Plenty of vapers vape 20-30 ml per day. High watts, complex coils, juice guzzling RDAs and RDTAs.
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Your consumption level defines the risk - discussion with Dr. Farsalinos
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I'm curious, why is that ?
So long as opinions are not being presented as facts ( and i don't think any fair reader would think they were in this instance ), why should scientists not hypothesize, speculate, state opinions etc ... I for one am a lot more interested in the opinions of scientists ( especially those who have conducted and published numerous studies on the topic ) than those of random ECF posters ( no disrespect to ECF posters
). If anything wouldn't they have a stronger basis for their opinion than those who have much less data and knowledge ?
The risk is that when a scientist states an opinion others are likely to take that as a statement of fact. Therefore a scientist should always include the disclaimer "this is an opinion". But sure, the guess of a scientist who's done research on the subject is more reliable than the guess of a random person. However, in this case the guess doesn't seem to be based on much in the way of fact, at least not in light of the results Farsalinos has published thus far.I'm curious, why is that ?
So long as opinions are not being presented as facts ( and i don't think any fair reader would think they were in this instance ), why should scientists not hypothesize, speculate, state opinions etc ... I for one am a lot more interested in the opinions of scientists ( especially those who have conducted and published numerous studies on the topic ) than those of random ECF posters ( no disrespect to ECF posters
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I actually anticipated this response. It's true that there is a risk for this, but that is not the fault of the scientist ( unless he actually presented his opinion as fact ), nor a reason for scientists not to hypothesize and speculate. I don't see a reason for an explicit disclaimer , when it's quite obvious that he is presenting his opinion and not trying to present them as facts. Statements like the following make it obvious.
-To be honest I have no Idea. I consider vaping 20 and 30ml per day as extreme. So, it is hard to tell. Also, flavors are currently the biggest unknown. This does not mean they are dangerous, but we have no idea about many of the flavoring compounds.
-As for the graph, i did not mention anything about danger and i did not discuss anything about harms.I just presented the levels, and it is true that the more you vape the more you will be exposed to formaldehyde
There are people on this board who repeat other members ( let alone scientists ) opinions and misstatement of fact routinely. There is no way to stop that, human beings being human beings and therefore biased toward opinions and facts that confirm their beliefs and world view, and vice versa.
And that is your opinion on his opinion ! I now have Dr. F's opinion, and your and other ECF members evaluation of his opinion. A good thing imo
My point was not to agree or disagree with what Dr. F said, although most ( but not all ) of it makes sense to me. I just disagreed with the notion that scientists should not state their opinions.
If you are more specific about which particular opinion of his you think is not based on any fact or is completely illogical, we can discuss it further btw. He said quite a bit in those emails and i'm not sure which particular opinion you are referring to.
in reality, I'd say a good percentage of us take issue with you presenting your assumptions on what is safe amounts and getting him to correlate your ideas... not his.
Sorry, are you responding to my post or the op ? It seems your issue is with the op, but you didn't quote him, and your post is right after mine
While I'm no scientist, I'm a scholar in the humanities/social sciences and I know how easily anything said by an an expert can be used as absolute fact by those that don't know better. In fact, it's not uncommon for things said by an expert to be warped into something that has little resemblance to what was actually meant. For my part, I quickly learnt to be very, very careful when giving interviews. But, of course, a scientist/scholar should be allowed to hypothesize beyond the facts (a big part of the job I'd say, as facts say only so much). In this particular case I've heard/read Farsalinos talk a lot about high wattage vaping with large liquid consumption being potentially dangerous, but none of his research (that I've seen at least) supports the belief. He simply hasn't done any research (or at least published the results of such research) dealing with the issue specifically. That makes it a guess. An educated guess, yes, but still a guess.I actually anticipated this response. It's true that there is a risk for this, but that is not the fault of the scientist ( unless he actually presented his opinion as fact ), nor a reason for scientists not to hypothesize and speculate. I don't see a reason for an explicit disclaimer , when it's quite obvious that he is presenting his opinion and not trying to present them as facts. Statements like the following make it obvious.
-To be honest I have no Idea. I consider vaping 20 and 30ml per day as extreme. So, it is hard to tell. Also, flavors are currently the biggest unknown. This does not mean they are dangerous, but we have no idea about many of the flavoring compounds.
-As for the graph, i did not mention anything about danger and i did not discuss anything about harms.I just presented the levels, and it is true that the more you vape the more you will be exposed to formaldehyde
There are people on this board who repeat other members ( let alone scientists ) opinions and misstatement of fact routinely. There is no way to stop that, human beings being human beings and therefore biased toward opinions and facts that confirm their beliefs and world view, and vice versa.
And that is your opinion on his opinion ! I now have Dr. F's opinion, and your and other ECF members evaluation of his opinion. A good thing imo
My point was not to agree or disagree with what Dr. F said, although most ( but not all ) of it makes sense to me. I just disagreed with the notion that scientists should not state their opinions.
If you are more specific about which particular opinion of his you think is not based on any fact or is completely illogical, we can discuss it further btw. He said quite a bit in those emails and i'm not sure which particular opinion you are referring to.
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I know there are and I find that interesting, just I don't personally know any.
If you're that worried about it, you can always quit vaping. It's no big deal. There's other ways to ween off of nicotine.
As for me I go thru about 10-15ml a day of DIY. I do 10% flavoring max and I've been doing this for over a year. I will say I don't experience any adverse health effects. But in 6 months of smoking Marlboros I lost lung capacity, wheezed, found it hard to breathe, and coughed up black tar. That right there is enough to put my mind at ease about vaping. It seems the op is so paranoid about flavorings and juice consumption that he doesnt enjoy the act of vaping at all. If that were the case, I would just quit.
As for me I go thru about 10-15ml a day of DIY. I do 10% flavoring max and I've been doing this for over a year. I will say I don't experience any adverse health effects. But in 6 months of smoking Marlboros I lost lung capacity, wheezed, found it hard to breathe, and coughed up black tar. That right there is enough to put my mind at ease about vaping. It seems the op is so paranoid about flavorings and juice consumption that he doesnt enjoy the act of vaping at all. If that were the case, I would just quit.
Vaping let's say 5 ml a day at 15 mg/ml gets me a nicotine 'fix' 'worth' 75 mg.
Same quantity can be had at 5 mg/ml at 15 ml day.
Simple math.
Still up to the individual vaper whether s/he wants the nic fix hard and compact or flavour laden to the hilt or none at all.
Agree with the good doc on the flavours part. Smelling (i.e. inhaling) is HUGE component of the taste experience.
Tongue itself isn't really very good at that with a mere 5 base notes. The flavours we put in our juices were originally meant for eating and drinking. So there is indeed little - if any - research into inhaling them in high quantities. Neither scaremongering nor placating all-is-fine-talk can replace unbiased research into that.
But thinking about the stuff making it's way into your lungs while waiting for the green light at a busy intersection should put it into perspective ...
Same quantity can be had at 5 mg/ml at 15 ml day.
Simple math.
Still up to the individual vaper whether s/he wants the nic fix hard and compact or flavour laden to the hilt or none at all.
Agree with the good doc on the flavours part. Smelling (i.e. inhaling) is HUGE component of the taste experience.
Tongue itself isn't really very good at that with a mere 5 base notes. The flavours we put in our juices were originally meant for eating and drinking. So there is indeed little - if any - research into inhaling them in high quantities. Neither scaremongering nor placating all-is-fine-talk can replace unbiased research into that.
But thinking about the stuff making it's way into your lungs while waiting for the green light at a busy intersection should put it into perspective ...
My goal is to vape fewer ml's regardless of nic %. I'm not a fan of the low nic levels when it encourages higher daily ml's. That may be good for juice company sales but may be not for vapers. May be the benefit of nic is it tells you when to stop vaping so sometimes more nic is better than less.
Our batteries can cause problems so I don't use mechs, I source batteries carefully to avoid fakes, and look for 100% amp head space at the cutoff voltage. Flavoring might be a problem so I use the bare minimum. I keep nic % higher if that keeps daily ml's lower. The point Dr F is making, which I agree with, is vaping "too much" nic is probably lower risk than vaping to many ml's.
So far epidemeologists have not reported an illness trend caused by vaping. We should dearly hope it to stays that way.
Our batteries can cause problems so I don't use mechs, I source batteries carefully to avoid fakes, and look for 100% amp head space at the cutoff voltage. Flavoring might be a problem so I use the bare minimum. I keep nic % higher if that keeps daily ml's lower. The point Dr F is making, which I agree with, is vaping "too much" nic is probably lower risk than vaping to many ml's.
So far epidemeologists have not reported an illness trend caused by vaping. We should dearly hope it to stays that way.
I've read many of Dr. F's papers and am grateful for his efforts. But, there are too many unaddressed variables to put any use in practice to his words presented here.
I've vaped many different styles over the years: reduced my nic to zero & back on it again, low volume & high volume. In my experience, the highest risk vaping was 3-4ml a day of highly flavored liquid on a clearo with a prebuilt coil. The variablity in coil/wick quality is astounding. It could have just been inexperience, but aldehyde production was much more prevelent (flavor/scent detection).
The one known risk of high volume vaping over low volume was not presented. The repeated passing of hot fluid through the throat is known to increase rates of cancer. My coffee drinking already checks that box. But, the risk goes up a bit after that. I enjoy a vape that's warm to hot and that carries some risk.
There was no attempt made to address, lower PG and flavoring concentrations, vaping unflavored, wicking, chamber size, fresh air mixture, and length of draw; all of which can be used to put the balance tipping in the other direction.
I've vaped many different styles over the years: reduced my nic to zero & back on it again, low volume & high volume. In my experience, the highest risk vaping was 3-4ml a day of highly flavored liquid on a clearo with a prebuilt coil. The variablity in coil/wick quality is astounding. It could have just been inexperience, but aldehyde production was much more prevelent (flavor/scent detection).
The one known risk of high volume vaping over low volume was not presented. The repeated passing of hot fluid through the throat is known to increase rates of cancer. My coffee drinking already checks that box. But, the risk goes up a bit after that. I enjoy a vape that's warm to hot and that carries some risk.
There was no attempt made to address, lower PG and flavoring concentrations, vaping unflavored, wicking, chamber size, fresh air mixture, and length of draw; all of which can be used to put the balance tipping in the other direction.
I have said in the past, many ejuice vendors were not knowledgeable and I certainly don't trust them either (otherwise I would not have vaped Cutwood's poisonous Unicorn Milk that had titanium dioxide and other colorings in it
it was a pinkish white) ....are you telling me they "knew what they were doing?"
Never peeked at an MDS sheet or anything? Just add some colors to make it look prettier with no regard to the fact that this is going into people's bodies?Some were roofers before this, or sold other things like beanie babies or whatever was a "hot" consumer item. One guy I knew who opened a vape shop had sold rocks on Ebay before this. I watched a nicotine vendor who claimed to be a chemist send out a product to a user here where the stuff was packaged completely incorrectly and had leaked all over the place in the box, outside the box........what *chemist* would do this? None. Nada. Chemist my .....
Asking specific questions is now a conspiracy theory of some sort?
There was no pushing that I can see-- Unless asking specific questions about subject matter you want to know more about is pushing.
alcan is calling, they've gotten more in stock for you...
you may have had bad experiences, you may like conspiracy theories and trying to pin a doctor/scientist down to your specific beliefs... not everyone is going to accept it. the OP did try to make it really, really specific, and still failed, as he refused to be nailed down to a specific. just like with anything else, you will have those that are shady and those that are not, it's in all aspects of life... learning to recognize and avoid such things is part of becoming a semi-mature adult. considering we deal with such judgment calls all the time, with hazardous materials and actions daily as well... time to grow up. moderation for anything... is important and the phrase about "too much of a good thing" is very true.
you may have had bad experiences, you may like conspiracy theories and trying to pin a doctor/scientist down to your specific beliefs... not everyone is going to accept it. the OP did try to make it really, really specific, and still failed, as he refused to be nailed down to a specific. just like with anything else, you will have those that are shady and those that are not, it's in all aspects of life... learning to recognize and avoid such things is part of becoming a semi-mature adult. considering we deal with such judgment calls all the time, with hazardous materials and actions daily as well... time to grow up. moderation for anything... is important and the phrase about "too much of a good thing" is very true.
But, "too much of everything, is just enough" made perfect sense through my twenties (into my thirties a bit too).
Everything about vaping can be habit forming including the clouds, the flavors, and the nic. May be the most harmless of them is the nic. If vapers are reducing the nic so they can consume more of the other two that might be a cause for concern.
What do you mean with wicking, chamber size, fresh air mixture, length of draw?
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