

iTunes keywords: vp live china recap

 

[rolygate]

It's a big problem for anyone's conscience. However, most of everything not bolted down within 5 yards of you was made cheaply in some sweatshop overseas. It's why you bought it, after all.

Apologies if you only ever buy N America / Europe goods at top dollar - though you'd be highly unusual, let's face it. Your shorts came from a sweatshop and that's about as close as possible.

And please note that the asking price over here has nothing to do with the ex-factory cost: the retail price is whatever the market will bear and not a cent less. When you buy a T-shirt for $20 it was made for 20 cents in the third world.

What's the solution? It's called Fair Trade. Leaving aside whether all goods marked 'Fair Trade' are indeed such in reality, the answer to your question, in the ecig products area, is for you to go over there and start up a fair trade system in Shenzhen. Until you or someone like you does that, nothing will change.

I don't like to criticise without also suggesting a solution...

When Malcom McClean [1] changed the world so drastically, probably without realising it at the time, he moved production to the cheapest possible source anywhere in the world. Now we don't make stuff, we buy it. It's made in the cheapest place in the world that can produce for our markets. Cheapness means low wages. If you don't buy it, that's OK, but they don't eat then. You can fix it of course, but that's about 10 times harder than the original relocation of production, which was automatic once shipping costs fell through the floor.

I await the Fair Trade Shenzhen label with anticipation.




-----------
[1] google: <malcom mcclean>, <malcom mcclean ecig>

 

[Ren76]

Ever been inside a window factory?
A foundry?
A meat process plant?
And I'm taking north America, some of those places are down right health/life threatening.
It's not just 3rd world stuff.
Just my two cents.

 

[Ryedan]

Before I saw myself being in the middle, neither for nor against clones, but this changed my mind completely and I will never buy another product from this kind of c&c shops in the future, especially clones. I prefer paying the highest price for the same china made product and knowing that the workers who made it work in a decent factory and have decent conditions, not what is it right now. People could develop health problems and we would not know about it and this is truly morally wrong from any point of view in my opinion. There is no room for discussion in my decision and I hope the sooner these factories will disappear the better our conscience and those workers will be.

As you can see from some of the responses you've received so far, this is not just about vaping products. It also covers a lot of other things you buy as a consumer. It is also not about vaping clones vs originals, as a surprising amount of original vape equipment is made in China also.

I would be interested to know how you feel about this from this point of view.

 

[bwh79]

I'd love to save the world,
But I don't know what to do,
So I leave it up to you...

 

[BlueSnake]

Op, I would also say that probably what you typed your original message on came from China, Japan, or Korea. As others have stated almost everything we buy today comes from Asia. Why pick on vaping needs?

 

[Ren76]

To the op
don't take this as a personal attack, we are just pointing out everything that is wrong with manufacturing around the world.

 

[proteckt3d]

and yes its a real question.... would you work in that enviroment? just because its China doesnt mean the people there think differently from other people.... they do have a choice in picking the place to work...

Well I'm sorry to contradict with you, but I think you are blinded by the narrowed livelihood you know in your country. But even so, I can try to explain differently, lets suppose you live in a big populated city and food shops are limited and are opened once a day for a limited time and there is also limited food to buy in each of them. All customers have good income, so maybe money is no problem, so they will go to their shop of choice and try to buy their food for the day, including you. But if somehow you can't get your food from there because it's finished or maybe it took too long to reach the counter and the shop is closing, you have to find another place or else you will go to sleep with an empty stomach. The same applies to other people that live in that city too and didn't manage to buy food. Are all of these people forced to get their food from wherever they can? There might be a high change that they are. Put in a few other freedom limitations for China, and now maybe you get a better idea. Labour is plenty in China but labour offer may be limited, and the same as in my example, some offers are better and others are worse for any individual worker and all of them will try to get in the best suited workplace for them but if they don't get it, most of them may still need a job or else they won't have the money they need. I think this should be enough to explain my point here, that some employers in China, in the vaping industry because this is what this forum is concerned in, will apply work conditions much worse than others, taking advantage of the labour oversupply and it might be even that they make more profit, firstly because they could sell more product than a bigger factory because the demand for their product is higher and secondly because they 'don't lose' money in keeping work conditions up to standards, whatever they are, formal or informal, there have to be some standards that are expected by the industry. These don't have to be the only reasons why they'll be more profitable than their competition, there might very well be others. Further, if you agree with all of this, then you'll agree to me asking, what is to stop the competition to do the same like these c&c shops? Or even if not the same, others can still act in a similar fashion. Demand for their products is the fastest way they can be stopped.

 

[proteckt3d]

I'd love to save the world,
But I don't know what to do,
So I leave it up to you...

I don't know how too BW, but I know that extreme cases should be the beginning and I also know that damage gets fixed in much smaller steps than what it took to create it ( hope you understand what I want to say ). This also applies to what v1k1ng pointed out concerning the environment. The most easiest example, despite the really abnormally high levels of CO2 right now, it'll will take many more years for countries to even make real effort to decrease their emissions and that just the first part, the second part is the time greenhousegases take to be removed naturally from the atmosphere but maybe you agree that this subject is far beyond our small thread here. Although I want to add that I think the only way to make a change is to involve directly in it, whatever it is. The same as in this case here. I agree with everyone that conditions are poor in these countries but as everywhere else they are limits to how bad they should get and I think I am right about this case. The only way I can try to make a change by involving is by not buying their product. This is in no way direct if you are wondering about that, but at least it's something and the furthest I can distance myself from them. Directly would be to go there and start lobbying for this cause I would suppose. I'm not even waiting for the video, or better said, I would prefer that it wouldn't exist for us to see because it's degrading. I made the picture in my mind based on everything I heard in the audio file.

 

[proteckt3d]

as a surprising amount of original vape equipment is made in China also.

Yes, and it's that original vape equipment that I'm going to buy from now on. The one that costs three or four times the amount of the lowest price. Clones are not even part of my point here.

...is not just about vaping products. It also covers a lot of other things you buy as a consumer.

Well actually it is about vaping products because this is a vaping forum. I would've posted in the Outside section or in another site or blog or forum if I wanted to discuss this beyond the issue at hand. Which I think I will never do, although I never thought that I will ever do even what I'm doing here so I guess I'll never know. In any case there are other places people discuss about the things mentioned here which we buy as consumers. I know also there are some matters that are more urgent then others, such as the clothing industry in developing countries for instance and what can anybody say in one post about that? not much, but for sure the fault doesn't belong entirely to the factory. This is what Phil touched sometimes when he was talking about what he talked with the different workers in the factories they were. At least I buy most of my clothes second hand so they don't have to take that extra employee for me. But this doesn't matter. What matters is that consumers should react when they find out about things like this, like in this case of extremely poor work conditions, it will always have an impact no matter how small but it is something. You never know who might get involved later and pursue further action, for example.