Why Buy American?

[Done Deal DR]

Although the "slave labor" happens, It´s not always like that.

I´m mexican and work at an industrial plant and we do quality inspection and handle scrap material for a mexican worldwide company called Nemak. Nemak manufactures around 80% of the motor blocks and cylinder heads in the world and they have 14 plants around the world, 3 of them in the US. Well, they wanted us to provide the service we provide here in their Alabama plant; I went and investigated all related costs, insurance, minimum wages, uniform costs, etc. And we would have to pay 18 USD/hour, to provide exactly the same service we provide here, and here in Mexico we pay around 4USD/hour. And we are the company that gives the highest wages around.

The difference comes down to living costs, a coke cost 0.25, a kilo of avocados 2.9 USD, a lettuce costs 0.25 etc... If I go to work in the USA with the money I make here, I would be considered dirt poor, while here I´m middle class.

Yes, exactly. But the problem is that if we continue to outsource jobs overseas for Corps to save that money that there will be less and less jobs here, which then drives wages down because there is more people willing to do the same job for less money. It costs more money to do things here not only because of taxes and business running costs, insurance, etc, but because people aren't willing to work for $4/hour here because as you said they couldn't afford anything, but if we keep this up home prices will be in the bucket and they will be paying us $4 an hour.

I personally don't want that, I'll buy American when I can and I'll be able to say I did what I could, on top of taxes, etc.

 

[Cowboy Cru]

What is buying americain these days, even if something is made here, the raw materials probably were not.
Also if you eat chocolate, or drink coffee, those come from south America.

I couldn't had said it better! Hey, you are in the state that makes the best juice! TVR!!!

 

[Cowboy Cru]

I do not however agree on the OP's take on quality, I don't think there is much to back that up. Sure there are bad products everywhere, but in general I think American made products offer up much better engineering and quality. I'm sure I could name hundreds of items ranging from cars and car parts to motorcycles to home goods to random personal items like clothing, etc where this is the case but I'd rather hear from the OP on where you think the lack of quality is?

Here's my take. You don't Have to have an american mod to get a good vape. Matter of fact, some fellow vapers of mine prefer my VMAX over their Provari's. And have even made the switch and only paying half price what they had for their PV's. Many people will say that they get as good of a vape off an ego, LT, etc. etc. as they do a Darwin. A lot of that comes down to your volts and so on, but if you are not a HV type person, most will say the end result is close enough for the money. I love my Empire shields because the way they "look." But my imported shields actually give me better performance and fit at half the price, personally. I also have a few friends that have their Darwin's and Provari's away right now being repaired. I'm not saying that there isn't more time taken on the fit and finish of american mods sometimes, but I really don't think you have to pay twice as much if you don't care about that. I think Ferrari's are sweet looking, but even if I were a billionaire I would not spend that on a car to get me from point A to B. Chances are the electronics inside your US mods are the same as the Chinese ones. They just "look" better. Another example, I do have a Kick, but I didn't need to drop it in to a Silver Bullet shell. My Bolt has housed it and fired it without fail for a very long time. So, my answer is the lack of quality in performance compared to price is just that. What are you paying for if they all perform the same? "Looks?"

 

[Cowboy Cru]

Although the "slave labor" happens, It´s not always like that.

I´m mexican and work at an industrial plant and we do quality inspection and handle scrap material for a mexican worldwide company called Nemak. Nemak manufactures around 80% of the motor blocks and cylinder heads in the world and they have 14 plants around the world, 3 of them in the US. Well, they wanted us to provide the service we provide here in their Alabama plant; I went and investigated all related costs, insurance, minimum wages, uniform costs, etc. And we would have to pay 18 USD/hour, to provide exactly the same service we provide here, and here in Mexico we pay around 4USD/hour. And we are the company that gives the highest wages around.

The difference comes down to living costs, a coke cost 0.25, a kilo of avocados 2.9 USD, a lettuce costs 0.25 etc... If I go to work in the USA with the money I make here, I would be considered dirt poor, while here I´m middle class.

The problem is we are so inflated, and we owe so much damn money to everybody else! Also, everybody is sue happy as one poster mentioned earlier. And unfortunately, all of this just feeds the good ol' american attitude of "They'll have to pay me more if they want me to do that!" Then they complain when they are out of a job and replaced by a Mexican! Lol.

 

[Motoman101]

I believe the American are better. Just my opinion.

 

[Butters78]

American mods are the best honestly.. OP, can you site an instance where a Chinese PV is overall better than its American counterpart?

 

[ByeByeCoffinNails]

Great Britain was the cradle of capitalism and America raised it through puberty. Like it or not, China is expressing the purist capitalism in the world.

China employs children, China works them long hours and China until recently had no Unions.

This is capitalism as it was originally envisaged in the nineteenth century in the cotton mills of Manchester, the steel mills of Sheffield. No unions, no safety standards, no standard of living for workers, child labour, six day weeks, twelve hour shifts.

Where are the American unions? I hear they have been largely broken. What about American working hours? Did Parnell fight for the forty hour week for nothing? Appears so.

To say American capitalism is somehow 'better' is a bit pot-kettle-black if you ask me. American capitalism leaves the poor to die in the streets and those without health insurance to die untreated in the hospital. Explain to me how this is 'better' than China.

Kiwis know about the great US- led steamroller. It's called "free trade". Allow "free trade" into your country and it's 'bye-bye' to local manufacturing. We have the equivalent of Wal Mart (The Warehouse) which sells junk and employs young people desperate for work. But before that, was MacDonalds, Burger King where even University grads work because there is no work anywhere else. "Free Trade" sucked all the jobs offshore you see.

But better than that, taxes rose- to pay Government debt (I hear the US Government has a 'little' debt problem). Who is the debt owed to? China. Pacific tension (China again) means the US comes asking for our Government to enter the TPPA (Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement). To enter the TPPA, our country and others would submit to US demands on defence, foreign policy and "free trade". Basically, it is an open request to suck what is left of our wealth into the US and allow US troops and ships to frequent our soil while overpriced US goods go on our shelves. In return, a small amount of our goods will appear on US shelves priced to not overwhelm the produce of US Farmers.

It also means our legislation will be pulled into line to meet American commercial demands, not unlike the law change to suppress the NZ/Australian actors union in order to 'allow' the filming of 'The Hobbit'. For this reason alone, you should not go to this movie. But wait, more law changes are coming here- to allow oil drilling off our pristine coastline and mining in our National Parks. All to feed American commercial interests.

Sorry, but buying American made is the last thing on my mind. For the record, I also do not buy from US companies that give a percentage to "our brave boys". Actually, some of the aforementioned 'boys' were in my town for 'military exercises' a few weeks ago. Not a cheering sight.

 

[dragonbone]

If you have never visited a Chinese manufacturing/shipping hub like Shenzhen or Chengdu, then it isn't so easy to understand. 99.999% of the Chinese vaping items you've purchased were made by 12-14 year old Chinese girls earning a few cents an hour or maybe a few dollars a week working 14-18 hour shifts and housed in factory owned dormitories - and paying for their meals, housing, and personal items directly out of their company pay leaving them nearly zero, and sometimes less than zero
disposable income. They might be able to leave if they want to, but many are not much better off than slaves. Some people have a serious moral issue with this.

Really? 12-14 year old girl slaves?

Anyway, with regards to the working conditions and dormitories, canteens etc..... That is usual in China and many other Asian countries.

Most factory workers are from country villages that are DAYS away etc. (China is a HUGE country) and accommodation provided by the company is the norm and part of the package. These factory jobs in all industries, are highly coveted and sought after, (and is usually only got by a favor of a good word from a friend) and the few measly $ you speak of goes a LONG way in China.

Those worker's wages support whole peasant families working the arid land out in the country. The factory workers have a chance of a new life, a safe roof over their head, regular food in their stomachs and peace of mind that their parents and siblings have coal or oil to burn in the frigid winters and food to keep the gnawing wolf from their tummies and not slowly starving to death.

Yes, not pretty, but that is the way it is. Now... Do you still want to take away their job because of YOUR idea of what is slavery?

 

[mwa102464]

Really? 12-14 year old girl slaves?

Anyway, with regards to the working conditions and dormitories, canteens etc..... That is usual in China and many other Asian countries.

Most factory workers are from country villages that are DAYS away etc. (China is a HUGE country) and accommodation provided by the company is the norm and part of the package. These factory jobs in all industries, are highly coveted and sought after, (and is usually only got by a favor of a good word from a friend) and the few measly $ you speak of goes a LONG way in China.

Those worker's wages support whole peasant families working the arid land out in the country. The factory workers have a chance of a new life, a safe roof over their head, regular food in their stomachs and peace of mind that their parents and siblings have coal or oil to burn in the frigid winters and food to keep the gnawing wolf from their tummies and not slowly starving to death.

Yes, not pretty, but that is the way it is. Now... Do you still want to take away their job because of YOUR idea of what is slavery?

Absofreakinglutley I do, I want those jobs to come back to the USA, where those jobs pay more, and the products are of a higher quality, I'm so sick of no manufacturing or very little done in the USA anymore, this makes the economy churn in more ways then one, and is needed, I have nothing against the Chinese or any other countries but I care more about the country I live in then any other, and I want to see the American people working and paying there mortgage's and providing for there families instead of China taking this money, all day long.!!! Everyone knew once manufacturing left the USA it was going to hurt us, now we desperately want and NEED it Back, and I believe it will come back too. it's a vicious cycle but the day its starts to change and come back will be one awesome day in my eyes, and we use to make the finest quality products in the world, and we will again some day too.

 

[dragonbone]

Absofreakinglutley I do, I want those jobs to come back to the USA, where those jobs pay more, and the products are of a higher quality, I'm so sick of no manufacturing or very little done in the USA anymore, this makes the economy churn in more ways then one, and is needed, I have nothing against the Chinese or any other countries but I care more about the country I live in then any other, and I want to see the American people working and paying there mortgage's and providing for there families instead of China taking this money, all day long.!!! Everyone knew once manufacturing left the USA it was going to hurt us, now we desperately want and NEED it Back, and I believe it will come back too. it's a vicious cycle but the day its starts to change and come back will be one awesome day in my eyes, and we use to make the finest quality products in the world, and we will again some day too.

Lol... Yes, but that isn't going to happen, is it? Let's take your average 'factory worker'...,
Your average American is not 'proud' of their company, only of themselves. They are not grateful for their job or to their company. They want to give way less - for - FAR, FAR more money and perks then their Asian counterparts. They expect a king's ransom in wages for unskilled labour. Work is just a necessary means to an end, whereas in Asian countries, it is so much more. Americans want out the door at 5 sharp, and if not, they want overtime and double time etc. They demand and expect X amounts of holiday, off days, sick days, tea breaks and meal breaks, medical aid, paid maternity leave, compassionate leave, unemployment etc. and other perks. If things don't go their way, they will leave or they will sue, or they will strike and bankrupt their company or industry... But hey, as long as they get what's coming to them, who cares?

They are far fatter, sicker, angrier, lazier, with more personal issues and less productive hours etc. than their Asian factory worker counterparts.

America is a consumer society now, not a manufacturing or industrial society?

Pretending to boycot ecigs (by buying Chinese products from a local vendor) is kind of silly, especially since practically every single product consumed in and around the American home (and Americans like lots of products) are imported in whole, in part or in one way or another Lol...

P.S. I am in no way bashing anyone. Just stating the facts. Times have changed....

 

[Done Deal DR]

So in summary, might as well just give up on American manufacturing and jobs because it's a lost cause?

 

[dragonbone]

So in summary, might as well just give up on American manufacturing and jobs because it's a lost cause?

Lol... I wouldn't even presume to answer that, except to say... If America's finest economists and brightest minds, cannot find a solution.... I sure don't know one. I was just stating the facts.

 

[six]

Yes, not pretty, but that is the way it is. Now... Do you still want to take away their job because of YOUR idea of what is slavery?

It sort of comes down to little picture vs big picture. Little picture: If for whatever reason, my decision to purchase items made in the USA costs a Chinese girl her job, then it may indeed be a problem for that girl... Big picture: Not supporting the system that allows that girl to be exploited could eventually lead to changes in that system so the next generation of those girls won't be exploited.

I've spent quite a lot of time in Chengdu. Though I've seen much worse conditions in other places, I can't even come close to agreeing with your assessment.

All of that said: I don't necessarily avoid Chinese products. I doubt it's even possible to do so. I do deliberately purchase American made products when I have a choice. I also deliberately purchase European and Canadian goods ahead of Chinese products when similar items exist in the marketplace. But, when I have no choice, it isn't like I fret about it.

 

[dragonbone]

It sort of comes down to little picture vs big picture. Little picture: If for whatever reason, my decision to purchase items made in the USA costs a Chinese girl her job, then it may indeed be a problem for that girl... Big picture: Not supporting the system that allows that girl to be exploited could eventually lead to changes in that system so the next generation of those girls won't be exploited.

What happens to America's kids from the poor 1 horse dusty towns, the kids from broken homes and the kids that are abused, beaten or neglected. How about the dirt poor who run away seeking a better life, or the unemployed and unskilled or a social misfit for whatever reason? Why, a lot of them end up selling themselves for a fix on the streets in the big bad cities... Maybe a factory job with a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs, wouldn't seem half as bad.

 

[six]

What happens to America's kids from the poor 1 horse dusty towns, the kids from broken homes and the kids that are abused, beaten or neglected. How about the dirt poor who run away seeking a better life, or the unemployed and unskilled or a social misfit for whatever reason? Why, a lot of them end up selling themselves for a fix on the streets in the big bad cities... Maybe a factory job with a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs, wouldn't seem half as bad.

Are you trying to say that there are no beaten, abused, neglected etc kids in China? Are you also trying to say there is no drug problem in China?... No poor towns? ... No prostitution?... No runaways? And this is all due to the availability of jobs requiring long hours while paying next to nothing to laborers who have not quite yet or just barely reached puberty?

I think you need to visit China. Those social issues you've described do exist in China... and Japan... and Korea... and Thailand.. Asians are not exempt from those sorts of things. In fact, those sorts of issues exist in every single country I've ever been in... and I'd give odds on any wager regarding the idea that those sorts of issues exist to similar degrees in every country our planet hosts. What America has is a method of amplification. We have an unrestricted liberal media that can show you 15 seconds to 8 minutes of video of those effected by such social issues at a time and do so several times a day. Asian countries with modern media capabilities are often hindered by governments and are unable to publicize those social issues without facing severe penalties. --- Just another cog in the wheel of that system that allows so many very young girls to be exploited the way they are.

 

[ByeByeCoffinNails]

It sort of comes down to little picture vs big picture. Little picture: If for whatever reason, my decision to purchase items made in the USA costs a Chinese girl her job, then it may indeed be a problem for that girl... Big picture: Not supporting the system that allows that girl to be exploited could eventually lead to changes in that system so the next generation of those girls won't be exploited.

It's not just the girl in China though- it's the kids in other countries who are being sucked dry. Some of these kids are third generation unemployed because there are no jobs. Mechanisation is taking jobs, outsourcing is taking jobs, longer working hours are taking jobs.

Ever wondered why so many people do 60 hour weeks when you could employ two people to do two thirty hour weeks? People talk about work/life balance but nothing gets done about it. Why? The cost of living is too high. Why is that? Because as long as there is a high demand for consumer goods, prices will rise.

But demand drives productivity, marketing creates demand... the cheaper you can produce, the more money you make, the more demand you create, the more money you make.

Got one TV? Get three! Got 8 TV channels? Get 8000! Only real men use product x, only pretty women use product y, you will succeed if you buy product z. These are all tricks to make you feel insecure and spend money on stuff you do not need.

By promoting things as 'US Made' when it really means 'US Assembled from Chinese-Made Parts' is marketing to drive up demand. Nothing works as a lever like patriotism-especially in the US where patriotism is taught in school.

It's a global market now. We are all "citizens of the world" thanks to "free trade". Pity though that America leads the world in opening up markets whilst simultaneously closing its trade borders to other countries. Kind of smacks of 'having your cake and eating it too'. A nice one-way valve to ensure American prosperity while other countries fail.

China however has very liberal trade rules. As long as it does not undermine the CCP in Beijing, goods (some not so good!) may come in and go out pretty freely. That is 'true' "free trade" believe it or not!

 

[dragonbone]

Are you trying to say that there are no beaten, abused, neglected etc kids in China? Are you also trying to say there is no drug problem in China?... No poor towns? ... No prostitution?... No runaways? And this is all due to the availability of jobs requiring long hours while paying next to nothing to laborers who have not quite yet or just barely reached puberty?

I think you need to visit China. Those social issues you've described do exist in China... and Japan... and Korea... and Thailand.. Asians are not exempt from those sorts of things. In fact, those sorts of issues exist in every single country I've ever been in... and I'd give odds on any wager regarding the idea that those sorts of issues exist to similar degrees in every country our planet hosts. What America has is a method of amplification. We have an unrestricted liberal media that can show you 15 seconds to 8 minutes of video of those effected by such social issues at a time and do so several times a day. Asian countries with modern media capabilities are often hindered by governments and are unable to publicize those social issues without facing severe penalties. --- Just another cog in the wheel of that system that allows so many very young girls to be exploited the way they are.

No, I am definitely not saying that. My best friend is living in Shanghai at the moment, she can't get YouTube, can't connect to Facebook etc. and can't even connect to Dropbox! China has a lot of problems, and I definitly don't want to live there!

Btw, look at my avatar and you will see that I live in Japan. I have been to China many times, also quite a few other poor Asian countries. In fact I have been to at least 20 countries, so I am not quite as ignorant as you may think. I get where you are coming from, however.... Americans who hate all things Chinese, hate it for patriotic reasons, not becuase of the mythical 14 year old girl working in a factory. I was just answering comments here.

But, if I had a daughter, and I had to choose the lesser of two evils that I described in my previous post... I know which one I would choose.

 

[mwa102464]

Just 1 manufacturing job creates 4 other jobs, we lost 6 million manufacturing jobs to China, Mexico, and elsewhere, do the math,, 6 million x 4 = 24M jobs lost here in the USA,and where going to TAKE THEM BACK !!!! As well as create millions of new ones too !!!

 

[mwa102464]

Lol... Yes, but that isn't going to happen, is it? Let's take your average 'factory worker'...,
Your average American is not 'proud' of their company, only of themselves. They are not grateful for their job or to their company. They want to give way less - for - FAR, FAR more money and perks then their Asian counterparts. They expect a king's ransom in wages for unskilled labour. Work is just a necessary means to an end, whereas in Asian countries, it is so much more. Americans want out the door at 5 sharp, and if not, they want overtime and double time etc. They demand and expect X amounts of holiday, off days, sick days, tea breaks and meal breaks, medical aid, paid maternity leave, compassionate leave, unemployment etc. and other perks. If things don't go their way, they will leave or they will sue, or they will strike and bankrupt their company or industry... But hey, as long as they get what's coming to them, who cares?

They are far fatter, sicker, angrier, lazier, with more personal issues and less productive hours etc. than their Asian factory worker counterparts.

America is a consumer society now, not a manufacturing or industrial society?

Pretending to boycot ecigs (by buying Chinese products from a local vendor) is kind of silly, especially since practically every single product consumed in and around the American home (and Americans like lots of products) are imported in whole, in part or in one way or another Lol...

P.S. I am in no way bashing anyone. Just stating the facts. Times have changed....

Sure sounds like you are though,,,,I highly disagree with you that Americans are not proud of there jobs and there companies, that's just an old tail,,,,,, I dont agree that every American is like that, some yes, but far from all, there are lazy Chinese people too, lazy people all over the world, that philosophy just doesn't add up. Look at Germany 25% of there work force is in manufacturing,,,, the USA MUST HAVE MANUFACTURING,,, its a fact,,,,, and I and millions of other will fight for it, we have the best technology in the world, combine that with manufacturing and you have the strongest nation in the world, which is what the USA is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Wages are going up in China manufacturing also, so they are going in another direction as well,,,,,,, Trust me manufacturing will come back to the USA,,, it may take years to re-develop,,, but private partnerships are happening and it is going to come back,,,, Boeing, and big companies, along with our Govt are going to be harder on China in the future,,, they will start taxing there products heavy and it will effect them, it is the only way change will take place, and it will be taking place. The USA chose to let all those Jobs go to other countries, just wait till they choose to take all those Jobs back Big moves will be happening and happening soon, change will be taking place.

 

[dragonbone]

Sure sounds like you are though,,,,I highly disagree with you that Americans are not proud of there jobs and there companies, that's just an old tail,,,,,, I dont agree that every American is like that, some yes, but far from all, there are lazy Chinese people too, lazy people all over the world, that philosophy just doesn't add up. Look at Germany 25% of there work force is in manufacturing,,,, the USA MUST HAVE MANUFACTURING,,, its a fact,,,,, and I and millions of other will fight for it, we have the best technology in the world, combine that with manufacturing and you have the strongest nation in the world, which is what the USA is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Wages are going up in China manufacturing also, so they are going in another direction as well,,,,,,, Trust me manufacturing will come back to the USA,,, it may take years to re-develop,,, but private partnerships are happening and it is going to come back,,,, Boeing, and big companies, along with our Govt are going to be harder on China in the future,,, they will start taxing there products heavy and it will effect them, it is the only way change will take place, and it will be taking place. The USA chose to let all those Jobs go to other countries, just wait till they choose to take all those Jobs back Big moves will be happening and happening soon, change will be taking place.

I have lived in the far east for 13 years, and without a doubt, attitude to one's job and life long loyalty to one's company are very different between Asian and Western. In Japan, a man is more married to his company than to his wife. They work late and on weekends if necessary without any overtime wages, take severe bonus and pay cuts if the company is having difficulties and usually stay with one company for their entire working careers. Through thick and thin.
They often get recruited/ head hunted, even before leaving university. This is now... It used to be like that in the west, but now money is king, and every man for himself. I am just noting the differences in work attitude, not making any personal judgements either way (obviously). I personally, change jobs when I don't like something or when my company can't pay me, or expects me to work every Sunday for 13 hours, or when I get a better offer or even just if I'm bored. I have worked for 6 different companies in just 13 years here.... I am not Chinese or Japanese, and I suppose I prefer to look after number one. But how can we ever compete???

I understand what you mean, but I don't see how the US can go back to being an industrial nation when almost everything can be imported at a fraction of the price.