We owe it to don and the newbs....

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phorbin

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    copied from old social center to let the discussion continue (this might explain why i'm only moving a few of the threads)

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    1. lasttango - Yesterday 01:48 PM - permalink
      I am just getting so frustrated and annoyed by the nature of the lackluster reviews that BWB has been getting since it's popularity explosion.
      I know it's 1 in 10 or less that doesn't like it - but most of the time, it is for the same two reasons. Lack of steep time or impatience...

      or the person who gets the juice really isn't a good candidate for BWB in the first place.

      I can deal with bad reviews, but so many are so unnecessary.

      I kind of started becoming friends with DOn before his major popularity explosion... last Spring - as I got to know him better, I understood a few things about him... while it might be a business to him, this business is truly about making good juice and good friends for him. He does want to make good juice and he likes people. He enjoys his connections with his customers.​
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    2. lasttango - Yesterday 01:49 PM - permalink
      Part 2................................

      It seems that the major criticism is:
      "I don't get any flavor."

      ...and one, it could be the steeping issue...
      but it also could be a BWB thing...

      I don't know why many of you guys like BWB.

      My first conversation with Don many months ago went like this: Man, I really love your juice. Finally, I am not being assaulted and overwhelmed with superficial flavor. The flavor is complex and subtle. Other juices make me kinda sick. Your juice performs so well... one or two drops lasts me 3x longer than most juices.

      Don'sreply went something like this:
      That's why I started making juice... This juice and that juice made me feel so sick. Too much flavor etc...​
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    3. lasttango - Yesterday 01:50 PM - permalink
      Part 3...........................

      I don't want to assume that you all love bwb for the same reason I do...

      But I think we can better prepare potential customers for what they are in for...

      or... we could say screw 'em ;-) I just am such a fanboy that I feel like writing an essay to everyone that makes a negative post - well, the ones that complain about lack of flavor anyway... It isn't fair.
      If they simply don't like it, I can live with that.​
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    4. lasttango - Yesterday 01:54 PM - permalink
      Part 4....

      What are your thoughts?

      First, do you agree that Don's juices have more subtle and more complex flavor? (espresso being one major exception)

      Would you agree that people who love strong flavors may not be the best candidates?

      How would you describe Don's juice? What's the MO?

      I'd say: complex, subtle and excellent performance.

      -Geoff​
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    5. phorbin - Yesterday 02:29 PM - permalink
      i'll try to tackle those in the order you asked them in part 4:
      1) yes i agree they are more subtle and complex, like you I felt overpowered by a lot of other juice on the market and this is indeed one of my biggest reasons for being a fan of BWB
      2) Yes i would, for the most part, agree with that. Although Don does make a few strong"er" flavors that even these folks might appreciate. I'm primarily thinking of the coffee flavors here.
      3) I find some of Dons juices hard to describe using those "wine tasting" words people like to toss around. One of the reasons is the complexity of some of the juices, like ejokers blend for example. But I try my best to convey my impression of flavors as accurately as I can. I like to assume that my reader or viewer, if a video review, is smart enough to interpret what i'm saying. This could be the basic flaw in my premise though.​
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    6. phorbin - Yesterday 02:31 PM - permalink
      in short....i think as a group we do a pretty decent job defending BWB when those negative reviews come up. The only thing i would like to say (and i'm looking in the mirror when i say this) is we could do a bit better of a job not making it personal. I'm not pointing fingers at you or anyone else, except me obviously. But I know i'm not the only one who has gotten a little fired up by someone who was flaming BWB as opposed to making a legit negative review.​
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    7. jplanet - Yesterday 02:49 PM - permalink
      The good far outweighs the bad regarding BWB on this forum...I think that the positive attention for BWB is exploded through the roof on ECF - most negative reviews I read in general seem to be from people who are newer and don't let things steep. I think that review readers on ECF take negative reviews and reviews form new members with a grain of salt...I also get the impression that Dan is busy as all hell thanks to the positive reviews and strong fan base that he has here...​
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    8. upstatEpuff - Yesterday 05:18 PM - permalink
      I agree with you tango, I am a fan of BWB juice but am not an exclusive BWB vaper. I do on occassion poke around on other vendors sites and order a sample pack here or there. I have found however for the majority of the time, BWB is in my PVs.
      They are complex.
      They are subtle.
      I don't like all of the juices I have tried either. I just believe that overall the effect Don is trying to produce throughout his brews is achieved.
      I will raise my hand as one of those people who gets defensive when I see a negative review or when I can see someone is obv. flaming BWB juice.
      I'm not sure if that is because I am sticking up for a really good guy or if I just get frustrated that, and this is why I rarely post reviews anymore, people don't see the words being used by BWB vets when they describe this line of juices.​
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    9. Wharf Rat - Yesterday 05:18 PM - permalink
      Tango I completely agree. I've been here a little while (order #33 on his current site, just placed #4134). What attracted me great vp and lack of the cloyingly over done flavor. I appreciate the reserved and natural flavors of Don's brews. When I see people asking about double shots, I wonder if BWB is right for them yet maybe it works. I have 3+ month old espresso and cap and I keep going back and they just don't fit my taste buds. Too strong for me ,but again that's personal because I know how well loved it is.
      It's the beauty of life and the vaping world. Different strokes for different folks and just just because it's not good to you doesn't mean it's not loved by others.
      Thanks Tango~great post!!!​
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    10. upstatEpuff - Yesterday 05:20 PM - permalink
      It's a toss-up for me about how to deal with this.
      I don't want to turn a newb off on this juice because of adjectives like subtle, complex and the need for steeping.
      Tango,
      I've just quickly wanted to say, your one of the first people I found on ECF that I followed through your posts. Your reviews brought me to BWB.
      I have noticed lately you do seem to get upset over this situation uneducated people (in regards to BWB juice) posting there comments and reviews that in no way shape or form reflect the majority consensus.
      I think it's great you posted this and hope we can put our heads together and think of how to address this issue.​
     

    phorbin

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      #
      Lyndagayle - Yesterday 05:53 PM - permalink

      I agree with you Tango. The subtle, yet complex flavor and the clean taste is what makes it unique. I have never gotten sick on BWB and I have had some outrageous vaping sessions. I get very upset when I see anything negative posted against Don's juice. I know most are just trying to give a true description of their experience but--I have seen a few posts that threw up a big red flag. I'll leave it at that b/c I'm sure you all have picked up on them too. Honestly, I don't know how to handle the newbs. I'm such a fangirl, I want to tell everyone to save the frustration of tracking down a good juice and just start with BWB and yet I know that people who require a strong "smack you in the face" flavor will more than likely be disappointed. Shame on me for getting out of line with some of the negative reviews. I'm really trying hard to sit on my hands and post only when I know I can be nice. Sometimes being a BWB addict is just plain tough.

      Great post Tango!

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      # PapaBloog
      PapaBloog - Yesterday 06:49 PM - permalink

      Tango - I am as much a babe in the woods newb vaper as it comes - and, my first BwB experience out of the mailer was WTH, what is this?! But, that said, I thought the same from purchases I made from Halo, wordupecig, nhaler, cloud9, V4L, and on and on and on. After all, most of us noobs don't get flavor in our juices because we had just recently quit 'unflavored' or 'menthol' analogs as our only two points of basis. I think I even posted once that Don's juices are for more experienced vapers - did anyone like beer or coffee on their first taste? I didn't...

      I guess we can direct the horses to water - but, had it not been for the Almighty answering BwB faq's - I might not have found my sweet spot. I love both the performance and the subtle taste of Don's juices - to me, I have found mecca --

      Great post(s)! - now, what to do?

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      # phorbin
      phorbin - Yesterday 07:03 PM - permalink

      same with me Epuff....I also blame Tango for my Boba's addiction. Its one of the few non BWB juices that gets into my PVs any more.

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      # lasttango
      lasttango - Yesterday 11:25 PM - permalink

      Don would approve of your Boba's addiction... I think many BWB lovers enjoy Boba's.

      Thanks for the responses. I had actually written something fairly cohesive and more eloquent... but the 1000 word limit surprised me and I lost the 6000 words after the first 1000 ~~~

      I do think we are doing a pretty good job educating folks.

      It's been about a year - in less than three weeks - I guess I am getting cranky.

      ECF months are sort of like Dog Years eh?

      It's the audacity that gets me...

      I give the rudeness a 7/10
      and the snarkiness in the reviews about an 8.4/10
      and the knowledge of the reviewers about a 1/10
      the overall audacity a 9/10

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      # Wharf Rat
      Wharf Rat - Today 01:51 AM - permalink

      LOL Tango...... cranky or funny?
       

      Dee74

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        I do agree Tango, but maybe that is a good thing right now. Don is having issues with stock and keeping supplies in. And many new vapors need all the flavor they can get to get off analogs as well as time for their taste buds to return. Newbies maybe just are not ready and yes, still impatient. We were there once. As much as I love his juice there are times I wished I could push just a tad more flavor, usually in the mornings. It would be nice option to have available to those who desire it. Don't worry Don's a big guy and his business taking off big time is more than enough to offset a few griping newbies. They will come around after trying 50 other vendors!
         

        drew_devereaux

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          I ordered 3 more 30mL bottles of menthol from Don yesterday. I noticed on his revamped site that he is telling people that they need to let some flavors steep, especially the tobacco ones. I've loved his menthol from day one. His other flavors are good, but, ultimately I've decided menthol is what I smoked for 20+ years and that's what I want to vape. Fruit or sweet flavors are fun, but not really my thing. I wonder how many noobs aren't going to like any non-tobacco flavors and are giving some bad reviews?
           

          Ruppy

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            I really beleive its a lack of understanding and/or believing in steeping. I know I was very skeptical of how it could possibly matter. When I started vaping I went through juice suppliers like most people do socks. Some I liked some I didnt. After awhile I had so much juice I realized I needed to actually use some of it. As I di, I realized ALOT of it was so much better. After that I took the time to compare and age my juice and immediately began enjoying vaping that much more.

            Fortunately I finally found BWB and 80% of my juice comes from Don now. Now if I could just get him to send me some Adirondack :p
             

            upstatEpuff

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              Loving tango's review of the negative reviewers he even used the numbers!!! hahaha

              I might have a sort of solution, what if we start a thread where newbs can ask questions and some of the BWB crew can answer them?

              Or maybe.....A sticky or closed type thread where Don or Tango or Phor can post what BWB is all about? Using some of our catchy adjectives like complex, subtle, full bodied, or whatever other ones we seem to use when we describe Don's juice like a fine bottle of wine.
               

              phorbin

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                Loving tango's review of the negative reviewers he even used the numbers!!! hahaha

                I might have a sort of solution, what if we start a thread where newbs can ask questions and some of the BWB crew can answer them?

                Or maybe.....A sticky or closed type thread where Don or Tango or Phor can post what BWB is all about? Using some of our catchy adjectives like complex, subtle, full bodied, or whatever other ones we seem to use when we describe Don's juice like a fine bottle of wine.

                well there are some rules that social groups have to observe. For example I know Don is allowed to be a member of the crew, but i just learned today that he cannot use the social page as a platform for his products. He can only socialize here with us. so that space I gave don in the old section, technically that was a bad move on my part because it violated a ECF policy. I would have to do some investigating to find out exactly how those rules work. I imagine we can do something like that, but we might not be able to do it in this section of the forums.
                 

                icemanx3

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                  His revamped site looks good. Cleaner, more professional I'd say. I am going to have to pop in and slap down some coin for some of his liquid magic.

                  It's funny, when I read the thread the other night about new vapers not getting the steep thing with BWB and his juices in general, I almost suggested that someone let him know he should post something about steeping on his site. Guess he beat me to it :p

                  ice
                   

                  uzzaperez

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                    I want to comment on this thread but first I should point out that I rarely let things steep before trying them. So I can't really speak about that.

                    The only way I get a steeped juice is from having enough different juices, and liking to change it up enough, that a 30ml bottle of a single flavor may last a month or two depending.

                    Even with this M.O., Backwoods Brew is tier 1 juice.
                     

                    uzzaperez

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                      Second, I have ordered hundreds of juices from probably 30 vendors. I've found maybe five or so vendors that I would actually recommend, and each for completely different reasons.

                      Backwoods Brew is in that five, probably at the top. I've only been ordering from them recently, but what has impressed me is the incredibly low disappointment rate. I've ordered maybe 15 or so different juices from them now, and I have never been disappointed a single time.

                      That's not to say I've liked every juice, though most I have - but even if I didn't like the flavor, I could tell it was a good juice - it would appeal to somebody appreciated that taste. Contrast that with another of my favorite vendors who is a favorite because they have a few select juices that I just love. They have a huge selection, I've tried most all of it, and a very large number of their juices are just disappointing. They just aren't good, and often too weak. They are half-ashed efforts with medicore results. It seems they are more concerned with having a large selection than having every juice be a truly great juice, and you have to find the winners.

                      The thing I like most about Backwoods Brew, and the reason I think they've become so highly regarded, is that, while they have a good selection, you can pretty much count on high quality. The flavor might not be for you, that's the way flavor works, but the juice will produce good vapor and high quality flavor. It just doesn't dissapoint.
                       

                      uzzaperez

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                        The third thing is atties. Opinions will vary as wildly on atties as the do on juice, but people have to recognize how an atty changes the juice. I find it funny that Backwoods just added LR 306 atties to their site. I like an LR 306 - for good vapor. But imo they are absolute murder on the flavor. I have some flavors that I can't vape in a Vapor4Life premium cartomizer because they are just too strong, it just isn't pleasant. If I put those same juices in a Cisco LR 306 - they taste pretty good, still strong, but now enjoyable.

                        If I have a flavor thats good but a bit subtle in my cartomizer, it will taste like there is just barely a hint of flavor in an LR 306. Because so many people are into LR 510s and 306s these days, it seems to take a pretty strong flavor to catch some folk's attention. Its all relative, so a good juice is still good, but some people can only appreciate really strong flavors. If you find that very few flavors are strong enough for you, you are probably missing out on the flavor front. And most likely you are relatively new to vaping, or have stuck to very few flavors and don't try around. If flavor is important to you and only the very strong satisfy, you may want to play around with your choice of atty and voltage to see if you can get more enjoyment out of it.

                        Expectations of atties and juices are relative to experience. The ONLY way to really be able to tell the good from the bad is experience and trying around. I know because even with my own posts, the earlier it was in my experience the more likely I am to think what I said is bullshi*. Never trust a newb review.

                        Sorry for the long rant, but this thread caught my interest and I had to comment...extensively.
                         

                        UntamedRose

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                          well there are some rules that social groups have to observe. For example I know Don is allowed to be a member of the crew, but i just learned today that he cannot use the social page as a platform for his products. He can only socialize here with us. so that space I gave don in the old section, technically that was a bad move on my part because it violated a ECF policy. I would have to do some investigating to find out exactly how those rules work. I imagine we can do something like that, but we might not be able to do it in this section of the forums.

                          In general suppliers can be a member of a social group...they can hang out go Whats up! ect...but they can't talk about their company at all. So Don can hang at say "we loves fishin and vaping while hunting" but he cant advertise talk about his company. Its the same thing here..just a little harder as this is a company specif group. I know it's a little weird but it's a conflict for the suppliers with their own supplier forums(which I hope Don's gotten on the waiting list for, think he needs one personally)
                          There are plenty....Plenty of knowledgeable customers who are willing and able to answer any questions that pop up here for Don. I would imagine the majority of Q's will be in the supplier forum thread anyway at least from true newbies.
                          Let him just goof off and be just Don in this section.

                          I do have to say...I wouldnt worry to much about folks not liking Don's juices. Yall saw the rush on RY4/Ejoker. Man has his hands full with way to many happy customers as it. He has a strong loyal customer base he will be fine.
                          Besides, everyone has their preferences. I'm sure there is a company out there you can think of that you can't understand what folks see(taste) in them.
                           
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