What I actually said "Nicotine is a poison, but not at the level you are pretending."
Your conclusion "You are handing bottles of nicotine to children".
Why certain regulations and bans make perfect sense
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What I actually said "Nicotine is a poison, but not at the level you are pretending."
Your conclusion "You are handing bottles of nicotine to children".
I have to say that in my three years of vaping no one has ever complained to me about the vapor or it's smell. some of those people are avid antismoke. I even vape in their cars on drives that take several hours and they sit in my truck while I vape. Never a complaint.
As for the toxitiy of nicotine you may want to take a look at this;
Sleuthing Toxicologist Shows Nicotine Isn't As Deadly As We Think - Forbes
Or here;
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/480407-nicotine-may-not-toxic-weve-been-led-believe.html
As for the toxitiy of nicotine you may want to take a look at this;
Sleuthing Toxicologist Shows Nicotine Isn't As Deadly As We Think - Forbes
Or here;
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/480407-nicotine-may-not-toxic-weve-been-led-believe.html
[Q ldr;11602801]What I actually said "Nicotine is a poison, but not at the level you are pretending."
Your conclusion "You are handing bottles of nicotine to children".[/QUOTE]
My apologies. I thought you were the nicotine and caffeine is safe person.
You are correct about the different levels of nicotine being poisonous to children. A tiny amount may not kill directly. Although speculating levels I was infering wasn't fair. No I did not specify levels. I am not an expert in that field and will not pretend too. Saying nicotine is safe is just wrong. Face it, our liquids come from pure high nicotine. We trust our liquid suppliers that our liquids are the % they state. Good or bad, that is what we do.
I personally do not know the lethal dose to a child. I have read here and elsewhere it is pretty low and have experienced nicotine od from mixing, the feeling part. I am also willing to be properly educated on that fact.
Again I apologies.
Your conclusion "You are handing bottles of nicotine to children".[/QUOTE]
My apologies. I thought you were the nicotine and caffeine is safe person.
You are correct about the different levels of nicotine being poisonous to children. A tiny amount may not kill directly. Although speculating levels I was infering wasn't fair. No I did not specify levels. I am not an expert in that field and will not pretend too. Saying nicotine is safe is just wrong. Face it, our liquids come from pure high nicotine. We trust our liquid suppliers that our liquids are the % they state. Good or bad, that is what we do.
I personally do not know the lethal dose to a child. I have read here and elsewhere it is pretty low and have experienced nicotine od from mixing, the feeling part. I am also willing to be properly educated on that fact.
Again I apologies.
My wife doesn't like the vapor bloom. They don't mind the smell, except honey flavors that smell like urine. They are sorta like champagne, good going down bad coming up. My daughter's friend have said a few times my car smells good.
Each person is different.
And you can find no evidence that vaping related nicotine has ever killed a child. Which is exactly my point when you start screaming about dying children. Yes, there is a risk and yes, you should be careful with it. But you should be careful with rat poison, antifreeze, cleaning agents, and all sort of things that have *actually* done more harm to kids than bottles of vape juice.
i really wanted to read all 15 pages before i gave my opinion, but i didnt so excuse me if i repeat whats allready been said
the government makes huge amounts of money on the taxation of tobacco, bottom line is; anything that starts to take money from the government coffers is likely to face huge hurdles in order to stay "socially acceptable"
and lets face it, most traditional smokers are never going to give up tobacco. ive watched family members and friends literally die of emphysema and COPD with cigarettes in their hands until their last breath. the older generations are never quick to adopt new technology, nevermind accept that they've been sold a bill of goods regarding certain products. they'll never accept the relatively low danger small amounts of nicotine possess' and they'll remain closed minded to the fact that vaping is 'generally' harmless, especially to bystanders in public.
what it really comes down to is responsibility. take responsibility to do your own research instead of believing the negative stories the lamestream media is bound to hype
take responsibility in teaching your children about tobacco products/alcohol/drugs/vaping/sex, whatever. unfortunately most parents are either too stupid, too lazy, or both to sit down with their kids and have a meaningful conversation, and will forever rely on the trickle down, government drip feed of information to get their kids from birth to adulthood without choking to death on their own tongues
sure, the regulation and subsequent taxation of vaping products/ejuice, and other related accessories will make the government a ton of money
but first they'll have to admit they were less than forth coming with the truth regarding tobacco/nicotine and now vaping
and the day that happens is the day ill start smoking analogs again....so i suspect it will be never
but im a gen-xer, a child raised by cable tv and the advent of the internet and violent video games, and now im walking around in public covered in tattoos and an unkempt beard, trying to sway your kids with my evil addictive cyber cigarette...and only death and despair follows me
the government makes huge amounts of money on the taxation of tobacco, bottom line is; anything that starts to take money from the government coffers is likely to face huge hurdles in order to stay "socially acceptable"
and lets face it, most traditional smokers are never going to give up tobacco. ive watched family members and friends literally die of emphysema and COPD with cigarettes in their hands until their last breath. the older generations are never quick to adopt new technology, nevermind accept that they've been sold a bill of goods regarding certain products. they'll never accept the relatively low danger small amounts of nicotine possess' and they'll remain closed minded to the fact that vaping is 'generally' harmless, especially to bystanders in public.
what it really comes down to is responsibility. take responsibility to do your own research instead of believing the negative stories the lamestream media is bound to hype
take responsibility in teaching your children about tobacco products/alcohol/drugs/vaping/sex, whatever. unfortunately most parents are either too stupid, too lazy, or both to sit down with their kids and have a meaningful conversation, and will forever rely on the trickle down, government drip feed of information to get their kids from birth to adulthood without choking to death on their own tongues
sure, the regulation and subsequent taxation of vaping products/ejuice, and other related accessories will make the government a ton of money
but first they'll have to admit they were less than forth coming with the truth regarding tobacco/nicotine and now vaping
and the day that happens is the day ill start smoking analogs again....so i suspect it will be never
but im a gen-xer, a child raised by cable tv and the advent of the internet and violent video games, and now im walking around in public covered in tattoos and an unkempt beard, trying to sway your kids with my evil addictive cyber cigarette...and only death and despair follows me
Gee, there was another topic today where Senator from WI was idolized and given thumbs up for supporting e-cigs........even though he sponsors bills that say that children with single parents are probably more likely to be abused.
I swear, you just can't make this stuff up.
So right now, your rights as a vaper are in much better shape than your rights as a single parent.
(or as a widowed single parent)(or as an unmarried parent)(or as a gay parent). But hey, let's all run out and vote for THAT GUY!.
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Weren't the "Truth" campaigns all subsidized as part of the settlements against BT many years ago? That all ran dry which is why those ads no longer appear. BT only had to pay someone to make them for a few years. And they made them so over the top, people laughed at them more than took anything to heart.
Edd, I was using a phrase that already exists and it rhymed, not meant to offend. How about just "proud" then? I thought loud and proud sounded cute.........actually, I would be considered one of those, but you do't know me. It's just that I don't REQUIRE that other people have my vaping personality.
YOu missed the point of my post by focussing on that. I was merely trying to show there are different types of people who vape. It's no different from people who love to wear colors and people who love to wear understated stuff.
I vape wherever and whenver I want. I bring my vape into stores, show it to anyone who will look
but I know where I am and what I'm doing when I do it. Part of being *effective* is knowing your audience,.... and your surroundings. I've converted a lot of people who actually don't even seem like the type of people who would vape. I do not advocate people all have the same "vaping personality". Some people like very small vape gear. They are understated people. Others are more flamboyant. (I actually am with vaping, Ill have an ego flung around my neck, and a reo in my hand when I walk into a place. I went to skin cancer doctor today in full regalia
She knows I vape, she knows I don't care what she thinks, she knows I pay her to do what I pay her to do, and that's all.) I don't need to fight about it. However, I am NOT going to tell other people "how to be", how to vape, where to vape, when to vape, who to vote for, etc.
Everyone I know is intelligent and has good reading comprehension skills. Just point them to facts, new articles, studies and laws about vaping and then LET THEM DECIDE HOW THEY WANT TO HANDLE THEMSELVES.
(Just like Robino1 says, let parents be parents? Well, I believe in letting vapers be vapers.)
If you ask for freedom, then you must be inclined to give others theirs.
Many people don't need *directives* or *marching orders*. And not everyone needs or wants to join a mass movement. Some people need that sense of belonging, they want to be part of a group.......others do not.
The most fatal misstep that you can make though is to point fingers at other vapers and imply that they are "the cause" of stuff coming down around your ears. Just remember I said that. FATAL. FATAL to your cause.
DC2. I never saw those truth ads. I can only imagine though. If they are anything like the somewhat infamous Chick Tracts cartoons......those pamplets are all over the place where I live. )
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And again it just shows "everyone is an individual".
As I have recounted, I have been the lone smoker for 20 years in my group of friends. Everyone let me smoke in their cars w/windows down, an even in their homes if it was cold outside. (one cigarette is not going to ruin a home here and there.)but I did leave a bag of newly arrived vape mail in one of my gal pal's car the other day while eating out, and getting back into car the flavoring smell was ...........very strong. My friend was less than pleased. So I will not vape banana flavored stuff around her, as it does seem to offend her, and I love my friend.
Edd, I was using a phrase that already exists and it rhymed, not meant to offend. How about just "proud" then? I thought loud and proud sounded cute.........actually, I would be considered one of those, but you do't know me. It's just that I don't REQUIRE that other people have my vaping personality.
YOu missed the point of my post by focussing on that. I was merely trying to show there are different types of people who vape. It's no different from people who love to wear colors and people who love to wear understated stuff.
I vape wherever and whenver I want. I bring my vape into stores, show it to anyone who will look
I do not advocate people all have the same "vaping personality". Some people like very small vape gear. They are understated people. Others are more flamboyant. (I actually am with vaping, Ill have an ego flung around my neck, and a reo in my hand when I walk into a place. I went to skin cancer doctor today in full regalia
However, I am NOT going to tell other people "how to be", how to vape, where to vape, when to vape, who to vote for, etc.
Everyone I know is intelligent and has good reading comprehension skills. Just point them to facts, new articles, studies and laws about vaping and then LET THEM DECIDE HOW THEY WANT TO HANDLE THEMSELVES.
(Just like Robino1 says, let parents be parents? Well, I believe in letting vapers be vapers.)
If you ask for freedom, then you must be inclined to give others theirs.
Many people don't need *directives* or *marching orders*. And not everyone needs or wants to join a mass movement. Some people need that sense of belonging, they want to be part of a group.......others do not.
The most fatal misstep that you can make though is to point fingers at other vapers and imply that they are "the cause" of stuff coming down around your ears. Just remember I said that. FATAL. FATAL to your cause.
DC2. I never saw those truth ads. I can only imagine though. If they are anything like the somewhat infamous Chick Tracts cartoons......those pamplets are all over the place where I live. )
My original quote in full:
First of all, the post you partially quoted was in response to someone else, and was stated next to the other poster's full quote.
And secondly, Racehorse, I don't think it is fair for you to cherry-pick that portion of my post many pages later and address only that single part of the post. I really don't. I am very tired of the practice of portions of a quote being taken out of context. It happens here on ECF way too often. I mean, the entire quote was four lines. Was that too much for you to post??
I ask you to clarify, because I definitely don't appreciate your implications in that post.
Your post seems to imply the following:
1) I don't allow others freedom, or I attempt to curtail their freedoms.
2) I tell others how to vape, and, require them to have my vaping personality.
3) I "need" to be part of a mass movement.
4) I give others marching orders, or I take orders on how I march.
5) I am accusing others of being the cause of trouble. You emphasized it with FATAL (all caps).
If you are not saying those things I list above, I ask that you simply clarify this is the case.
If you are saying those things, I challenge you to back up those assertion(s).
EDIT: Frankly, your post seems to be a nearly random response when viewed against my whole post and when the context of it being a response to another poster is considered. It is only when viewed against your selection of it you chose that you are (apparently) able to paint me as a controlling, aggressive, FATALLY flawed, finger-pointing militant. I sincerely hope you will clarify your meaning and I have misunderstood you, because I cannot help but feel like the omission of the whole post was intentional, since it is the only way to write the things you did in a way that could be justified as a response. I re-read it again, hoping I would see something that would make me feel like my original part of this post on this was an overreaction and I would amend it.
That post of yours actually looks worse to me when I re-examine it. I am genuinely baffled as to why my post elicited this response from you.
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In my reading of your posts, it does appear like you are passively-aggressively engaging in this fatal flaw regarding the loud and proud bunch. Whereas, I take this comment that I quoted to be words of warning to the vapers who on forums keep claiming, something along lines of, 'you loud and proud vapers who vape everywhere are ruining it (public vaping) for the rest of us.'
I advocate for 'vape everywhere' on a vaping forum. If I were on another forum, say ANTZ central or American Lung Association, I wouldn't necessarily start with vape everywhere rhetoric. I'd be more interested in challenging their opinions and studies with current studies and scientific data. I'm thinking vapers already get the idea of 'relative harmlessness' given the abundance of anecdotal evidence at our disposal.
The vape everywhere position is, I honestly believe, the place to start for political discussions, going forward. I fully realize that some vapers, likely the majority, are not actually going to literally vape everywhere. Yet, I do think there shouldn't be anywhere that is inherently off limits, especially from perspective of people who are allegedly pro vaping.
Instead, here on a vaping forum, we have ongoing, and perhaps endless, debate with fellow vapers who appear to come from position of 'vape nowhere in public' and if you disobey this, just realize 'you are ruining it for all other vapers.'
First of all I did not scream about dying children. I posted an opinion, which I have read from threads here about it. I even posted a link that has not been substantiated but questioned by Dr. K. Could it have been, yes. Could it not have been, yes. But to dismiss is just plain silly. I was talking about nicotine. Not vaping liquid, which happens to contain nicotine. So make sure facts are straight.
I am sorry my opinion bunched up your thong. Maybe you should switch to briefs.
How longs has rat poison be around? How long has e liquid been around?
Edited to add your link.
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/fa...toddler-dies-from-nicotine-poisoning-456.html
More on it...
http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/ashtray-blog/2009/03/e-juice-how-long-till-it-kills-someone.html
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/ecigarette.htm
From a proponent of vaping in the above link.
"Lethal dose for a child is 10mg nicotine."
You ask one for you got it. Go ahead now is time for you to dismiss it.
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I agree and disagree there. I hunted a while for a tobacco flavor that would match my camel light taste. I eventually got an epiphany moment with a strawberry shortcake or strawberry vanilla flavor. It was at that point that I realized that it didn't have to taste like my cigarette for this to work for me. Actually I'm not sure if I'll buy any more tobacco flavors. At this point I'm only using them with 1/3 or 1/4 mixture of vanilla, caramel, and coffee flavors. I just use one of those 10ml needle tip bottles. I don't actually DIY I just mix pre-bought juice.
I'm not sure if I would have stuck with it if I only had tobacco flavors.
I have never liked tobacco eliquids. Never!
If my only choices were tobacco and menthol I would still be vaping the crappy SF menthol cigalike kit I got at the convenience store for 17 bucks. Sometimes not getting much vapor is a good thing.
I am however fairly sure I would still be smoking some as well.
Nah it really boils down to government has to protect every idiot rather than letting Darwinism take it's course. Remember when Mc Donald's got sued and lost and was forced to put a label on there coffee stating that it was hot and could burn you.
Just take a look at the Jack ... movies and some youtube videos of what kids are doing these days. If kids are going to snowboard off a two story house into an ice covered pool; I don't think we have much hope of saving them anyway.
About the most dangerous thing I did back in my day was climb a tree (which I'm not sure parents even allow these days...or if they do they make them where a helmet, elbow, and knee pads) and play with fireworks. I'm not sure which was more dangerous to be honest with you
.I can also remember using a saw around 7 or 8. I bet you'd get locked up for child endangerment now days for letting a 7-8 use a saw.
Sorry for the rant...it just spewed out.
You have a good point and I agree with you. At this time I am not in favor of any bans.
Until proven otherwise my basic position is;
Vaping kills germs not people!!!
I find it odd that the government always uses the "protect the children" argument but when it comes down to it that really is BS.
If there was any real interest in protecting children then they would not continually give children back to abusive drug addicted parents time and time again. (Giving them 100 chances to screw up their children's lives)
They would not let child molesters out of prison EVER. I could give many more examples. Bottom line the government only uses the argument that ~whatever law~ is to protect children when it suits their needs not because it really is to protect children.
If there was any real interest in protecting children then they would not continually give children back to abusive drug addicted parents time and time again. (Giving them 100 chances to screw up their children's lives)
They would not let child molesters out of prison EVER. I could give many more examples. Bottom line the government only uses the argument that ~whatever law~ is to protect children when it suits their needs not because it really is to protect children.
I'm not sure any of this is saying what I feel you want it to say.
If your point is that unmixed liquid nicotine can be lethal to a young child (5 or under) then it is plausibly saying what you want it to say.
Likewise, just remember that caffeine is a toxic poison, and feel free to google "child dies from caffeine" if there is doubts about this. This does counter what you say is your 'whole point' in post #77 of this thread.
In post #120 you state that you have no fear of (your) kids with coffee (aka diluted caffeine) but rest of points on this thread are about fear mongering when it comes to nicotine, which I can't tell from your posts, if it is diluted form (the kind that equals ejuice) or the (nearly) pure form kind. I'm thinking every vaper that's been around in these discussions for more than a month, realizes it is a toxic chemical that you wouldn't want any fellow human to be around, unless they were experienced in doing so and/or taking lots of precautions.
I'm a vaper that currently has no desire to be handling the nearly pure form of nicotine, but also a drinker of beverages that have caffeine, while I currently have no desire to handle nearly pure forms of caffeine. IMO, if you go in that direction, of handling the pure forms, you are taking a substantially larger risk than the vast majority of people who will be handling the diluted versions.
And I'm currently cautious enough, perhaps paranoid is a better word, where I would freak out a bit if I had the diluted form of nicotine spilled on me. Which has happened with me, but really not that much spilled, and was about a year ago, with nothing noticeable occurring to me. I think if public was 'educated' about toxicity of caffeine (in its pure form), then there would possibly be far more people freaking out in society if they spilled coffee or soda on themselves. Instead, these diluted drinks are treated as rather trivial should you get say a whole glass of it spilled on your person.
Now, take it to level of what this thread/forum is about which is vaping juice, and I'm thinking if we are calling humans 14 to 18 "kids" - I'm feeling very confident that if they vaped this stuff, and this stuff is 20mg stuff or less, they would not die, nor even be harmed by it unless they suddenly became significant abusers that would make some of the die hards here feel like they are lightweights.
If you want to pick apart my threads please go back to the first one I posted.
Did the child die from caffeine or alcohol? I don't let my kids consume alcohol unless it is a special occasion and my wife and I are present. We have asked our kids if they wish to try.. they have both always declined.
Considering this is the first part of your thread with a disingenuous title.. "Actually they (bans) don't make sense, and I'm strongly opposed to them, but would like to see what others think about this logic."
So either you want others opinions or not... or do you only want those that agree with you.
Again if you wouldn't pick apart threads and start from the beginning was in response to the thread of the dude stating something to the fact caffeine is safe and he believes nicotine is as safe as caffeine.
I did not specifiy whether it was .00000000005% diluted or 99.99999999999999% pure. Thanks for being nitpicky. Next time I will make sure I type in 90.87645890213465768798946359450546456% pure.
"'m thinking every vaper that's been around in these discussions for more than a month" Obviously you didn't read all the threads in your own thread which sparked my post about nicotine = to the safety of caffeine. Which is where all this is coming from.
How much caffeine does a strong cup of coffee have? You google it. Let's say 100mg. Is that toxic? Is 100mg of nicotine in a coffee cup toxic? Again I have posted this in other posts on this thread about the toxicity of caffeine vs nicotine.
I personally agree with your last sentence. If an 18 year old wants to smoke, vape or drink (whatever), that is their choice. When a person can fight for their country if they so wish, they should be allowed all those freedoms that country enjoys.
I am .... with my liquids and my kids in the house. I am naive enough to think my kids could get into them if they wanted? no. I take every safety precaution I can that the kids, wife and pets can't. I buy 24mg bulk and cut it to 6 to 12mg. Then buy test batches of 12mg from random suppliers.
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