What did Jesus have to say about the rapture?
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Luke 17:20-37
[20] Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, [21] nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
[22] Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. [23] Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. [24] For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. [25] But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
[26] "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. [27] People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
[28] "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. [29] But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
[30] "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. [31] On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. [32] Remember Lot's wife! [33] Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [34] I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. [35] Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."
I look at these verses and, to me, it means that the righteous will be taken right before Armageddon, the destruction of this system. I just don't see any scriptures that show that we will be taken before the tribulation begins. I"ve love to be proven wrong, I don't enjoy the thought of having to live through the tribulation, but I really believe that we will have to endure it.
Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years" (Rev. 20:4-6).
"He was given power to make war against THE SAINTS and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. He who has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of THE SAINTS" (Rev. 13:7-10).
"They overcame him [the devil] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death" (Rev. 12:11)
Clearly, these verses show that there will be many christians alive during the tribulation, and they will be rescued right before the end, just like it was in the days of noah, God sealed up the ark and then the end came.
You should really listen to his Lesson (it's at the bottom of the article I linked). I think it answers a lot of questions you have. I'll talk a little more about the scripture you listed when I have time to hit the good book, unfortunately during the day I only have 5-10 minutes at a time since I'm at work. I can totally see where you're getting your interpretation out of those scriptures, I just don't read it the same way. You have to take into account the context of history, which I think is really important to this subject, and the bible in general.
Actually, after listening to the whole class, I realize there's nothing I can or would say that he doesn't on the subject, and I can't wait until he puts up his next class online, which deals less with rapture and more with the specificity of the second coming.
Bob, the speaker/writer, is a Pastor with Ventura Vineyard, and a Graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary.
Bob, the speaker/writer, is a Pastor with Ventura Vineyard, and a Graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary.
Just listen to the lesson, I promise it's not preachy or abrasive, it's more like a classroom lecture by a guy with enough charisma to keep it from being boring. It's the best thing I've exposed my ears to in quite some time, and helped me remember that not all preachers are boring 
And he does cover at least a couple of those passages that you referenced. If you can't find the time I'll try and scrub back through and paraphrase the directly relevant parts.
And he does cover at least a couple of those passages that you referenced. If you can't find the time I'll try and scrub back through and paraphrase the directly relevant parts.Just listen to the lesson, I promise it's not preachy or abrasive, it's more like a classroom lecture by a guy with enough charisma to keep it from being boring. It's the best thing I've exposed my ears to in quite some time, and helped me remember that not all preachers are boring
I don't want to listen to an online preacher, I"m having a discussion with you. I want to know how you specifically interpret the scriptures that I referenced above.
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Okay, Hex....I read the post. My immediate answer to it is 'hogwash!'
You are posting what Jesus had to say about the rapture? You can find it in Matthew 24:36-44. This is Jesus speaking. What I find interesting is in verse 37, He says that 'For as in the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.'
Jesus is equating it to Noah and the great flood. No other time....why? Because the judgement was poured upon the earth to those who rejected Him. But in verse 38, Jesus states 'until the day that Noah entered the ark.' He saved Noah and Noah's family. WHY? Because Noah was a righteous man and he and his family were saved. I can only imagine how that ark smelled, but that's another conversation.
Then in verse 40, Jesus talks about two men in a field and one will be taken and other left. Then further on in Scripture, it's self explanatory.
And before it's said that the word 'rapture' is not found in the Bible, I totally agree. However, the text means a great taking away....the Greek word 'rapio.' Don't take my word for it. Check it out.
Now about people only believing in the rapture for 140 years, I find that a bit difficult to swallow as it was conjecture UNTIL Israel became a nation in May 1948. I will get you more Scripture, but the above is what came to mind.
Whatever medium you'll accept, I'll not deny you in hopes that you'll actually contemplate it, but if you really are interested in answers Bob puts forward good scripture based reasoning with historical and cultural explanations. I say this from Christian to Christian, not as rivals or adversaries.
With that I'll have to return to my original statement and get back to you when I can as it's taken me about 20 minutes just to write this in between phone calls and meetings.
With that I'll have to return to my original statement and get back to you when I can as it's taken me about 20 minutes just to write this in between phone calls and meetings.
I would implore you too, to listen to the lesson then, or wait for my translation of it to page, because that's pretty much all covered throughout the hour long study. Your reaction to the article also is covered in the q&a session at the end of the lesson. This guy is a biblical scholar, not someone like me who has far less intimate knowledge of the bible, it's history, and it's translations through the ages, and thus a less than whole picture. The insights he provided me during the lesson were very thorough and great education.
He actually knows and explains the history of the rapture theory, and follows it from it's conception to the current day before moving onto another subject in the full lesson. I can and will explain some of that when I get a chance to answer Lisa's questions though if you can't find the time.
I"m going to warn you against listening to any preacher or pastor and believing everything that they say. Do your own study and research, pray long and hard about it. Don't ever buy what someone else says hook line and sinker just because it sounds good. This is your own salvation you're talking about, not something to take lightly.
This is the reason I do not belong to any church, or attend any church, or listen to just one person's interpretation of scripture. I do my own homework, my own study, my own research, and I pray about it and let God teach me. I would suggest you do the same if you are indeed searching for truth.
I'd already come to the same conclusion as this preacher through my own years of study, and not belonging to a formal congregation. The reason I reference Bob is because he knows the passage numbers that I've long forgotten, he knows the history and context that I never had access to, and he's a better writer/speaker than I am. I could reference my brother, who was also a pastor for some time, or list a number of denominations that have similar beliefs, but I didn't think they would be as to the point as this pastor's lesson.
Also, I've seen the sources of your research that you've posted, and I'd be careful to follow your own advice. You seem to almost always follow the same people, or followers of those people. I don't subscribe to their methods of leading people to faith through fear, in fact I find it to all be in very counter productive in forming a lasting relationship with Christ. Those that weren't busy sewing fear were planting seeds of hate and anger towards other religions (the New Age Movement, Islam), or forms of entertainment (Rock music, pop media). It's important to understand these things so you can protect yourself from their influence, but to create animosity towards them and pass judgement on them is simply not in Christ's teachings.
I've also given you the same schpeel about believing what people say, specifically in reference to their motives. I won't pretend to know Bob's, but I did come to the same conclusion that he did, and so I appreciate the lesson and the clarity in which he provided it.
It does not seem that you're actually interested in continuing this discussion though. If you're just going to continue to try and goad me into making some rash post or mistake I'll just leave it be, and you can seek this post out and listen to the lesson when you're ready.
Also, I've seen the sources of your research that you've posted, and I'd be careful to follow your own advice. You seem to almost always follow the same people, or followers of those people. I don't subscribe to their methods of leading people to faith through fear, in fact I find it to all be in very counter productive in forming a lasting relationship with Christ. Those that weren't busy sewing fear were planting seeds of hate and anger towards other religions (the New Age Movement, Islam), or forms of entertainment (Rock music, pop media). It's important to understand these things so you can protect yourself from their influence, but to create animosity towards them and pass judgement on them is simply not in Christ's teachings.
I've also given you the same schpeel about believing what people say, specifically in reference to their motives. I won't pretend to know Bob's, but I did come to the same conclusion that he did, and so I appreciate the lesson and the clarity in which he provided it.
It does not seem that you're actually interested in continuing this discussion though. If you're just going to continue to try and goad me into making some rash post or mistake I'll just leave it be, and you can seek this post out and listen to the lesson when you're ready.
You have to be real careful who you listen to and follow because the lord said in the end days there will be allot of false prophets. I'm not saying this guy is. I only follow one thing, Jesus. That way I know I'm following truth and light. Religion is man made and has been corrupted for along time.
Yeah, this guy is no prophet tho, nor claiming to be one, just a qualified pastor. To the contrary he's effectively debunking people who are trying to interpret the bible in a prophetic manor. It is written that we won't know when the end is here, what purpose does guessing achieve? Always be ready.
It sounds like there are alot of thinking, sincere people here. If we keep seeking, we'll find.
Not to sidetrack this thread, but I'm concerned about something a number of christian vapers have said. Things like:
You're not alone, I've seen it in other threads too.
So, I'd like to urge everyone to find a fellowship. Get connected to the body & you'll be connected to the head.
(BTW, putting up w/ other people's differing opinions may be even harder in a church setting than it is here. Trust me, it's worth it!)
OK, just wanted to encourage you. You can go back to your lively discussion now. Sorry to interrupt!!
Not to sidetrack this thread, but I'm concerned about something a number of christian vapers have said. Things like:
or
You're not alone, I've seen it in other threads too.
So, I'd like to urge everyone to find a fellowship. Get connected to the body & you'll be connected to the head.
(BTW, putting up w/ other people's differing opinions may be even harder in a church setting than it is here. Trust me, it's worth it!)
OK, just wanted to encourage you. You can go back to your lively discussion now. Sorry to interrupt!!
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Yeah, since I left Oregon 5 years ago I've had a hard time finding a new church that I felt connected to. Admittedly I've probably not looked hard enough. Thanks for the encouragement, I'm starting to think more about it again, in part because of the happenings here.
LOL...I"m not trying to goad you Hex, not at all. I was trying to engage you in conversation about the scriptures. After all, this is a christian forum. I posted some scriptures and asked your opinion about them, that's all. For some reason, you don't want to discuss the verses, and that's ok. But, I'm not goading you into anything. You posted a thread, I replied to try and converse with you on a topic that we are both interested in. I just don't want to listen to a sermon, I wanted an actual back and forth conversation with you about the scriptures.
I'm with you 5cardstud. Alot of the churches have false leaders, been there done that. I let Jesus Himself teach me, and I"m really doing great that way!
John 1:7 “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
“...inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.” (Matthew 25:40). Therefore, would we refuse to gather with Jesus when the opportunity is given? If we refuse to gather with our brethren, we have, in reality, refused to gather with Jesus. “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20).
I don't think fellowship must be a formal church, but it does mean coming together with other believers for study and worship.
“...inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.” (Matthew 25:40). Therefore, would we refuse to gather with Jesus when the opportunity is given? If we refuse to gather with our brethren, we have, in reality, refused to gather with Jesus. “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20).
I don't think fellowship must be a formal church, but it does mean coming together with other believers for study and worship.
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