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Why don't more flavor companies use terpenes?

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by CublalaLand, Jul 12, 2019.

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  1. CublalaLand

    CublalaLand Moved On

    Jun 26, 2019
    I received an order from Nic River today, and got right to work creating my first ejuices using flavor combinations. I made three 30 ml sample batches. They turned out really great, like, better than any store bought juice I've tried.

    'Blueberry Cheesecake'
    4% (TFA) Blueberry Wild
    3% (TFA) Blueberry Extra
    2% (TFA) Cheescake
    1% (TFA) Graham Crust

    'Cherry Coke'
    6% (TFA) Cola
    1.5% (TFA) Raspberry
    .5% (TFA) Key Lime

    'Juicy Fruit'
    7% (TFA) Bubblegum Fruity
    1% (TFA) Apple

    I haven't vaped them yet, still steeping, but I can tell from the smell they're spot on. I'm going to be making 500ml batches of these flavors, I'm nearly positive. Kind of a little bit proud of myself. Making ejuice is easy and fun for me, whereas finding out why a tank is shorting can take a couple hours sometimes.

    Anyways, onto the crux of the thread. The reason why I specifically chose The Flavor Apprentice over other brands was because they use terpenes in their concentrates and list them in the ingredients. I'd even attribute much of my success making ejuice recipes for the first time because I picked out flavors that contained terpenes. Each of those three recipes has at least one flavor that includes them.

    Technically, I think terpenes are categorized as artificial flavoring because they are not derived from the same ingredient that it's taste is emulating. I can imagine there exists a few reasons as to why flavor molecules created with real terpenes are superior, but it's more something I did out of curiosity. I was just wondering why more companies don't use them and advertise that they use them? It's a difficult subject to find much relevant information on because of it's association with the grey market. Are companies using them and not bother to advertise the fact because it's considered 'trade secrets'?
     
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  2. JCinFLA

    JCinFLA Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 21, 2015
    I can't answer your question, but I know that another thread that was about terpenes was closed by a Mod not long ago, for being inappropriate for discussion on ECF. Just a heads up.

    I'm somewhat confused about these comments though, that you posted:

    I hope you do like them, because making one's first really good DIY eliquid is a confidence booster for sure. :thumbs:

    Most of us still just make sample batches in 5-15mL size though...in case we really don't like them. There are less ingredients wasted then.
     
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  3. bombastinator

    bombastinator Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2010
    MN USA
    Terpene - Wikipedia

    Most flavorings are turpenes or turpenoids. The others generally have them too they just don’t list them.
     
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  4. billthetroll

    billthetroll Super Member ECF Veteran

    I don't know why they'd close this thread
    Many terpenes are derived commercially from conifer resins, such as those made by this pine.
    Terpenes (/ˈtɜːrpiːn/) are a large and diverse class of organic compounds, produced by a variety of plants, particularly conifers, and by some insects.[1][2]They often have a strong odor and may protect the plants that produce them by deterring herbivores and by attracting predators and parasites of herbivores.[3][4]Although sometimes used interchangeably with "terpenes", terpenoids (or isoprenoids) are modified terpenes as they contain additional functional groups, usually oxygen-containing.[5] Terpenes are hydrocarbons.
    I take.it people automatically thing when they read "TERPENES" they automatically thing someone is talking about drugs or something.the people that run this place and a lot of members are "older" and close minded and will likely report this post if they haven't already. you're right they should advertise that they put them into product's where I disagree is I think all natural terpenes are best for aromatic smells.that's just me.
     
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  5. DeloresRose

    DeloresRose Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Apr 25, 2014
    toledo ohio
    No comment on terpenes.

    However, not to pee in your Cheerios because, good for you making great juice, but I would advise you not to make enormous amounts of those juices, as great as they may seem so far. One, because they may not vape the same as they smell. And two, and more importantly, because some of those flavors bloom while others fade.

    500 ml is going to take quite some time to vape, even for a heavy vaper. Those juices are going to be around how long? So I would say allow your tests to rest at least as long as your large batches will last.

    For example, the blueberry flavors will fade, while the cheese cake and graham cracker will develop. I normally sft so I know how they’ll age. And one option is to make a cheesecake base and let it steep, then add your fruits to a week’s worth or so.
     
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  6. Letitia

    Letitia Citrus Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    Not to discourage you but you need to understand smells good does not always = tastes good. I too would advise not mixing more than 30ml batches until you've done your homework testing for steeped flavor strength. The getting to know your flavors is indeed tedious but will decrease future frustrations. If flavor is falling flat at first it is likely because you are missing the sweeteners and additives in the commercial juices you were vaping. This also changes the longer you vape diy juice. Just as your taste buds changed when you quit smoking, they will change as you get further away from using commercial juices.My buds go through a change about 3x a year; not as extreme as it used to be but still find I'm having to lower percentages for some flavors.
     
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  7. Sugar_and_Spice

    Sugar_and_Spice ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 11, 2010
    between here and there
    I vape Juicy Fruit but my flavoring is Flavor West. They have the most authentic tasting flavor around of all the makers who make it. Just like chewing the gum. Since these flavor makers we buy from have their origins in the food industry and still make them for the food industry, I can pretty much tell where the makers of the gum get their flavoring from. Flavor West does tend to have some flavors that are lower in strength therefore taking more product to produce the flavor you may want. So testing of each flavor, no matter whom makes it makes sense. Their flavoring also keeps developing over time(as do most flavors) and just because we deem them to our liking at a certain time of steeping, does not mean the flavor stops developing. Have you stopped to consider how long it will take to vape up 500 ml of vape ready ejuice? Much longer than you may anticipate I imagine. So its my opinion that when you start to use some of those 500ml creations that the flavoring may be too strong, or completely wiped out before you get even a 100ml vaped. There is no need to go big or go home with diy. Its a art in and of itself to mix a good ejuice that you will enjoy.

    Good luck.
     
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  8. CublalaLand

    CublalaLand Moved On

    Jun 26, 2019
    Honestly, the commercial juices I bought tasted like windex and I threw away about 2/3rd of them. They were awful. I've been vaping DIY single flavors I bought from 2 years ago. They all turned out vapeable, at least. I have 7 setups going at once so It takes me awhile to vape through a tank. I am chomping at the bit to try these new concoctions, though.

    Thanks for the advice about the cheesecake base, that's a good idea. Trust me, I won't be making any 500ml batches until I'm certain I love a juice enough to vape it for a year or more. I don't add nic until I move it to chubbies and am ready to vape it. The math on 500ml batches is just so easy. 350 VG, 50 PG, 50 Flavoring, 50 nic.

    Tree-fifties, and Three Fiddies. Used to be, you could buy a lot with that kind of money back 'inna day.
     
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  9. CublalaLand

    CublalaLand Moved On

    Jun 26, 2019
    I do get the overall picture that flavors will change over long steeps. I quit vaping and went back to smoking and left some juices to sit for a 2 years or so, I could notice the difference pretty drastically. I've done some reading though and it seems like nicotine is the ingredient that lends itself to decomposition the most, and flavors suspended in PG and VG don't dilute much. I guess I'll find out.

    I may also consider writing a few companies to inquire about ingredients. I really believe terpenes do give taste that extra 'zing' and makes a mellow flavor really pop out. I've already tried mixing just a tiny bit of mandarin orange and a few drops of cheesecake (I know I should use something like Vanilla Swirls, but it's all I have for now) to an orange creamsicle flavor, and it does make quite the difference.
     
  10. Letitia

    Letitia Citrus Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    This is simply not true for many flavors. With some the flavor will literally fade away as you vape it. Some make a comeback after a couple weeks but you won't know that if you don't take the time to find out. IMO you are focusing on the wrong components. Doing your research on the actual flavor molecules will give you more useful information.
     
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  11. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Self-Proclaimed Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    Cynical response: marketing departments have determined that the typical uneducated consumer will associate terpenes with turpentine and be fearful to buy. Same reason no drop-in coil manufacturer will use rayon despite it being superior to cotton in every way.
     
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  12. Letitia

    Letitia Citrus Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    I personally don't find rayon to be superior, just as good as some wicking materials but not better.
     
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  13. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Self-Proclaimed Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    Cynical response: that's because you have warm and fuzzy feelings that you associate with cotton, whereas rayon seems foreign, unfriendly and vaguely suspicious. And naturally so, because cotton has been in the popular consciousness for centuries and has earned our trust. On the contrary, however, rayon wicks better, resists scorching better, lasts longer, and has less flavor than cotton. That is because rayon is composed of the same cellulose as cotton, but without the impurities. You almost certainly won't believe me, and I don't expect you to. If cotton makes you happy I am not diminished.
     
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  14. Letitia

    Letitia Citrus Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    Check yourself there, I am very familiar with rayon.
     
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  15. MyMagicMist

    MyMagicMist Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2014
    WV, USA
    That was my line of thinking as well.
     
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  16. newyork13

    newyork13 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 9, 2013
    western Massachusetts
    I like skepticism. Just means you're on the look out for truth and are willing and able to question stuff and authority. Cynicism is less appealing to me, as it often just means doubting everyone and everything for personal reasons usually flowing from ego related issues.
     
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  17. CublalaLand

    CublalaLand Moved On

    Jun 26, 2019
    Well, my cola flavor turned out ok, almost like classic coke but without the bite. I kinda played three-card-monty with myself and lost. Sat there vaping away thinking it was the bubblegum flavor but with a weird note. I added it to an almost-empty tank of pear and got this strange wintergreen taste at first. It wasn't until I actually checked the bottle again that the flavor became pronounced.

    This got me delving into the spiral of wondering just how much taste is affected by other senses, or expectations. How much imagination can affect the outcome of perception. i swore I was vaping a sour-apple "Big League Chew" gum with a strange bottlecap candy overtone for a good ml, lol.
     
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  18. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Self-Proclaimed Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    Yes, being a cynic is a good way to alienate oneself. Not a desirable characteristic, nor one that I usually give voice to. But in my defense, she challenged the superiority of rayon. It couldn't be helped. I'm more than a little butthurt that manufacturers continue to snub rayon, so I have developed a conspiracy theory to explain it: to use rayon would actually hurt sales, because drop-in coils wicked with it would last too long. Call me crazy.

    I'm terrible too. I tried to combine "Lemon Lime Soda SC" from Wonder Flavors (4%) with "Cherry (Original)" from Super Concentrated (1%), and lost the flavor of both. LLS is a bit lacking on its own, but it seems like it ought to be a wonderful base flavor to showcase a highlight ingredient, so I'll try again with grape or rhubarb or something. My primary limiting factor is not having an RDA to sample from. Although now that I think about it, my RTA with the tank removed would make a serviceable dripper.
     
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  19. Letitia

    Letitia Citrus Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    Seems like the fact that rayon shrinks would make unsuitable for drop in coils. There's also having to change all the calibrations to manufacture the coils.
     
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  20. GOMuniEsq

    GOMuniEsq Self-Proclaimed Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 25, 2012
    Alberta, Canada
    I don't see how. Just pack it tighter to account for the shrinkage like we already do. The density of fibers is why it performs so well. Am I missing something? Can't speak for calibrations as I'm not familiar with their machinery but I figure if it's possible to wick a coil with sea grass then they can manage just about anything.
     
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