your opinion on e-cig use by minors on Youtube
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I read the responses to the flagging and reporting of videos in the previous thread and wanted to add my 2 cents. Taking down a youtube video of a kid is not causing the child harm... period. The only purpose these children's videos serve is to round about market the use of electronic cigarettes to other children by showing peers doing it. If a teen is a smoker and wants to quit he or she could easily come here and do the research, there is no need to post a video "look at me i'm so cool I vape". The parents of these kids need to get their heads out of the clouds as they obviously haven't properly informed their kids of the dangers of smoking, its not about being controlling its about being responsible. There is simply no place for these and I will continue to help identify these videos for deletion by Google.
There is no harm being done by taking down videos. Encouraging minors to use a product that I view as a less harmful alternative to something that was slowly killing me is insane. Vape like a chimney? Make videos promoting the use of e-cigs to minors? Did it ever occur to you that kids that DO NOT smoke might watch these and then think that its the cool thing to do? If you want to educate them then do so with informative videos made by people educated in the subject and direct them here.
I don't think the kids are wrong I think you are wrong for promoting this kind of thought process. The kids are doing what kids will do naturally. I am a parent and the last thing I'm going to do it tell my daughter to vape, I'm going to discourage her from smoking or vaping anything and tell her about how much it hurt her Dad. If someday she chooses to go down that road even with all the information I give her, then I will be there with advice and support.
You aren't being pro-active you are dooming kids to the same fate that so many of us are trying to escape.
Edit: Watch the last video posted in that thread and tell me that's helping anybody. He specifically says he has NEVER smoked before and is comparing it to illegal drug use. It's not up to you to determine who is and isn't a proper minor for a video, there is no such thing. It's basically telling everybody this thing is cool and you can get it anywhere. If they need help quitting or changing to a less harmful alternative direct them here, don't call ECF evil people. If it wasn't for the accurate and plentiful information here along with the great support the forum provides many smokers would have never succeeded with vaping.
There is no harm being done by taking down videos. Encouraging minors to use a product that I view as a less harmful alternative to something that was slowly killing me is insane. Vape like a chimney? Make videos promoting the use of e-cigs to minors? Did it ever occur to you that kids that DO NOT smoke might watch these and then think that its the cool thing to do? If you want to educate them then do so with informative videos made by people educated in the subject and direct them here.
I don't think the kids are wrong I think you are wrong for promoting this kind of thought process. The kids are doing what kids will do naturally. I am a parent and the last thing I'm going to do it tell my daughter to vape, I'm going to discourage her from smoking or vaping anything and tell her about how much it hurt her Dad. If someday she chooses to go down that road even with all the information I give her, then I will be there with advice and support.
You aren't being pro-active you are dooming kids to the same fate that so many of us are trying to escape.
Edit: Watch the last video posted in that thread and tell me that's helping anybody. He specifically says he has NEVER smoked before and is comparing it to illegal drug use. It's not up to you to determine who is and isn't a proper minor for a video, there is no such thing. It's basically telling everybody this thing is cool and you can get it anywhere. If they need help quitting or changing to a less harmful alternative direct them here, don't call ECF evil people. If it wasn't for the accurate and plentiful information here along with the great support the forum provides many smokers would have never succeeded with vaping.
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I'll take your points as they came.
Not causing the kid any harm? For one, it's demeaning to the kid. For two, the kid goes away with the feeling the e-cig community doesn't support their efforts to get off cigarettes by using an e-cig. kids are impressionable. They may take offence to this and that may cause them to start smoking again.
These teens videos serve to help educate other teens about vaping - teens who smoke, who need e-cigs as much as you do. it's wrong to deny a teen that.
Yes, the teens should tell other teens " Look at me, I'm a cool Vaper !" That's just the thing they should do. They need to help their smoker friends see appeal for vaping. We use flavored e-juice, even PV that light up or make sounds. We do the " hey look at me, vaping is cool" thing all the time.
Yes, dangers of SMOKING, not vaping. I can tell from your reply you did not bother to read my thread on encouraging teens to vape before they get hooked on cigs - to know where I am coming from. If you equate vaping with the dangers of smoking, then you really have a lot to learn about vaping. There is not only no smoke, but the nicotine is not the same as the stuff used in smokable cigarettes - it is only mildly addictive and carries the same health risk as coffee drinkers. (search Freebase Nicotine for this - that's what cigarettes use. E-cigs nicotine is chemically different because it is pure and not made super strong by the tobacco companies. They created that because people were Not getting hooked to thier liking - it effected sales) Parents, give their kids soda pop all the time from early ages and it can be way more damaging to a kid than vaping.
Do you even bother to find out if the teen's parents approve of his vaping first before you flag them? No you do not.
Yes, some kids who do not smoke may be tempted by vaping. I'm fine with that.. if they want to try nicotine, at least it's not in the form of a smoking cigarette. All teens who smoke made the conscious choice to try nicotine first before they picked up thier first cigarette. If you cannot talk the teen out of it, I'd rather see that kid with an e-cig in his hand any day over a real cigarette.
Again, read my thread on why I suggest parents should encourage teens to vape before they get hooked on cigarettes.. Try to really see my point of view.
I am educated on the subject. I studied e-cigs and all the in's and outs the pros and cons and what everyone was saying about them, and who had an agenda - for two solid months before I choose to try an e-cig. That was over a year ago. I have learned much more since. The kids I've talked to do visit ECF and other vaping forums and they are educated on the subject.
You said it yourself: " The kids are doing what kids will do naturally." Kids will go behind a parents back to smoke. Once a teen chooses to use nicotine, you have three choices. Discourage them, let them smoke or let them vape.
Of course we as parents wish that our kids never want to use nicotine and we do everything to discourage this - but hundreds of years of parents trying to discourage the teens from smoking has not worked. That's why once a kid makes up his mind to smoke, they hide it from the parents. My thread which you do not understand because you have not read, is all about a parent fostering the type of relationship with the teen where the teen can feel comfortable coming to the parent and saying, " Mom, I want to try smoking. I know you don't want me to but you did tell me about a safer alternative that at least we both can live with. Can you help me get started using an e-cig?" - I think this option is much preferred than letting the teen smoke if the teen is determined to do it.
I believe talking to the teen about this before hand, will go a long way toward helping the teen make a better choice if they choose to smoke. Not talking to the teen about it and always telling them you are anti nicotine will just force the teen away from you and cause them to smoke behind your back.
Again, read my thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...vape-before-they-start-smoking-proactive.html
I do not apologize for posting in the Op's thread. That thread is unbalanced and the Op should not have a monopoly on opinion in that thread. I have mentioned this before and 1) I do not believe the Op can really do that according to ECF rules and 2) no mod has told me otherwise. I was not going to post in that thread again, but I felt I had to counter your statement about me.
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Reply to your edit:
True, I had not watched That video in full. I did ask the kid to send me his story and I would have found out then that he never smoked.
It doesn't make any difference anyway because I did not bring my comments to him into the Op's thread. You did that.
If you would have just left things alone, the op's thread would not have my reply you disapprove of so much and this thread would not have this discussion that I am sure the Op hates to see mucking up her thread because some people just might feel I'm right and therefore hurt her teen video stomping agenda.
The op has told me before she/he hates my opinions being posted in his/her threads and has willingly tried to keep making other threads on the issue to Avoid Me Seeing Them. I'm sure the op will have a cow when she/he sees these.
I find that very funny and ironic.
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First off I had no idea the post in the youtube comments was you. I assumed it was someone scouring the internet for some way to show e-cigs as a gateway device into smoking traditional cigarettes.
The kid isn't going away feeling demeaned, he or she is going away realizing that if he is going to smoke or vape he doesn't need to make a video about it and post it to a site with millions of visitors each day. The e-cigarette community isn't condemning them for vaping as an alternative to smoking. Make no mistake I am trying to keep minors from convincing other minors to use a product that can cause them real harm in the long run by marketing it on a video website.
You speak about the dangers of vaping as if it is scientific fact that it is better for you than drinking coffee or a soda. I think we can agree that most people who switch feel a lot better afterwards, and accept the risk of long term complications. I'm not going to be persuaded by a few articles and posts, the only thing that will prove 100% without a doubt that it is THAT safe is 20 years of studies. What I will accept is that it is better for me than smoking was and I am making the choice to continue using it as a less harmful alternative.
I read your thread and I see that plenty of times you make good points, but your viewpoint on THIS subject is what I have a problem with.
Honestly a lot of what you say is just fine by me as far as education and preemptive talks because thats how I parent as well. My problem is that you think its o.k. to then go post videos about it to youtube. It serves NO purpose other than show other kids that you can get one, use it, and enjoy it. Don't try to sell them the safer alternative by using tactics made famous by cigarette companies themselves. If you really want to help get the message out why not make an educational video for current smokers about the benefits you have felt by switching. Why not send them PRIVATE messages and inform them that there is a forum to support them.
Don't try to turn this into an I hate kids because I disagree with you thread. You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking you are the only one who truly cares about kids just because we don't want videos about probably soon to be illegal use of electronic cigarettes by minors posted on a public website. You might want to sit down and really take a look at what you are doing, you are not accomplishing what you intended.
What purpose does a minor showing use of an electronic cigarette in a video serve, than an adult in that same video cannot? It's called marketing to a target group and its the same reason why Trix cereal has a cartoon rabbit as a spokesperson. Billboards of a Cartoon camel smoking a cigarette named "Joe Cool" sure wasn't aimed at Adults either. If you want electronic cigarettes to continue to be accepted in mainstream society you need to present them in a responsible way.
If we follow the slogan of your avatar we will all find ourselves back on analogs in no time at all. You cannot win an argument by walking into a room and proclaiming yourself right about everything, you need to be willing to hear both sides and come to agreeable conclusions. By taking the most controversial topic possible and supporting it without taking into account how others view it, you are just asking for that unalienable right to be taken right out of your hands.
"Responsible"... with this one word anyone can claim ultimate moral high ground without actually justifying anything.
Many of you claim "underage" e-cig videos encourage other young people to vape... I would naturally assume you same righteous souls do not allow your offspring to play violent games, or watch MTV, or utilize birth control, or eat Mcdonalds, or drive sporty cars, or wear controversial clothing... I could go on. Surely you never vape in front of children, or drink alcohol in front of them... or coffee, as that contains addictive drugs!
Young people will do exactly what they want, and the more you try to stop them the harder they will work to ensure that they get those e-cigs.
If I wrote the law, there would be no age restrictions on vaping, smoking, drinking, or much else besides. "Responsibility" must be taught, it cannot be legislated, and it certainly cannot be spread by white knights on the internet.
Many of you claim "underage" e-cig videos encourage other young people to vape... I would naturally assume you same righteous souls do not allow your offspring to play violent games, or watch MTV, or utilize birth control, or eat Mcdonalds, or drive sporty cars, or wear controversial clothing... I could go on. Surely you never vape in front of children, or drink alcohol in front of them... or coffee, as that contains addictive drugs!
Young people will do exactly what they want, and the more you try to stop them the harder they will work to ensure that they get those e-cigs.
If I wrote the law, there would be no age restrictions on vaping, smoking, drinking, or much else besides. "Responsibility" must be taught, it cannot be legislated, and it certainly cannot be spread by white knights on the internet.
J808
Over and over again you keep suggesting that these teen videos do not do anything to encourage other teens who smoke to try vaping. I am at a loss as to how anyone could come to that conclusion. Teens look toward other teens for approval. Teens follow what other teens do. Yes, teen smokers need to know that they can obtain e-cigs ( even illegally or by getting their parents to buy them for them) and use and enjoy them. There is nothing wrong with that if it saves the kids life in the long run.
I don't think you hate kids, I never said that.. I think judging a teen without knowing their situation is wrong. I look at all the videos posted in that thread and all the people who flagged them and they all just reacted on instinct, without thinking, without knowing the facts of the teens vaping situation - without seeming to care about such things. That type of behavior is what I conciser evil. You see, I have seen this topic many times and considered it from both sides and I have found the other side seriously flawed.
These teens are, most of them almost adults. you don't see many 11 and 12 year olds making e-cig videos. ECF and Youtube are international communities. In some countries 12 years of age is considered an adult with all the privileges that entails, including legally smoking. But people here in America must always think of people below the age of 18 to be non adults - and treat them like children. Why is this? because some silly man made law says so?
What matters here is to treat the teens as adults because they made an adult choice. They got into smoking and they need help. We should give them that help from whatever avenue they are willing to accept. What better way to encourage a teen smoker to try vaping than to see other teens vape?
I do send these teens private messages. I also post a lot in public view. I do so because I choose to do so. I'm not going to hide or go away on this issue. If I have something to say to a teen like there is a gang of folks out to get you and judge you without even bothering to get to know you, then it is within my right to make that a public post.
But you have a good idea. I think I will make a video for teens who smoke and teens who vape. I will encourage them both to either start using e-cigs or continue using e-cigs. I will tell them there are tons of adult vapers who are proud of them and stand by them. Lets face it, these teens accepted the risks of smoking in the first place. They choose e-cigs for the same reasons you do, so they will not die a horrible painful death due to cigarette smoking. The risks they have already accepted. With e-cigs they get to continue their favorite habit at much less risk than before. It's a win win.
It's even more important that teen smokers switch to vaping as soon as possible because they are still developing and because of this the smoke is causing greater harm - 100% of that harm can be avoided with e-cigs (no smoke).
Over and over again you keep suggesting that these teen videos do not do anything to encourage other teens who smoke to try vaping. I am at a loss as to how anyone could come to that conclusion. Teens look toward other teens for approval. Teens follow what other teens do. Yes, teen smokers need to know that they can obtain e-cigs ( even illegally or by getting their parents to buy them for them) and use and enjoy them. There is nothing wrong with that if it saves the kids life in the long run.
I don't think you hate kids, I never said that.. I think judging a teen without knowing their situation is wrong. I look at all the videos posted in that thread and all the people who flagged them and they all just reacted on instinct, without thinking, without knowing the facts of the teens vaping situation - without seeming to care about such things. That type of behavior is what I conciser evil. You see, I have seen this topic many times and considered it from both sides and I have found the other side seriously flawed.
These teens are, most of them almost adults. you don't see many 11 and 12 year olds making e-cig videos. ECF and Youtube are international communities. In some countries 12 years of age is considered an adult with all the privileges that entails, including legally smoking. But people here in America must always think of people below the age of 18 to be non adults - and treat them like children. Why is this? because some silly man made law says so?
What matters here is to treat the teens as adults because they made an adult choice. They got into smoking and they need help. We should give them that help from whatever avenue they are willing to accept. What better way to encourage a teen smoker to try vaping than to see other teens vape?
I do send these teens private messages. I also post a lot in public view. I do so because I choose to do so. I'm not going to hide or go away on this issue. If I have something to say to a teen like there is a gang of folks out to get you and judge you without even bothering to get to know you, then it is within my right to make that a public post.
But you have a good idea. I think I will make a video for teens who smoke and teens who vape. I will encourage them both to either start using e-cigs or continue using e-cigs. I will tell them there are tons of adult vapers who are proud of them and stand by them. Lets face it, these teens accepted the risks of smoking in the first place. They choose e-cigs for the same reasons you do, so they will not die a horrible painful death due to cigarette smoking. The risks they have already accepted. With e-cigs they get to continue their favorite habit at much less risk than before. It's a win win.
It's even more important that teen smokers switch to vaping as soon as possible because they are still developing and because of this the smoke is causing greater harm - 100% of that harm can be avoided with e-cigs (no smoke).
Look you can attempt to lump in a bunch of ideals to attempt to group everyone into a preconceived category of "righteous souls" who don't let their children do anything. This is just simply not the case and has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing. There is appropriate times in a child's life that certain things are acceptable, and there are many reasons for the current age restrictions. If you disagree with this you are more than welcome to voice that opinion but encouraging all teens and children to vape is wrong without intimate knowledge of their individual situations and the training to do so. Like I said before, I educate kids about the positive and negatives of a given subject and help them make their own decisions but there is just some things that they are not yet equipped to have choice in. By your same logic kids should be getting sex education at age 4, having kids of their own at age 10, and drinking themselves to death from the divorce at age 15.
This has absolutely no relevance to the argument and is just an attempt to slight people who don't follow your belief. You obviously are upset about the laws and lack of freedoms Americans have and I can agree with that, but there is a system and we must follow it until we find the RIGHT way to change it. Children are not the vessel of change when used in this manner. Trying to use them to "teach" responsibility isn't going to work because its not usually them lacking it, its their parents.
Ok I will repeat this, taking down someones youtube video does not inflict damage to someone. If you encourage kids to make videos of vaping, take a wild guess what kind of videos you will start seeing. There is a law in place because although SOME kids can make good choices at younger ages there is a good amount who cannot. What happens when you encourage the "Right" kids to make videos to help others, and in response you get a million videos of how if you vape 10 minutes straight you can get light headed and it feels like a drug (just an example). This is what kids do. You are not encouraging JUST kids who smoke to vape, when they see other kids doing it they will want to try it as well.
The reason you don't go case by case with laws is simply because who will enforce them. Are you saying you will personally get to know and guide every single of the millions of children in the country? Are you saying you are qualified to even do it? The law is there because without it the amount of unguided irresponsible children and adults far outweigh the responsible ones trained and willing to help.
If you want to spearhead a campaign to help underage smokers kick the habit, more power to you I support that. I just think there are much better ways to go about it than using marketing tactics to get minors to vape. You just simply cannot control who your videos are going to affect. If you want to make a video with an adult speaking from a position of knowledge in order to help current smokers regardless of age nothing is stopping you, but if kids are used to promote the idea that vaping is cool I will continue to report every last one and I hope others do too.
Last point and I know its not popular opinion. There is NO EVIDENCE that vaping is 100% safe and that doing it instead of smoking is 100% safer. Making that claim makes you sound like the vaping version of the FDA and will only accomplish a complete ban on electronic cigarettes. It is probably going to be found in the future to be a LOT safer than smoking, and many can attest to that fact. Nobody can say with 100% certainty that it is completely safe yet as there hasn't been any long term studies done. Until then the only thing I think ANYBODY can say without any doubt is that it has helped them quit smoking and that their health has improved since quitting smoking with an electronic cigarette and while using it. I personally want to keep my healthier alternative knowing the risks involved, until proper testing is completed by non-biased entities.
J808
It's called collateral damage. If there are 30.000 teen videos that actually help 30.000 teen smokers to switch to vaping and it saves their life, then I do Not care if another 30, 000 teens who were never smokers start vaping.
Why? because those are teens who already made the decision to try smoking and they have already accepted the risks. Otherwise, they would just try real cigarettes. I'd rather see those teens try vaping if anything because vaping is by and large benign.
Yes, there is. Inhalation in the long term of PG and VG as well as nicotine has been studied for years. These are considered safe for inhalation even by the FDA. The only thing that has not been tested are flavorings for long term inhalation - but we know whats in most of them and most of them are made with safe FDA approved food flavorings made for consumption. These chemicals are far less dangerous than even the chemicals you feed your kids every day in the processed foods. That's why PG and VG were chosen. The e-cig needed a medium to help deliver the nicotine and the scientists and pharmacists who developed the e-cig studied this and chose the safest substances possible. I'll bet you a 100 dollars if I went through your pantry I'd find tons of over processed foods with harsh chemicals that you never heard of or even studied the effects of . Yet, you give this to your kids. We do KNOW what's in E-cigs at least - I'd feel better about kids vaping than eating many foods off grocery store shelves.
I didn't say e-cigs were 100 % safe - but NOTHING is- including water and oxygen. Both water and oxygen can be deadly poisons. I said they were 100 % safer than inhaling tobacco smoke and I'll stand by that any day of the week.
It's called collateral damage. If there are 30.000 teen videos that actually help 30.000 teen smokers to switch to vaping and it saves their life, then I do Not care if another 30, 000 teens who were never smokers start vaping.
Why? because those are teens who already made the decision to try smoking and they have already accepted the risks. Otherwise, they would just try real cigarettes. I'd rather see those teens try vaping if anything because vaping is by and large benign.
Yes, there is. Inhalation in the long term of PG and VG as well as nicotine has been studied for years. These are considered safe for inhalation even by the FDA. The only thing that has not been tested are flavorings for long term inhalation - but we know whats in most of them and most of them are made with safe FDA approved food flavorings made for consumption. These chemicals are far less dangerous than even the chemicals you feed your kids every day in the processed foods. That's why PG and VG were chosen. The e-cig needed a medium to help deliver the nicotine and the scientists and pharmacists who developed the e-cig studied this and chose the safest substances possible. I'll bet you a 100 dollars if I went through your pantry I'd find tons of over processed foods with harsh chemicals that you never heard of or even studied the effects of . Yet, you give this to your kids. We do KNOW what's in E-cigs at least - I'd feel better about kids vaping than eating many foods off grocery store shelves.
I didn't say e-cigs were 100 % safe - but NOTHING is- including water and oxygen. Both water and oxygen can be deadly poisons. I said they were 100 % safer than inhaling tobacco smoke and I'll stand by that any day of the week.
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20% of teens smoke which has been a fairly steady number, which equates to about 6,000,000 individuals. Your collateral damage includes a possible 80% of the teen population or 18,000,000 teens. This isn't war collateral damage especially when it could cost lives of America's youth is NEVER worth the risk. Don't you remember being a kid, or even when you started smoking? They don't understand the risks because they feel like they will live forever. After 20 years the risks involved become all too clear as you are suffering them on a daily basis. If I was one of those kids who never wanted to smoke but was in some way drawn to vaping by cruising the internet watching videos of other teens I am not going to be as healthy as a non smoking, non vaping kid in 20 years except for rare instances (some smokers never have any problems and live until they are 100).
The fact is you just cannot be certain of the effects of long term heavy dosages used in vaping being inhaled, as there has never been a study that took all of the chemicals into account and used human subjects. There are great signs pointing to it being near harmless and that's the reason I vape, but blindly following a few studies not even conducted using the same concentrations on monkeys and rats doesn't really work for me. This isn't a comparison of vaping vs soda and food products as its not a valid argument because we KNOW the risks of those products and we as parents can limit the intake of them to our children. I'll take you up on that $100 bet btw its just another assumption that you made and are completely wrong about.
Want to know how e-cigarettes become a gateway drug which they are NOT right now? If we promote the use of them to kids who cannot get them other than stealing the disposables from stores, and they find the experience cool but not really "doing enough". Instead of coming here they go bum a smoke off someone and realize that they get much more of a buzz off that rather than the junk quality PV they tried. If we remain responsible as users and promoters of safer alternatives and do everything in our power to prevent minors from using them we can eliminate that scenario by keeping them with the other restricted products behind counters. There will be cases that we need to help a young smoker get off of tobacco products and in those cases vaping could be used as a great alternative. Those children should be given that advice from doctors, parents, or adults they trust that were informed of the benefits of e-cigarettes from people like us and published findings from unbiased studies.
The best thing we can do to help teens is raise awareness of this product to adults and people in power so that they don't shut it down before it can help the millions who haven't been to a resource such as ECF. We need to get the word out in an ethical way that doesn't discredit us and lump us in the same group as the corrupt tobacco companies who make a buck at any cost including lives of children. Help the kids you know need help but please understand that when you take a stance like this you cannot see the full extent of damage it could do and once you do its usually too late.
Nicotine is a product for adults.
** I should also add that although vaping is a safer product, no adult product should be marketed towards minors. If the message is "vaping is healthier than cigarettes" then let those who smoke (including minors) decide.
However, if we take the approach of supporting youtube clips advertising the product as cool and great product for teens, then we are as bad as big tobacco.
** I should also add that although vaping is a safer product, no adult product should be marketed towards minors. If the message is "vaping is healthier than cigarettes" then let those who smoke (including minors) decide.
However, if we take the approach of supporting youtube clips advertising the product as cool and great product for teens, then we are as bad as big tobacco.
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"the nicotine is not the same as the stuff used in smokable cigarettes - it is only mildly addictive and carries the same health risk as coffee drinkers. (search Freebase Nicotine for this - that's what cigarettes use. E-cigs nicotine is chemically different because it is pure and not made super strong by the tobacco companies. They created that because people were Not getting hooked to thier liking - it effected sales)"
Sorry I could see where you were coming from John up until the point above, but Nicotine is Nicotine. Nicotine is not super strong in cigarettes, cigarettes are coated in ammonia to increase the nicotine uptake. Nicotine is THE addictive substance, its why vaping works, why gum works and why cigarettes works at keeping you addicted.
Nicotine is an addictive substance, and if you want to use anecdotal evidence, ask a long time ex smoker if he or she still gets cravings?
I understand your point about protecting the health of teen smokers. However, you can't argue that peer influence is the major reason why most young people start smoking. This peer influence for vaping will have the same effect.
Sorry I could see where you were coming from John up until the point above, but Nicotine is Nicotine. Nicotine is not super strong in cigarettes, cigarettes are coated in ammonia to increase the nicotine uptake. Nicotine is THE addictive substance, its why vaping works, why gum works and why cigarettes works at keeping you addicted.
Nicotine is an addictive substance, and if you want to use anecdotal evidence, ask a long time ex smoker if he or she still gets cravings?
I understand your point about protecting the health of teen smokers. However, you can't argue that peer influence is the major reason why most young people start smoking. This peer influence for vaping will have the same effect.
E-cigs have been around since 2003. There is no evidence that teens have ever started smoking cigarettes do to their e-cig use - world wide. Nor has there been any serious health problems associated with vaping.
I know many vapers who could quit vaping Much easier than they could quit cigarettes. It's not just the ammonia, it's other chemicals in tobacco that add to the nicotine strength and addictiveness. If nicotine was responsible alone and it is as addictive in both forms as you say, ( something proven untrue) then vaping would not help anyone quit using nicotine. I know many people who say their cravings are not the same as when they smoked. I noticed this for myself the first week after I switched.
A vaper can even go up to 36 mg's for weeks and then back down and not have the same type of cravings they had when they smoked. There IS a difference.
You gonna tell chemists, doctors and other scientists who have studied this that they are wrong? if so, I hope you can bring something earth shattering because they have seen and heard everything.
Remember, I do not advocate that teens who never smoked use e-cigs. However, I believe there is enough science on the side of e-cigs that says it really won't hurt those teens. Certainly nothing to suggest that it is deadly in any way or will cause any serious health problems - world wide since 2003. You would think that if there were such problems with vaping that they would be all over the news but that's not the case.
Perhaps not together, but long term studies on health of inhalation of PG, VG and nicotine have been done and found that it was relatively harmless. Many of these studies even involved children! There is no reason to think that these taken together will cause any greater harm.
I know many vapers who could quit vaping Much easier than they could quit cigarettes. It's not just the ammonia, it's other chemicals in tobacco that add to the nicotine strength and addictiveness. If nicotine was responsible alone and it is as addictive in both forms as you say, ( something proven untrue) then vaping would not help anyone quit using nicotine. I know many people who say their cravings are not the same as when they smoked. I noticed this for myself the first week after I switched.
A vaper can even go up to 36 mg's for weeks and then back down and not have the same type of cravings they had when they smoked. There IS a difference.
You gonna tell chemists, doctors and other scientists who have studied this that they are wrong? if so, I hope you can bring something earth shattering because they have seen and heard everything.
Remember, I do not advocate that teens who never smoked use e-cigs. However, I believe there is enough science on the side of e-cigs that says it really won't hurt those teens. Certainly nothing to suggest that it is deadly in any way or will cause any serious health problems - world wide since 2003. You would think that if there were such problems with vaping that they would be all over the news but that's not the case.
Perhaps not together, but long term studies on health of inhalation of PG, VG and nicotine have been done and found that it was relatively harmless. Many of these studies even involved children! There is no reason to think that these taken together will cause any greater harm.
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I agree with most of what you have to say. Your absolutely right that e cigs are better for a persons health.
I have access to my universities research data base, and I have read through a large amount of research articles on tobacco addiction. The research states that nicotine is the chemical which maintains the addiction. Nicotine binds to acetylcholine, which is a very abundant neurotransmitter.
The point you make about people being able to quit smoking using vaping is a very valid point. However I think it is more to do with the breaking of the psychological attachment to cigarettes, rather then the chemical attachment that a person has to smoking.
I don't have any children, and can't speak as a parent. But if my younger brothers/sisters started smoking, my advice to them would be to switch and start vaping.
Adolescent smoking/drinking/drug use behaviour is influence by peers/peer groups. Vaping has the potential to reach groups of people who have never smoked or taken a drug before. For this reason the material circulated on vaping needs to be moderated for age appropriateness. It would be tragic to allow anyone who isn't already addicted to nicotine to develop the habit. I hope you can see this point of view.
I have access to my universities research data base, and I have read through a large amount of research articles on tobacco addiction. The research states that nicotine is the chemical which maintains the addiction. Nicotine binds to acetylcholine, which is a very abundant neurotransmitter.
The point you make about people being able to quit smoking using vaping is a very valid point. However I think it is more to do with the breaking of the psychological attachment to cigarettes, rather then the chemical attachment that a person has to smoking.
I don't have any children, and can't speak as a parent. But if my younger brothers/sisters started smoking, my advice to them would be to switch and start vaping.
Adolescent smoking/drinking/drug use behaviour is influence by peers/peer groups. Vaping has the potential to reach groups of people who have never smoked or taken a drug before. For this reason the material circulated on vaping needs to be moderated for age appropriateness. It would be tragic to allow anyone who isn't already addicted to nicotine to develop the habit. I hope you can see this point of view.
The thing is for me azzaman, is I don't see teens who never smoked before developing "The Habit" a bad thing at all if done by vaping instead of smoking.
Too much emphesis is being placed on this " cant let kids get this bad habit" idea - I could see it IF vaping was harmful to teens but it's not. Vaping is not any more dangerous than thousands of other legal substances teens consume everyday.
We tend to still have this idea hanging on that nicotine addiction is a bad thing. That comes from years of indoctrination of nicotine being associated with cigarette smoking - which we all know is a bad thing.
Nicotine addiction is Only Bad in cigarettes because it causes the person to inhale harmful smoke.
Take sugar. Sugar is very addictive and causes tons of health problems - yet because it's legal and is used in just about everything it does not have any negative stigma associated with it they way smoking and nicotine does.
Yet, if I say to a person, hey, your kid is addicted to sugar, you need to go get major help for that kid right away - they would look at me like i'm crazy.
Nicotine in the form we use in e-cigs is the same way. So a kid or teen develops a mild physical addiction to nicotine. So what. Big freaking hairy deal. They choose to do it. They accept the risks. That nicotine use from an e-cig is keeping that kid from klilling themselves by smoking tobacco - and it's not harming them any worse than a lot of other things they consume.
I honestly don't see the harm in it.
This said, of course we don't want to target teens who have never smoked. Yes, some teens will see videos not geared to them and choose to try vaping. They are doing that now anyway whether we target them or not. This info is all over the net, the news, this forum which can be read by anyone. My making a video encouraging teens who smoke to try vaping is not going to cause any leap in that which is already being done.
BTW your contradicting youself. You site the research you have done stating that nicotine is the main addictive substance in cigarettes that causes addiction then you agree with me that vapers quit easier for psychological reasons - not the physical addiction. Which is it.. is nicotine really that strong/ physically addicting or isn't it?
I believe the studies you read talk about a measurement of nicotine's addictive properties and not an over all accounting of what truly makes cigarettes addictive. What happens is people, scientists even, assume that nicotine is largely to blame for addiction to cigarettes and so they study nicotne. They do not study nicotine in conjunction with the 4000 other chemicals found in cigarette smoke to see how this effects addiction. No one has ever done that study because it would be almost imposible to do. I believe there is cause to see how many of those studies can be flawed.
Even in other forms of nicotine use like snus we see only mild addictive properties as compared to cigarette smoking.
Too much emphesis is being placed on this " cant let kids get this bad habit" idea - I could see it IF vaping was harmful to teens but it's not. Vaping is not any more dangerous than thousands of other legal substances teens consume everyday.
We tend to still have this idea hanging on that nicotine addiction is a bad thing. That comes from years of indoctrination of nicotine being associated with cigarette smoking - which we all know is a bad thing.
Nicotine addiction is Only Bad in cigarettes because it causes the person to inhale harmful smoke.
Take sugar. Sugar is very addictive and causes tons of health problems - yet because it's legal and is used in just about everything it does not have any negative stigma associated with it they way smoking and nicotine does.
Yet, if I say to a person, hey, your kid is addicted to sugar, you need to go get major help for that kid right away - they would look at me like i'm crazy.
Nicotine in the form we use in e-cigs is the same way. So a kid or teen develops a mild physical addiction to nicotine. So what. Big freaking hairy deal. They choose to do it. They accept the risks. That nicotine use from an e-cig is keeping that kid from klilling themselves by smoking tobacco - and it's not harming them any worse than a lot of other things they consume.
I honestly don't see the harm in it.
This said, of course we don't want to target teens who have never smoked. Yes, some teens will see videos not geared to them and choose to try vaping. They are doing that now anyway whether we target them or not. This info is all over the net, the news, this forum which can be read by anyone. My making a video encouraging teens who smoke to try vaping is not going to cause any leap in that which is already being done.
BTW your contradicting youself. You site the research you have done stating that nicotine is the main addictive substance in cigarettes that causes addiction then you agree with me that vapers quit easier for psychological reasons - not the physical addiction. Which is it.. is nicotine really that strong/ physically addicting or isn't it?
I believe the studies you read talk about a measurement of nicotine's addictive properties and not an over all accounting of what truly makes cigarettes addictive. What happens is people, scientists even, assume that nicotine is largely to blame for addiction to cigarettes and so they study nicotne. They do not study nicotine in conjunction with the 4000 other chemicals found in cigarette smoke to see how this effects addiction. No one has ever done that study because it would be almost imposible to do. I believe there is cause to see how many of those studies can be flawed.
Even in other forms of nicotine use like snus we see only mild addictive properties as compared to cigarette smoking.
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And again in one post you say
But in another
Huh?
I seriously hope you're not a parent, or if you are then I hope you are open to change enough to back up and have another look at what nicotine might in fact do to kids that it doesn't do to adults. You heard me right. Start with the very fair article on Wikipedia about Nicotine, particularly the part about Dopamine Receptors under Dependence and withdrawal. Then follow the link to the reference cited. Children grow both physiologically as well as well as psychologically and until they're done they're particularly susceptible to alteration (good & bad) from external influence.
Would you risk it with your children, or would you do the responsible adult thing and try to stop them from making choices that they are not yet old enough to properly evaluate on their own? Adults ARE morally and legally responsible for minors for very sound reasons. I personally raised my kids to try to understand when they can't make informed choices on their own, and err on the side of caution by taking an experienced person's word until they can fully understand. In a few cases I had to simply lay it out like it was going to be, period. Fairness unfortunately isn't an option if it gets to that point. I certainly wouldn't watch or help them use nicotine, caffeine, alcohol or play with guns until they could evaluate the risk vs benefits and were mature enough to do it with competence. After that they are on their own for better or worse.
Just my opinion.
Geeze.
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"BTW your contradicting youself. You site the research you have done stating that nicotine is the main addictive substance in cigarettes that causes addiction then you agree with me that vapers quit easier for psychological reasons - not the physical addiction. Which is it.. is nicotine really that strong/ physically addicting or isn't it?"
I don't believe I contradicted myself. Addiction is a complicated mix of both the psychological and physiological. The physiological component is nicotine, it is the psychoactive substance that creates physical cravings. The psychological is the smoke, feel, memories, taste and everything else we attribute to our old love of analogs, which is addictive also.
When you vape you break that psychological addiction (sort of, you just transfer it), vaping is different to smoking cigarettes. But not everyone quits smoking and not everyone quits vaping. The argument I made was that the psychological attachment to vaping would be easier to break. Therefore probably more likely to allow people to quit, but you are still dealing with the nicotine part of addiction.
The point I made about ex smokers, was that they still get cravings. This is long after the attachments are broken. I believe this is testimony to the long term effects of nicotine on the brain. A permanent chemical change occurs. This may explain why the relapse rate for smokers is so high.
"They do not study nicotine in conjunction with the 4000 other chemicals found in cigarette smoke to see how this effects addiction."
They do study these chemicals, this is why we know what they are, and how they cause cancer. The point scientists make is that nicotine keeps you addicted while 4000 chemicals breakdown your body and create a list of user specific diseases.
I don't believe I contradicted myself. Addiction is a complicated mix of both the psychological and physiological. The physiological component is nicotine, it is the psychoactive substance that creates physical cravings. The psychological is the smoke, feel, memories, taste and everything else we attribute to our old love of analogs, which is addictive also.
When you vape you break that psychological addiction (sort of, you just transfer it), vaping is different to smoking cigarettes. But not everyone quits smoking and not everyone quits vaping. The argument I made was that the psychological attachment to vaping would be easier to break. Therefore probably more likely to allow people to quit, but you are still dealing with the nicotine part of addiction.
The point I made about ex smokers, was that they still get cravings. This is long after the attachments are broken. I believe this is testimony to the long term effects of nicotine on the brain. A permanent chemical change occurs. This may explain why the relapse rate for smokers is so high.
"They do not study nicotine in conjunction with the 4000 other chemicals found in cigarette smoke to see how this effects addiction."
They do study these chemicals, this is why we know what they are, and how they cause cancer. The point scientists make is that nicotine keeps you addicted while 4000 chemicals breakdown your body and create a list of user specific diseases.
I don't have a crystal ball and can't see into the future. But if vaping is proven to be 100% safe, nicotine is proven to be mildly addictive (like sugar and caffeine) and that nicotine doesn't harm a developing brain, then you are right and there is nothing to worry about.
The thing that does get left out of these debates is the health benefits of nicotine (the unhealthy part is its effect on the heart). Nicotine has the potential to be used as a weight loss product, improve cognition for those suffering from dementia and increase reaction time, concentration and short term memory. Nicotine reduces stress yet increases alertness.
These things are all great, but until the crystal ball points are fully explored we have to treat any 'healthy' delivery system for nicotine with some caution, especially for those who are more vulnerable to be influenced and for those we owe a duty of care.
The thing that does get left out of these debates is the health benefits of nicotine (the unhealthy part is its effect on the heart). Nicotine has the potential to be used as a weight loss product, improve cognition for those suffering from dementia and increase reaction time, concentration and short term memory. Nicotine reduces stress yet increases alertness.
These things are all great, but until the crystal ball points are fully explored we have to treat any 'healthy' delivery system for nicotine with some caution, especially for those who are more vulnerable to be influenced and for those we owe a duty of care.
For the record. I am totally against children vaping and smoking. Teens, starting at age 13 are not children. I see you didn't read all my posts and my thread I linked to, if so you would understand my position already.
I personally will not encourage teens who have never smoked to vape. I don't need to. They are going to get this information all over the place as well as ideas on smoking. I have said yes, do everything you can to discourage the teen not to want to smoke. If you can do this for the rest of your kids life that's great. If a teen makes the conscious choice to try to smoke cigarettes and nothing you say will stop them, then you should encourage them to use an e-cig instead. When I said collateral damage I meant that some teens who are not targeted by vaping videos will make the choice to try vaping. It's simply gonna happen because it comes along with the territory.
At this point you have a choice. Let that teen smoke, let that teen vape or do something unthinkable like doing a nicotine intervention - kidnapping the teen and putting them in a nicotine addiction camp for 6 weeks while people force down the teens throat the dangers of using nicotine. You have to understand these teens made a choice and have accepted the risks of smoking. They already know smoking contributes to heart and lung disease and will most likely kill them one day. They don't care - so they are going to smoke if you don't provide for them a safer alternative. ( providing you cannot talk them out it smoking)
Yeah I agree. And thats how I was raised. We didn't get caffeinated beverages till a certain age. I started smoking early, but my parents did NOT tolerate, and made every move to hinder me. Once I was muchhhh closer to the legal smoking age, and they could see I had zero desire to stop, they stopped the hassling, and understood that I had to make my own choices. And that was there responsibility as adults.
I know I will not be letting my child vape at 13. If he's smoking at 13, chances are he is not fully addicted, and does not need another habit to replace it.
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