Will the DEA run up on my kiosk?

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Kate51

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Mar 27, 2009
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Our business is open and we are openly retailing these things. Is the DEA going to come beat me down and spray my face with pepper spray some time soon?

I am not gonna stop unless someone stops me....

I'm quite sure you'll be the first to know when it's time to leave!
I think we just all need to pay attention to the public mood, the G-men, and making sure the products are sold only to ADULTS, without over-reaching promises of Health and Welfare, without exhorbitant pricing, good business practices in general with fairness and safety to comsumers in mind, and this thing may just take off, what do you think? And as an afterthought, you as a retailer owe it to your customers to know exactly what and how you are selling, make sure your suppliers are what they say they are. Leave nothing to chance and do your own searching, do not rely on someone's sales brochure.
 
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Mac

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Jun 5, 2009
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All up in your grill..
I'm quite sure you'll be the first to know when it's time to leave!
I think we just all need to pay attention to the public mood, the G-men, and making sure the products are sold only to ADULTS, without over-reaching promises of Health and Welfare, without exhorbitant pricing, good business practices in general with fairness and safety to comsumers in mind, and this thing may just take off, what do you think? And as an afterthought, you as a retailer owe it to your customers to know exactly what and how you are selling, make sure your suppliers are what they say they are. Leave nothing to chance and do your own searching, do not rely on someone's sales brochure.

Yes I agree. 18 with ID to buy. All of my sales people are educated about the product and it's ingedients and have been instructed not to make any cessation or health claims. I fear that is not enough however and that Our government may soon put me in the unemployment line. Meanwhile business is good.
 

yvilla

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Definitely NOT the DEA. They deal with controlled substances only, drugs that are illegal to sell or to possess, and as a matter of penal law.

If the FDA decides to get into enforcement actions on products already here inside the US, it would start with cease and desist letters from them, and as a matter of civil law.
 

Wethepeople

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Jun 16, 2009
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Definitely NOT the DEA. They deal with controlled substances only, drugs that are illegal to sell or to possess, and as a matter of penal law.

If the FDA decides to get into enforcement actions on products already here inside the US, it would start with cease and desist letters from them, and as a matter of civil law.


As a new member to this board, I hate that my first post it to tell someone that they aren't correct. But I had to post a reply to your statement.

It is true that the DEA would not pay MAC a visit. But it is not correct that penalties would be limited to civil law. Without getting into details, I can tell you from personal experience that the FDA will enlist the help of either Federal Marshalls and or the local PD in order to enforce the law.

Some corporations and companies receive cease and desist letters. Others are not as lucky. I can cite several examples when the FDA comes "guns a blazin". However, posting them them here would give the false impression that the FDA only does this with larger companies. This isn't the case.

The worst part, is that one vendor may get the "knock it off" letter, while the another vendor gets the full treatment.. handcuffs, property siezure, fingerprinting, etc. It's a case by case thing and it has no rhyme or reason, imo. It almost seems like selective enforcement.

MAC, just be safe, and stay aware. Do whatever you think is best for you and your family.

More than anything, pay attention to what is happening to other vendors.
 

Kimpetuous

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Apr 22, 2009
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As a new member to this board, I hate that my first post it to tell someone that they aren't correct. But I had to post a reply to your statement.

It is true that the DEA would not pay MAC a visit. But it is not correct that penalties would be limited to civil law. Without getting into details, I can tell you from personal experience that the FDA will enlist the help of either Federal Marshalls and or the local PD in order to enforce the law.

Some corporations and companies receive cease and desist letters. Others are not as lucky. I can cite several examples when the FDA comes "guns a blazin". However, posting them them here would give the false impression that the FDA only does this with larger companies. This isn't the case.

The worst part, is that one vendor may get the "knock it off" letter, while the another vendor gets the full treatment.. handcuffs, property siezure, fingerprinting, etc. It's a case by case thing and it has no rhyme or reason, imo. It almost seems like selective enforcement.

MAC, just be safe, and stay aware. Do whatever you think is best for you and your family.

More than anything, pay attention to what is happening to other vendors.


Welcome Wethepeople! Great post. Tellin' it like it is. :D
 

yvilla

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The worst part, is that one vendor may get the "knock it off" letter, while the another vendor gets the full treatment.. handcuffs, property siezure, fingerprinting, etc. It's a case by case thing and it has no rhyme or reason, imo. It almost seems like selective enforcement.

Wethepeople, what you are failing to account for is that different levels and types of penalties, be they civil or criminal, exist for different types of violations of the Food and Drug Act (or 21 USC). You cannot speak in generalities.

While I'll be the first to admit I have not made the kind of detailed study of the penalty provisions I would be doing if representing someone charged with an offense under the Act, a quick review of FD&C Section 303 does seem to indicate that the penalties that would be specifically related to the marketing of ecigs (claimed by the FDA to be unapproved new drugs/devices) would be civil in nature. You are welcome to parse the statute yourself and contradict me if you find I am wrong:

SEC. 303. [21 USC §333] Penalties

If you have had personal experience of criminal prosecutions, rather than civil actions, under the act, then the alleged violations in those cases would have to have been for specific types of offenses that do carry criminal sanctions, as you can see in the statute cited to above.
 

WerkIt

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Mar 18, 2009
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Our business is open and we are openly retailing these things. Is the DEA going to come beat me down and spray my face with pepper spray some time soon?

I would guess the Department of Homeland Security, because you are selling a product which diverts state AND federal tobacco tax money away from government coffers, which MUST make you a financial terrorist.
 

bitey

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Wethepeople, what you are failing to account for is that different levels and types of penalties, be they civil or criminal, exist for different types of violations of the Food and Drug Act (or 21 USC). You cannot speak in generalities.

While I'll be the first to admit I have not made the kind of detailed study of the penalty provisions I would be doing if representing someone charged with an offense under the Act, a quick review of FD&C Section 303 does seem to indicate that the penalties that would be specifically related to the marketing of ecigs (claimed by the FDA to be unapproved new drugs/devices) would be civil in nature. You are welcome to parse the statute yourself and contradict me if you find I am wrong:

SEC. 303. [21 USC §333] Penalties

If you have had personal experience of criminal prosecutions, rather than civil actions, under the act, then the alleged violations in those cases would have to have been for specific types of offenses that do carry criminal sanctions, as you can see in the statute cited to above.

This is absolutely spot on. You can only be held criminally liable if you do something that is defined in the Code as a criminal offense. For now, ecigs and eliquid can be possessed and used without fear of criminal consequences.
 

Wethepeople

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Jun 16, 2009
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Kimpetuous, thank you for the welcome. I like it here. For the most part, I find this board very informative and useful.

Bitey, obviously this discussion assumes that the FDA will makes these products illegal.

Yvilla, lines 2 and 3 read as follows:
Any person who violates a provision of section 301 shall be imprisoned for not more than one year or fined not more than $1,000, or both. Prison isn’t civil.

For those unaware of how our government works, this is for each violation. Obviously Uncle Sam is nice enough to let the defendant plead guilty to only a handful of charges in order to escape prosecution from the 30-60 charges (charges are for EACH order shipped and confiscated) in the initial complaint against him.

“Not more than 1 year” sounds pretty doable right? I’m kidding. It's doubtful that a first-time offender would do any jail time. But this is little consolation to a person who has to deal with the public ridicule from those who have no idea as to why Federal Marshalls kicked in the door to their neighbor’s house. Nor will the fact that he probably won’t do any jail-time help ease his mind when he’s paying tens of thousands in attorney’s fees, has his office and personal property confiscated, and then fails to get a restful sleep for the next 6 months to 1 year.

Furthermore, the penalties listed in Section 303 have nothing to do with the manner in which a person will be contacted. Police decide how to arrest, the courts decide how to prosecute, and the FDA… given the actions over the previous few weeks.. apparently they do whatever the they want.

Since you wrote "I would be doing if representing someone charged", I'll assume that you're either a para-legal, an attorney, or you want me to believe that you're an attorney. It really doesn’t matter to me. If you're an attorney, I'll assume that you're not a defense attorney nor have you done any type of litigation, at least on a Federal level. Otherwise you would not have advised Mac that his first contact would be a letter via the mail. The fact is that Mac, or a person in his situation, may be contacted via mail (if ever), or he might have a visit from LE. The fact is, you don’t know. I don’t know either. That’s why erring on the side of caution could save this man, and his family, needless heartache. There’s no amount of money that is worth being locked in a box.

However, all of what I’ve written previously is doom and gloom. My opinion is that, if the FDA classifies any of these products as drugs, and then bans the use, sale, distribution, whatever, of e-cigs, we’ll see it coming like a cab down 6th Avenue. The smart people will be grateful for the profits they’ve made and then find a new business. Other’s won’t be as wise and they’ll push the envelope. The FDA will tell them to knock it off. Some will heed the warning, some won’t. What happens after that really depends on whether or not someone at the FDA picks this up as a pet project.

I think it’s best for all of those involved to realize that things could get bad. If these people are ok with the possible consequences, then have at it. But it is completely irresponsible for anyone on this board to act is if selling e-cigs (after a ban) is really no big deal. I would really hate to see some little old lady in Iowa think that selling e-cigs on craigslist is a great way to make extra cash and then get the shock of her life.

That being said, I’m done with this thread. I can say that I’m probably the only person in this thread, perhaps on this entire board, that has real-life experience in this area. I wanted to give Mac, and perhaps a few others, words from someone who isn’t “guessing” about the worst case scenario. Beyond that, I have no desire to get into a pissing match on the internet. It's pointless.
 

yvilla

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Oh my goodness Wethepeople, where to begin?

Bitey, obviously this discussion assumes that the FDA will makes these products illegal.

The FDA does not "make" any product illegal. It follows it's legislative mandate, as laid out in the FD&C Act. Pursuant to letters we've seen sent to suppliers, as well as the pleadings in the currently pending litigation between SE and Njoy and the FDA, we know that the FDA has taken the position that the ecigs it has examined fall within the statutory definition of "drug-device combinations under section 503(g)(1)" of the Act, and that they are "new drugs" as defined by section 201(p), thus requiring approval of an NDA (new drug application) under section 505 of the Act. See the letter I am quoting here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-news/11172-important-email-fda-supplier.html

Ecig makers and marketers don't agree with that interpretation of the law, and the essence of SE and Njoy's claims are that their ecigs are merely the functional equivalent of cigarettes, and not a "new drug" nor "drug-device combination" at all. It still remains to be seen how the presiding judge will decide this issue.

Nor does the recently passed tobacco legislation make this issue moot, as it is still essential to know whether ecigs are to be legally defined as a drug device to be regulated under the FD&C Act as currently written, or as a tobacco product to be regulated (and maybe even banned?) under the new legislation, or possibly even as falling within a yet to be defined new category. While such a third option would probably be ideal for all of us consumers, it is probably not likely to be the route taken.

In any event, it is highly unlikely that any domestic enforcement actions will occur until after Judge Leon settles the question before him as to whether ecigs are to be deemed a new drug-device combination as urged by the FDA.

If the FDA's position on this is upheld, people need to understand that if and when domestic enforcement actions occur, which is the scenario the OP was asking about, they will involve marketing, sales and distribution only, and NOT possession and use. As nicotine itself is not a controlled substance, and is lawfully obtainable in cigarettes and other tobacco products, not to mention over the counter NRT products, there simply is no basis upon which to criminalize the possession and use of ecigs for their nicotine content.

I pointed you to the penalty provisions of the Act, and you came back with this:

Yvilla, lines 2 and 3 read as follows:
Any person who violates a provision of section 301 shall be imprisoned for not more than one year or fined not more than $1,000, or both. Prison isn’t civil.

In my post, I invited you to "parse the statute", not to read just the first couple of lines and jump to a conclusion! The FD&C Act is a lengthy and complex piece of legislation, replete with definitional provisions and cross references to it's various sections, and in order to understand the consequences for a given alleged violation of it you have to read those definitions, and jump back and forth through many different sections.

So sure there are criminal sanctions for violations of section 301, as I acknowledged in my previous post, but what exactly constitutes a violation of that section is the relevant question. As seen in the FDA letter cited to above, the FDA maintains that "the marketing of the "electronic" cigarettes, cigars, and pipes, described above, in the United States without an approved NDA violates sections 505 and 501(f)(1)(B) of the Act (21 U.S.C. 355 and 351(f)(1)(B))".

Then looking more carefully at section 301(d), you can see that violations of 505 are included here, but only as follows:

"(d) The introduction or delivery for introduction into interstate commerce of any article in violation of section 404, 505 or 564."

SEC. 301. [21 USC §331] Prohibited acts

What is interstate commerce? Well, that is defined in section 201(b) of the Act:

"(b) The term "interstate commerce" means (1) commerce between any State or Territory and any place outside thereof, and (2) commerce within the District of Columbia or within any other Territory not organized with a legislative body."

SEC. 201. [21 U.S.C. 321]

The OP asked about sales out of his kiosk, and he lists his location as Virginia Beach. As that constitutes retail sales within a state, and not commerce between states, and is not within DC, it simply does not fall within the definition of a violation of 301(d).

And as for the "device" related violation under 501(f) mentioned in the FDA letter, that doesn't appear to fall under section 301 and it's criminal penalties at all, but rather under the civil penalties found in section 303 that I intially referred you to (only farther down the page), to wit, under 303(f).

SEC. 303. [21 USC §333] Penalties

Bottom line, it remains my belief that the most likely scenario if domestic enforcement actions are undertaken, once the current litigation is decided, is that someone like the OP would receive a cease and desist letter. I never said that was the worst that could happen.

For those engaged in interstate sales, however, there is the possibility of criminal sanctions under section 301(d), but even in that situation there is still a great probability, in my opinion, that warning letters will be the first step.

And I continue to believe, as I have posted many times previously, that it is really important to dispell here the frequently seen misapprehension and confusion that exists between controlled substances, commonly referred to as "illegal drugs", that are subject to criminal sanctions for possession as well as sale, and the kind of "illegality" meant by the FDA when it speaks of ecigs - and that does not extend to possession and use at all, but only to distribution, marketing and sales. Witness the OP's original question focusing on the DEA, which would have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Finally, it would be foolish indeed for anyone to rely on an internet forum for legal advice, and it should be obvious to all here that if they actually need legal advice they should indeed seek it out from an attorney in their locality.
 

tbremer

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Jun 13, 2009
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Bottom line, it remains my belief that the most likely scenario if domestic enforcement actions are undertaken, once the current litigation is decided, is that someone like the OP would receive a cease and desist letter. I never said that was the worst that could happen.

For those engaged in interstate sales, however, there is the possibility of criminal sanctions under section 301(d), but even in that situation there is still a great probability, in my opinion, that warning letters will be the first step.



first, thanks a lot for that information, it gave me a much better idea of whats going on with all this legal/illegal debacle (im new here as well, obviously, so im trying to catch up!). second, i wanted to quote what i quoted (instead of the whole thing) to say that the government tends to make examples out of some people in order to scare other people. THAT is what i would be afraid of if I were a retailer/manufacturer. not saying it will or wont happen, but you said yourself that a civil cease and desist isnt the WORST that could happen. just my .02
 
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