WARNING: clean atomizer/phosphine poisonous gas

[80063r]

WARNING: clean atomizer/phosphine poisonous gas

Note: I'm sorry I can't post links to external sites. This took me hours to figure out how to post. Copy and paste the FAKE URL into the address bar of your browser and change the _ and * in www_ _org _com *htm and *html to a period "."
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ftp: // techneurosa_com/WARNING_clean_atomizer-phosphine_poisonous_gas*htm

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While reading other threads (i.e. www_e-cigarette-forum_com/forum/experiments-equipment/13746-finally-i-have-clean-atomizer*html www_e-cigarette-forum_com/forum/experiments-equipment/10475-cola-method-taken-another-level-works*html etc.) I considered buying some 75% phosphoric acid (Nu-Calgon Ice Machine cleaner www_bflsupply_com/shopsite_sc/product4967*html ). At first glance, it sounds safe (i.e. britishsoftdrinks_com/Default.aspx?page=410 and see link 2 below).

BUT, as many have warned, these ideas are experimental. When heated, phosphoric acid will produce a poisonous gas called phosphine (or phosphane, another name, see links 4, 5, 8) and if in contact with a metal, produces a metallic phosphate, a solid soluble in water, another poisonous toxin (see links 3, 5, 6, 7).

My conclusion is that a double, boiling water rinse procedure is important. The first boil may leave nickel phosphate on the atomizer coil and release a small amount of the highly poisonous gas, phosphine. The second boil should remove the remainder of the nickel phosphate from the heating element.


If this is not done, (I don't really know but maybe) death could occur. These byproducts are deadly, used in rat poison and fumigators (see link 1).



1. www_absoluteastronomy_com/topics/Rat_poison
2. en_wikipedia_org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
3. en_wikipedia_org/wiki/Phosphate
4. in_answers_yahoo_com/question/index?qid=20090408012406AAEfLKi
5. www_inchem_org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg028*htm
6. findarticles_com/p/articles/mi_7106/is_2_84/ai_n28407639/
7. www_imc-group_com/msds/Nickel%20Phosphate.pdf
8. en_wikipedia_org/wiki/Phosphine

 

[Sun Vaporer]

WARNING: clean atomizer/phosphine poisonous gas

Note: I'm sorry I can't post links to external sites. This took me hours to figure out how to post. Copy and paste the FAKE URL into the address bar of your browser and change the _ and * in www_ _org _com *htm and *html to a period "."
For proper links, see (delete the space between ftp: and // and change _com to .com:
ftp: // techneurosa_com/WARNING_clean_atomizer-phosphine_poisonous_gas*htm

Login as User: e-cigarette-forum No Password
If you still have trouble, send me a message.


While reading other threads (i.e. www_e-cigarette-forum_com/forum/experiments-equipment/13746-finally-i-have-clean-atomizer*html www_e-cigarette-forum_com/forum/experiments-equipment/10475-cola-method-taken-another-level-works*html etc.) I considered buying some 75% phosphoric acid (Nu-Calgon Ice Machine cleaner www_bflsupply_com/shopsite_sc/product4967*html ). At first glance, it sounds safe (i.e. britishsoftdrinks_com/Default.aspx?page=410 and see link 2 below).

BUT, as many have warned, these ideas are experimental. When heated, phosphoric acid will produce a poisonous gas called phosphine (or phosphane, another name, see links 4, 5, 8) and if in contact with a metal, produces a metallic phosphate, a solid soluble in water, another poisonous toxin (see links 3, 5, 6, 7).

My conclusion is that a double, boiling water rinse procedure is important. The first boil may leave nickel phosphate on the atomizer coil and release a small amount of the highly poisonous gas, phosphine. The second boil should remove the remainder of the nickel phosphate from the heating element.


If this is not done, (I don't really know but maybe) death could occur. These byproducts are deadly, used in rat poison and fumigators (see link 1).



1. www_absoluteastronomy_com/topics/Rat_poison
2. en_wikipedia_org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
3. en_wikipedia_org/wiki/Phosphate
4. in_answers_yahoo_com/question/index?qid=20090408012406AAEfLKi
5. www_inchem_org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg028*htm
6. findarticles_com/p/articles/mi_7106/is_2_84/ai_n28407639/
7. www_imc-group_com/msds/Nickel%20Phosphate.pdf
8. en_wikipedia_org/wiki/Phosphine

80063r--A very good heads up. People need to use common sense and not fool around with thinks they know nothing about. We only have a few real Chemists that are members here--So heed to warnings is correct--Good post---Sun

 

[exogenesis]

Good 'find', that's a good scare,
but I've got to say I'm not at all convinced.

Please don't take this the wrong way,
but I think you've made a connection somewhere that doesn't hold up.

I think the statement
"When heated, phosphoric acid will produce a poisonous gas called phosphine"
is not entirely accurate.
That would require an incredibly strong reducing agent chemical to be present.

Not saying it's wrong, but could you say where you found information for the above process?,

Was your conclusion based on the answers.yahoo link you gave?
The question there was:
"When we heat phosphorus acid it gives phosphoric acid and phosphane.what will be its equation?"
which received no phosphine/phosphane related answers,
and was a pre-supposed statement (quite possibly erroneous).

Phosphine is produced commercially with far different starting reagents to phosphoric acid.

Metal phosphate salts producing phosphine?, again could you provide
some link to any information about this process, I can't find any.

Anyway, as always it's best to be safe than sorry,
vigilence about possible reactions when using
chemicals for atomizer cleaning is certainly a good idea,
but it needs to be based on real information, before invoking the 'death' word.

 

[80063r]

Was your conclusion based on the answers.yahoo link you gave?
The question there was:
"When we heat phosphorus acid it gives phosphoric acid and phosphane.what will be its equation?"
which received no phosphine/phosphane related answers,
and was a pre-supposed statement (quite possibly erroneous).

OK, OK, you got me. I didn't do enough homework. Sorry. I'll try to correct myself after researching.

I seems that the page that lead me on to this "research" was mistaken in terms (or spelling). The production of Phosphine applies to heating Phosphorous acid, not Phosphoric acid:

books.google_com/books?id=I-hHAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=phosphoric+acid+phosphine&source=bl&ots=-5Atf6OeUU&sig=OeIhlF-uE4ybGHzFrgEcyZdXLqQ&hl=en&ei=XLTzSZ6uJZ3OMabT3LwP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#PPA316,M1

Phosphorous acid H3Po3 forms as one of the phoducts of the slow oxidation of phosphorus is moist air. It is best prepared by treating phosphorus trichloride with water and driving off the hydrochloric acid formed simultaneously, by heating to 180°. The acid forms very hygroscopic crystals that melt at 70°. On heating, it decomposes into phosphoric acid and phosphine:

4 H3PO3 = 3 H3PO4 + PH3

At the high temperature at which the reaction takes place, the phosphoric acid formed passes over into metaphosphoric acid, and the phosphine burnes with a green flame. Though phosphorous acid has three hydrogen atoms in the molecule, it is only dibasic. Its salts correspond to the type NaHPO3, the third hydrogen atom not being replaceable by a metal.

I've also read elsewhere that heating phosphoric acid produces metaphosphoric acid, so I'm rather sure this is true. But this leads to wondering what metaphosphoric acid would do. It is a skin irritant capable of causing burns:

www*wordwebonline*com/en/METAPHOSPHORICACID

Noun: metaphosphoric acid

1. A glassy solid acid ([HPO3]n) often used as a dehydrating agent

Derived forms: metaphosphoric acids

Type of: polyphosphoric acid

msds.chem.ox.ac*uk/PH/meta-phosphoric_acid*html

Toxicology:

Corrosive - skin contact may cause burns. Harmful if swallowed.

Personal protection:

Safety glasses. Do not breathe dust.

Well, I guess it may not be deadly, but I still wouldn't want to breathe it.

I still think a double, boiling water rinse cycle is important.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Exogenesis---Although 80063r may have gotten his facts wrong, this is a good example of how anyone could get there facts wrong that went the other way. That is thinking something is Safe when in fact it is not--So I say that this is a good example where ignorance will in fact harm you---------------Sun

 

[Nuck]

Well, to be fair it's not like people are vaping the cleaner directly. Everyone that uses it seem to rinse very heavily. I rinsed, soaked in alcohol for a bit then rinsed it heavily again to flush it. Then I blew it out and primed with juice.

I'm pretty sure at the point, I get more phosphoric acid up my nose while drinking a coke that I could ever get from the atomizer.

 

[exogenesis]

Thanks for the clarification 80063r,
won't be buying any phosphorous acid for cleaning atty's then

The metaphosphoric acid thing is more interesting,
it's a solid, & I think when it dissolves in water it reverts back to
phosphoric acid ?.
But if any small amount were to be produced
(if you were to heat phosphoric acid on the atomizer coil),
it would sublime into the air, & it would be naff stuff to inhale,
it's a respiratory tract irritant like most acids,
so probably similar to inhaling just phosphoric acid fumes then.
Best not to vape on the atomizer directly after heating strong phos.acid then


Sun Vaporer, I do see what you mean, in fact there's probably more
danger from things like the fact that the words 'phosphorous acid' &
'phosphoric acid' look & sound similar.
If anyone had access to the former and ignorance of the difference
(probably unlikely), and then heated it on their atty coil, then yikes.

Realistically I don't think anyones suggesting heating stong phosphoric acid
on the atomizer coil anyway.


Nuck - I chuckled when I read that, you could well be right,
perhaps there should be a study phosphoric acid inhalation effects
on Cola drinkers



Actually for me all this really boils down to how easily/well any
chemical used can be washed out from the highly retentive
atomizer metal mesh.
Quite probably this is the most understated factor in all of this.

I'm thinking of a dye test here -
e.g. soak atomizer in a strong flouroscein solution (or similar),
that shouldn't bind (to any great degree) to any atomizer plastic/other parts,
and see just how much soaking/rinsing is required until no traces
of the dye are coming out.

I bet it'll be a lot more than people generally assume....

 

[StoneE4]

I'm thinking of a dye test here -
e.g. soak atomizer in a strong flouroscein solution (or similar),
that shouldn't bind (to any great degree) to any atomizer plastic/other parts,
and see just how much soaking/rinsing is required until no traces
of the dye are coming out.

I bet it'll be a lot more than people generally assume....

Excellent idea, exogenesis.

Keep us posted if you give it a shot.

 

[exogenesis]

I've bought various low-concentration-visible flourescent dyes,
will post results as soon as I've got somat...

 

[Hexum]

Exogenesis, have you determined any results yet? This is a fascinating experiment.

 

[exogenesis]

I did a test, but visualising weak solutions of flourescent dyes
even with a powerful UV lamp wasn't as easy or sensitive as I had hoped.

I'm going to switch to testing acid 'rinse effectiveness' by measuring pH
(I happen to have a proper pH meter & standard buffers)
which will give much more accuracy & sensitivity.

Have it mind to rinse-test stong phos.acid for a first go,
then strongly acidified e-liquid to see if the viscous-ness is a large factor
(or not).

Will post results when I get round to it,
if anyone's particulary interested I could get to it sooner rather than later.

 

[kinabaloo]

I happen to have a proper pH meter & standard buffers.

Beats having a fondue set

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I did a test, but visualising weak solutions of flourescent dyes
even with a powerful UV lamp wasn't as easy or sensitive as I had hoped.

I'm going to switch to testing acid 'rinse effectiveness' by measuring pH
(I happen to have a proper pH meter & standard buffers)
which will give much more accuracy & sensitivity.

Have it mind to rinse-test stong phos.acid for a first go,
then strongly acidified e-liquid to see if the viscous-ness is a large factor
(or not).

Will post results when I get round to it,
if anyone's particulary interested I could get to it sooner rather than later.

Exo--always interested--lets see those results when you can--Thanks--Sun

 

[surbitonPete]

I did a test, but visualising weak solutions of flourescent dyes
even with a powerful UV lamp wasn't as easy or sensitive as I had hoped.

I'm going to switch to testing acid 'rinse effectiveness' by measuring pH
(I happen to have a proper pH meter & standard buffers)
which will give much more accuracy & sensitivity.

Have it mind to rinse-test stong phos.acid for a first go,
then strongly acidified e-liquid to see if the viscous-ness is a large factor
(or not).

Will post results when I get round to it,
if anyone's particulary interested I could get to it sooner rather than later.

I am definitely interested in your finding Exo....I do think you may be right that it takes a lot more than we would like to think to clean out any chemicals that might be used to clean a coil.

 

[exogenesis]

Rightyho then,
gives me something to play with this weekend....

 

[saphic]

I was kinda thinking this was the same stuff in coke. I think I'll just stick to alcohol.

 

[Elendil]

Coming late to this thread, but I am wondering about conclusions of the experiments............

 

[Quit4myKids]

I'm wondering myself. Exo, it's been a couple of weeks. If you got busy, that's understandable, but I thought it might be worth checking in on the progress of this.

Please keep us posted.

Q4mK

 

[StoneE4]

I'm wondering myself. Exo, it's been a couple of weeks...

Yeah, only a couple of weeks.

 

[Quit4myKids]

Well, Exo said, "gives me something to play with this weekend...." on May 7th....

There are a couple of weeks in that timeframe! Something tells me that exogenesis has left the building.

Q4mK