What will be the ultimate undoing of The United States?

[THE]

The USA ( a semi-democratic constitutional republic ) really ended in around 1965, sorry but true, it's gone, you are just shaking a ghost!

and the last man of importance to speak out and warn about the industrialist conspiracy was Dwight David "Ike" Eisenhower and he was just laughed off, and the people elected good old "Pie in the Sky" Kennedy


now pardon me while i concentrate more on my "Snake oil diet" ( a diet based on fish oil and pond scum ) to avoid the poisonous "American Refined Carbohydrate Diet" and try to avoid having my legs amputated.

It's all so clear to me now
Oh Boy

 

[THE]

That is really offensive.

Sorry, but it's true. Good honest capitalism punishes the good hell out of lazy minded people. And some people want it that way. They want to be down their whole lives and have something to whine about. In capitalism, they get that. The people who want success, they get success.

*shrug*

 

[THE]

5% owning everything is the nature and goal of any capital dominated economy by the end. Capital builds yet more capital, thats the nature of the system. Without getting extremely long winded into economic theory unless you want it you can always do some studying on it yourself.



Modern government does aid this behavior, on that we agree. But again this is the nature of the beast in a capital dominated structure. Its not always the "more you get away with" though it is at times, but its the more you CAN enable or simply accomplish. The capital allows you these opportunity's. As capital accumulation takes place and concentration builds it in turns enables more growth and more accumulation. Look at corporate mergers, buyouts as examples that are readily understandable. This is not limited to the business sector either, it occurs in the private sector also.



Im not sure you understand a flat tax or a scaling tax. A true flat tax is exactly that, flat across all social strata. Be it 5% or 45% it the same if you make $50 or $5 Million. The issue i stated earlier is that a flat rate high enough to "Make the rich pull their weight" is going to be MASSIVE to anybody less income oriented than them.
45% of $5 Million is $2,250,000
45% of $50k is going to be $22,500
45% of $50 is $22.50
The math is ultimately destructive to the lower classes -and- middle class when levied in a way to "make the rich pull their weight" yet if lowered to 5% or so becomes a PITTANCE to the capital rich. Thus the normal solution is a sliding scale income based tax. Our current tax system IS BROKEN, i will not argue that you are correct.


Lower tax rates spur growth by encouraging business immigration and hiring. Higher taxes can have the opposite effect BUT causation is not correlation, different economic factors can effect matters in vastly and wildly ways. This whole subject itself has books written about it.



I did by refuting your logic. Why is it illegal? Show me how a law is being broken by tax collection and you have an argument, but without that you have theory craft. Im sorry I do not agree with current tax practices wither, I despise them in many ways but fair is fair to both sides at it is -now- constitutionally legal. Changing it is an admirable goal, but rallying around a false premise leads ultimately to defeat.



No argument on the interest point.

To end with, I have an interesting "Capital economics" video 101 you might enjoy, and I bet you might agree with much of it (and not so much other parts, but such is the nature of economics!). Its nicely drawn to go along with a lecture given just this year by David Harvey. I dont agree with parts myself but it is nothingless a good watch and can aid when I refer to capital accumulation.

YouTube - RSA Animate - Crises of Capitalism

Good night.

I don't believe that 5% would hold 95% if it was fair. The government protects crooked financial rapists who break every rule they care to at every turn. What you say makes sense. Capital building capital. But consider this, the average idiot has no choice but to hand his income over to the huge corporations (or doesn't know, if he does) and most people are beyond caring, now. They've learned that there's no point in it.

Say Joe Hardworker gets his $1500 paycheck for the month. The government steals 25%.. Now he has $1125.. Say $500 goes to his landowner or mortgage holder. Out of that remaining $625 he has to keep some kind of transportation. Even if he drives an older paid for car, let's say he spends $200 maintaining and insuring it. Great! He's got $425!! WoW!! So he spends $250 of that on utilities.. and now there's a whopping $175 left to feed his family.

Can he buy natural real food? IF he even knows where on earth to find it? No. He has to go to the local Wall-Hell and buy a pile of GMO and freezedried garbage and try to make it through the month.

If our government wasn't in bed with Monsanto.. If Wall-Store wasn't bringing the local economy to its knees.. Maybe you could buy some real food. But have you ever tried to stop Wall-Store? It is impossible. Why? They make the local government happy, give them a couple of and BLAM there they are.

No matter how you want to tax people.. Fair tax, flat tax, income tax.. The root of the problem is having ten times the government anyone actually wants and wasting nine of ten (or much more) dollars it steals.

You need to see what law is being broken by this strongarm tax collection? Are you serious here?
Extortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racket_(crime)
False imprisonment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They can't and WILL NOT prove that we're legally required to file a return or pay... They use administrative agencies for enforcement of ( laws that don't exist ).. They put people away after judges make statements like "I will not allow the law in my court room." <--- That was actually stated by a judge in open court, I believe when Schiff was on the chopping block.


I won't argue capital accumulation with you.. because you are right.
It's been explained to me ten different ways.
But I'll never believe that it should be as it is.

The government absolutely is NOT supposed to capitalize US. WE were supposed to be the capitalists. The PEOPLE!!


45% of $5 Million is $2,250,000
45% of $50k is going to be $22,500
45% of $50 is $22.50


Do you believe that it'd have to be anywhere near 45% if the people at the top were paying their share?? For a second??? As I said I won't be behind a flat tax, but they're on the right track. The fair tax looks good, in theory, but there are too many holes in it, too. (I believe that we're agreed on that) Several things wouldn't be taxed and it'd be far too easy to slide transactions by it.

There is just no way to fix it until they stop their looting and raping. Period. We have got to take back CONTROL OF OUR MONEY (which even the government hasn't got) and STOP WASTING 90% OF IT.

 

[THE]

Ive heard this idea before, and it has alot going for it in some aspects, but usually when brought up it it does not address other holes.

This still about a 23% tax, added onto everything purchased. What this does not adress is capital accumulation and concentration of capital. The idea of a fair system is also noble but as long as the issue of capital accumulation exists the unbalancing economic effects of it will still occur, and with this system it would change very little.

Money is, in a value term, a finite resource when viewed within a proper balanced economic framework. A fair tax or any other approach seeks to free up more of this assets into circulation, but when freed up it naturally gravitates towards income and production and spending. With more assets to spend those people will continue to accumulate more, classic capital economics. Assuming no more cash was dumped into the system to counteract this (Inflation) you get stronger and stronger deflation and concentration of value. Besides the flat rate of 23% little in this system addresses these issues, as deflation continues the impact of the 23% increases, but again NOT proportionality as those with more will always have more to spend, and those at the lower tiers feel the 23% in a way we might now feel %50.

Deflation of capital is considered one of the worst economic things that can happen once it proceeds past a point. The system you named has some interestings going for it, but ill stop now without even touching on the issues of Social Security, clinics, schooling, etc etc most of which would have to eliminated entirely for such a tax system to work, and would require the private sector to step in (As is its goal!). But recent events in the millitary sector and especially the Prison sector show us how a purely profit driven system functions, poorly unfairly and more profit driven than result or public driven.

Social security is a horrible mess all on its own. They've raped it for everything imaginable. Social security is actually propping the budget up.. when they have to start paying a-lot more of it out, the true deficit will show its ugly head and we're done.

Deflation isn't even the word for what's coming. What is our dollar actually WORTH? We sure as hell aren't producing much. How long are other currencies going to be largely based on ours? That's what gives our money a-lot of its "value", isn't it? It's sure as all hell not backed by any metal. Even if it was, the gold standard was a stupid idea, too. It's not impossible to manipulate the world supply of gold.

In my opinion our money should be silver based. Legally, I believe "one dollar" is supposed to be a certain measure of silver, any way. I don't think paper money is even legal, at all.

A finite resource, you say? Our money? That'd be nice.
How does any tax break free up or put resources into circulation? Every dollar the government gets (usually) is quickly spent..

Oh, I forgot, a huge percentage of it is NOT spent into OUR economy. How stupid of me. It goes to pay interest to the central banks!!


Darn the luck, snap the fingers, oops.

 

[THE]

Man, this internet is amazing... If you're ever trying to make a point, just look on youtube...

This completely illustrates my point about social security and the deficit:
[youtube]gGgjU-h_xQw[/youtube]

With everything RIGHT THERE ON YOUTUBE how can SO MANY PEOPLE still be in the dark? I remember thinking, when I was learning as a child about all of this... what's wrong with everyone, why don't they know? Now I REALLY have to wonder. It's RIGHT THERE!!

 

[THE]

WOW! This video is amazingly simple and informational, so far...
[youtube]O_TjBNjc9Bo[/youtube]
It's your fault I found this, Mr. Wulf... Thank you!!
This will be great to show to idiots I know and want to educate a little!!



And don't forget the ultimate solution I keep talking about..
We could stop dumping money into a giant hole..
[youtube]JnX-D4kkPOQ[/youtube]
Next time you have network television playing.. Look for the similarities.
People really ARE like this.
OH MY GOD YOU WANT TO STOP DUMPING MONEY INTO THE MONEY HOLE??? YOU HATE THE CHILDREN!!! YOU T%RRORIST!!

 

[ShadowWulf]

I find your arguments...interesting. You sem to be after a totally new form of government, not yet realized or finished in thought, but that seems to be where you're headed.

Unfortunately, the american tax laws are laws. Are they extortion? Yes, but they're also laws, signed into practice and enforced. I agree partially with you, but Nothing you say can change that fact.

My entire premise is based around the fact that I find the capital accumulation system to be fundamentally flawed, and in such a way that it is nearly unrepairable. Now parts CAN be utilized anew but without the emphasis on uneven distribution compounding uneven distribution ad nauseum.

I am a fan of participatory economics and total democratic open freedom. Heres a VASTLY simplified video that gives some super basic ideas...though its animated weird its essentially accurate and gives a decent rundown in less than 10 minutes!

YouTube - Intro to Participatory Economics

I have more to add later, but im tired, its almost 2am and I have work shortly.

 

[THE]

I find your arguments...interesting. You sem to be after a totally new form of government, not yet realized or finished in thought, but that seems to be where you're headed.

Unfortunately, the american tax laws are laws. Are they extortion? Yes, but they're also laws, signed into practice and enforced. I agree partially with you, but Nothing you say can change that fact.

My entire premise is based around the fact that I find the capital accumulation system to be fundamentally flawed, and in such a way that it is nearly unrepairable. Now parts CAN be utilized anew but without the emphasis on uneven distribution compounding uneven distribution ad nauseum.

I am a fan of participatory economics and total democratic open freedom. Heres a VASTLY simplified video that gives some super basic ideas...though its animated weird its essentially accurate and gives a decent rundown in less than 10 minutes!

YouTube - Intro to Participatory Economics

I have more to add later, but im tired, its almost 2am and I have work shortly.

I meant to say it earlier, but I LOVE when intelligent people challenge what I say. I appreciate you very much. I think where you're lacking, in my mind, is that you've completely ignored my point. They can not show us a law saying we're required to pay their income tax. They've been asked publicly many times to do so and they cannot.

While I watch your video, here's one.
[youtube]GKePl2gW_3M[/youtube]
Alex Jones I think gets a little far fetched, some times..
But look, this guy was PART of the I*S.. He was three letter for a long time, he knows the ins and outs of this. He doesn't look like a bitter ex employee case, to me. Even if he was... no one has shown what he says to be untrue..

The type of government I want isn't from outer space. It's not just "interesting". It works. It's a government where the people decide what happens. Where the government isn't ten times the size it should be.

As an aside... that video I found and posted, the long 30 minute one ... it gets better and better as I have been watching it.. Go to 13:36 for a laugh. It's funny.

 

[THE]

JUST LOOK AT THIS

[youtube]pu0iSxAKxT0[/youtube]
Start at 0:40 if you're impatient

The worst part is that a government agent is speaking about a RIGHT the government has?!?! The only RIGHT they have is to SERVE US.

 

[clyde2801]

1. Entitlement mentality at all levels of our society.

2. Abolishing the draft and replacing it with the all volunteer military.

3. Government encroaching upon more and more aspects of our lives.

4. Multinational corporations trampling upon what's left over.

5. Lobbyists taking the place of dedicated, well informed citizens as participants in the political process.

We've gone from 'the greatest generation', where even the children of privilege sacrificed all for the common good, to bread and circuses. All in just a couple of generations. Hooray!

 

[firefox335]

Q: What will be the ultimate undoing of The United States?

A: Passive Americans


That is the root of all of our problems. The citizenry of this nation has the power to save or destroy it. It's up to us and it always has been. What those in power have counted on for decades if not centuries is the fact that most of us don't care. Bailing out the auto industry? Sorry, I'm too interested in what Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are up to. Trillions for health care? Sorry, I'd love to care about it, but I just got a fun new app for my iPhone.

Were are swiftly passing the point of no return. I wonder if we'll all take a page from Nero and fiddle while our republic burns.

 

[THE]

Holy god
Schiff even offered 50k if the guy could show him what requires us to pay
[youtube]s0yqy06ZEzE[/youtube]

I think he's in prison again
And as far as I know, he went again, and no one ever figured out WHAT he was convicted of.

 

[THE]

1. Entitlement mentality at all levels of our society.

2. Abolishing the draft and replacing it with the all volunteer military.

3. Government encroaching upon more and more aspects of our lives.

4. Multinational corporations trampling upon what's left over.

5. Lobbyists taking the place of dedicated, well informed citizens as participants in the political process.

We've gone from 'the greatest generation', where even the children of privilege sacrificed all for the common good, to bread and circuses. All in just a couple of generations. Hooray!

I wish that you were wrong

 

[THE]

I am a fan of participatory economics and total democratic open freedom. Heres a VASTLY simplified video that gives some super basic ideas...though its animated weird its essentially accurate and gives a decent rundown in less than 10 minutes!

YouTube - Intro to Participatory Economics

First of all.. I loved the "because I like Tulips" moment.. I live in a town full of "but I like tulips" people. I think the video was very condescending to the average person (and probably, rightfully so). But it's just not accurate projecting the average person on the wall as one who is walking around laughing off all productive thought and going on about "commies" and "pinkos" and the kremlin.

Renumeration according to effort and sacrifice is a scary idea. Not "run with your hands in the air screaming because it is different" scary... But scary. Because any time you have any person or group trying to decide who should have what.. it's a dangerous idea. We're talking about how much control the government should have and how much money they should steal.

This idea is not as relevant as it seems, I don't think.

I think the best point the video made was product supply and demand concerns (but I think they work themselves out in capitalism) and dealing with "externalities"... Transactions resulting in a loss to society or to even one other person or party should include that cost.

I know some people will see this and see the $15 gallon of gas and be alarmed.. but I wasn't. If this system could truly WORK, the average wage would probably be equal to a many thousands of dollars per month for someone who worked 8 or more hours per day.

As far as delegating lower "rated" tasks to everyone.. You simply can't do that. People can do what they're trained to do. What they know how to do. Do you have any idea of what it costs to train someone, these days? You can't just have idiots jumping around from executive work to garbage collection one day to the next. You just can't.

I think this is a much better idea for use inside of organizations or companies.. Not a whole country. Is it in practice anywhere in a considerable size of country? How long has it been around?

It's at the very LEAST an interesting idea.

In the example of having whatever he wants on his desk, and the loud stereo being a problem because it affects other workers.... That is how this whole country should work RIGHT NOW. It USE TO.

Like this clown next door with the barking screaming howling dog.. Remember, the one who has a "right to own a dog" and so thinks it's okay to take my peaceful enjoyment of this property.

People in the end will do what the government won't. The government forces me to trust them with defending my rights. When they won't, I have to. The government won't right the nights of rest I've lost. I know I will, when the time is right. Believe me, I will.

 

[THE]

I can't allow myself to be consumed with my concern for the country... It has ended up consuming days, months and years of my life, before... And being concerned never was productive. I've had to learn to live with the fact that nothing is going to change. That has served me well. So I am going to back out of this soon.

 

[Pav]

Try to get a scholarship sometime.. I had to pay thousands to put a woman I loved through school while she was making mostly A's and some B's the minorities were being handed grants with D to F averages.

I've lost my right to own land before. Was strongarmed out of it.
I've lost my right to drive a car, before. For NON MOVING violations.

Those two things meant the world to me at the time.
They don't treat minorities that way around here.
They're afraid to.

Scholarships are not rights. They're given out selectively based on certain criteria. Otherwise everyone would get one. I doubt scholarships are being given to anyone with a D or F average. But if you can show me one I'll change my mind on that.

And how did you lose your right to own land or drive a car based on being white? I've been in traffic court a few times and I'm the minority there. Police have no problem pulling over minorities here. Didn't have a problem buying a house anywhere I wanted either. In fact the majority of homeowners here in the Detroit metro are white.

Sorry. but a lot of what you're saying sounds like the typical minority scapegoating argument. Things don't go right in your life, so blame the minority.

Sorry, but it's true. Good honest capitalism punishes the good hell out of lazy minded people. And some people want it that way. They want to be down their whole lives and have something to whine about. In capitalism, they get that. The people who want success, they get success.

*shrug*

This is flawed thinking as well. What happens when there are more unemployed than there are jobs (like right now)? Not everyone can be Bill Gates.

I think it's insulting to say that anyone who is unemployed is lazy. I know lots of people who lost their jobs, had a hard time in spite of busting their asses. A couple were some of the hardest workers I've known.

They can not show us a law saying we're required to pay their income tax. They've been asked publicly many times to do so and they cannot.

This should explain it. It's called the IRS Internal Revenue Code (Title 26).

Income Tax Page

Maybe it's time to stop watching the Alex Jones youtubes. He lacks credibility imo.

 

[ShadowWulf]

1. Entitlement mentality at all levels of our society.

2. Abolishing the draft and replacing it with the all volunteer military.

3. Government encroaching upon more and more aspects of our lives.

4. Multinational corporations trampling upon what's left over.

5. Lobbyists taking the place of dedicated, well informed citizens as participants in the political process.

We've gone from 'the greatest generation', where even the children of privilege sacrificed all for the common good, to bread and circuses. All in just a couple of generations. Hooray!

1. True, even the most wealthy feel entitled.

2. This smacks of Dictatorship, and has never set well with the idea of forcing free people to be free where by they are NOT free. People who truely want freedom will fight for it, if not they deserve to loose it. Making them do it in coercion.

3. This can be a razors line, to much is stifling and dangerous, to little in the way of laws is anarchy, food poisionings (worse then they are anyways) and even more rampant industrial abuses.

4. This is what Capitalism IS, the very definition of those with capital using their capital for expansion and gain. It stands as one of the pillars of the system built around capital gain through efficiency. Does it need an "At all costs" mentality? Yes, again it does in order to remain efficient and profitable.

5. Lobbying laws are a joke and were written by the people who want to lobby the most.

THE: Parecon is not perfect, ill be the first to admit it, but there is ALOT more to it than the short video presents however getting into a full blown discussion on it is more text-book oriented than discussion forum oriented. Nobody wants to read a shortened 300 page synopsis on it, if they do they can easily discover it themselves. I will say however it is anon centralized form of economics and government that avoids the shortfalls of socialism through lack of overt control on a local level, instead leaving the control up to those who live there. Overly centralized government of any kind is dangerous no matter what name it flys under.

People can be trained to other tasks, within their ability also. Is your doctor going to work in a coal mine? No, thats ridiculous. Might he run the infirmary in one though? Sure, get him out of that posh Beverly hills clinic every once and awhile. What the system lacks in efficiency it makes up for in empowerment via the employed, encouraging people (Who are being remunerated though their work) to work even more at being successful, and those who see monetary gain as their priority have to acomplish such through hard work that benefits those around them. Can they still get rich? Yep, but it wont be by playing margins and corporate buyouts, it will be working and aiding the economy.

Theres more to answer, but im off to work.

 

[FredK]

One word, GREED.

More specifically, corporate greed. The United States can not survive as long as we keep sending jobs to other countries. This global economy is bad for the average American. It's good for big business, bad for the average guy. Yeah, we may get goods cheaper, but at what expense. I say F the rest of the world and lets get back to a local economy. First thing this would do is cut our spending on oil dramatically. I want to buy my fruit from the farm down the road, not mexico.

Then we have political greed. Lobbying should be illegal. How do they allow companies and groups to give money to influence politicans, that just has corruption written all over it. Look at the BS with ecigs. At what point in history did the FDA start working for big business instead of the American people. Freakin greed!

 

[vapordraggin101]

One word, GREED.

More specifically, corporate greed. The United States can not survive as long as we keep sending jobs to other countries. This global economy is bad for the average American. It's good for big business, bad for the average guy. Yeah, we may get goods cheaper, but at what expense. I say F the rest of the world and lets get back to a local economy. First thing this would do is cut our spending on oil dramatically. I want to buy my fruit from the farm down the road, not mexico.

Then we have political greed. Lobbying should be illegal. How do they allow companies and groups to give money to influence politicans, that just has corruption written all over it. Look at the BS with ecigs. At what point in history did the FDA start working for big business instead of the American people. Freakin greed!

Thanks FredK, I think you summed it up simple and to the point.......period. End of Story.

 

[ImYourSalt]

greed.
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