Nicotine Comparisons

[Kurt]

Kurt, I apologize for somewhat changing the subject in the thread but I do not know the forum very well yet wanted to ask you some questions about comments you made back on Apr 27, 2010 in the thread https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/long-term-storage-of-concentrated-nic.84321/

In that thread you state that long term Nicotine storage hardly effects nicotine in adverse ways, and I quote......

"The primary reaction is nic reacting with O2. The product is yellow/brown, depending on the concentration. The reaction is limited to the amount of O2 present in the VG or PG, and this amount is generally very low. If the bottle is sealed and not opened, this reaction will stop once the trace O2 has all reacted. This generally equates to a fraction of a % of the total nic amount, but that small amount of oxide product can significantly color the juice."

"Freezer temps will slow this, and I think in the case of VG-only juices, effectively stop it, since VG becomes almost solid at freezer temps."

"Remove O2 (and moisture), and nic will last indefinitely. With cold temps, VG or PG should too. The 24 month expiration for PG or VG is at room temp and exposed to the air."

First I would like to ask if your opinion has changed on this subject after 5 years?

Second, some say that VG breaks down in time, Are you saying it does not break down significantly as long as it is kept in the freezer.

Third, You said "nic will last indefinitely. With cold temps, VG or PG should too." so can I assume if I wanted to store 100mg nicotine base in a freezer for 20 years it should be feasible.

Last, we know that O2, Moisture, Warm Temperatures can cause oxidation and VG will break down at room temperature after time. What are your thoughts on this.......

Breakdown large bottles of 100mg nic base into 250 or maybe 500ml amber bottles. Fill as much as possible so there is as little of oxygen as possible. Literally buy a packaging system for vacuum sealing each bottle just as they do with meats and other products. Then store in the freezer. In your honest opinion how many years would you think that nicotine base would remain useable.........

Thanks so much for your thoughts !!!

A lot of questions here. I'll try to address them all.

#1: My opinion has not changed...and neither has the nic that has been in my freezer for almost 6 years. As far as I can tell.

#2: Freezer slows or stops pretty much any reaction we would be concerned about. So breakdown of VG included. I have not tested my ~6 year old nic to see if the VG is still stable, but I have no reason, either in experience or from my own knowledge, to believe otherwise.

#3 20 years is a long time, but I strongly suspect your nic will be fine. PG nic in the freezer is more liquid, so oxidation may be present after 20 years. But you are asking me to predict a very extreme amount of time when there is no data currently, so YMMV.

#4 What are my thoughts on which factor? I guess keep your nic cold and it will last for a long time. If preservation of nic is the highest priority, then make enough to vape for a few weeks fresh, and leave the rest stored, as concentrated as possible, without water or flavors added. Even at room temp, VG nic does not oxidize quickly. I have a small bottle of unflavored 100 mg VG nic out for months without much changed, as long as it is in dark glass.

You say: "Breakdown large bottles of 100mg nic base into 250 or maybe 500ml amber bottles. Fill as much as possible so there is as little of oxygen as possible. Literally buy a packaging system for vacuum sealing each bottle just as they do with meats and other products."

250 mL bottles are too big for me for storage, unless that is all I have and the mic is simply waiting for more available small bottles to fill for the freezer. I use 50 mL glass bottles, so I only have at most 50 mL or so out for mixing at a given time. I do not fill to the rim, since warming VG causes it to expand. I've filled bottles in my cold kitchen in the winter, to the rim, and they leaked when I brought them out into my warm office in the summer. A few mL of head space is best, IMHO. The amount of O2 is not significant here, and moot if frozen or opened for mixing. Vacuum sealing is fine, but it will not protect against O2, which will diffuse through the plastic over time. It is a good idea in case of breakage during storing, however. Broken glass and 100 mg nic do not mix well if you are exposed to them.

Hope this helps!

 

[ringling]

A lot of questions here. I'll try to address them all.

#1: My opinion has not changed...and neither has the nic that has been in my freezer for almost 6 years. As far as I can tell.

#2: Freezer slows or stops pretty much any reaction we would be concerned about. So breakdown of VG included. I have not tested my ~6 year old nic to see if the VG is still stable, but I have no reason, either in experience or from my own knowledge, to believe otherwise.

#3 20 years is a long time, but I strongly suspect your nic will be fine. PG nic in the freezer is more liquid, so oxidation may be present after 20 years. But you are asking me to predict a very extreme amount of time when there is no data currently, so YMMV.

#4 What are my thoughts on which factor? I guess keep your nic cold and it will last for a long time. If preservation of nic is the highest priority, then make enough to vape for a few weeks fresh, and leave the rest stored, as concentrated as possible, without water or flavors added. Even at room temp, VG nic does not oxidize quickly. I have a small bottle of unflavored 100 mg VG nic out for months without much changed, as long as it is in dark glass.

You say: "Breakdown large bottles of 100mg nic base into 250 or maybe 500ml amber bottles. Fill as much as possible so there is as little of oxygen as possible. Literally buy a packaging system for vacuum sealing each bottle just as they do with meats and other products."

250 mL bottles are too big for me for storage, unless that is all I have and the mic is simply waiting for more available small bottles to fill for the freezer. I use 50 mL glass bottles, so I only have at most 50 mL or so out for mixing at a given time. I do not fill to the rim, since warming VG causes it to expand. I've filled bottles in my cold kitchen in the winter, to the rim, and they leaked when I brought them out into my warm office in the summer. A few mL of head space is best, IMHO. The amount of O2 is not significant here, and moot if frozen or opened for mixing. Vacuum sealing is fine, but it will not protect against O2, which will diffuse through the plastic over time. It is a good idea in case of breakage during storing, however. Broken glass and 100 mg nic do not mix well if you are exposed to them.

Hope this helps!

Kurt Thank you very much for your insight. I would like to ask one more thing of you. May I quote you over on the ELR forum? I actually frequent there and got on here after googling Long Term Nic Storage and your comments came up. Actually so far I like this Forum. Next thing you know I'll never get off the computer cause I can't get off of TWO forums....lol

 

[Kurt]

A bit unbelievable... I do know (as many others) that "pepperness" of nic increases with oxidation. I have nic stored for 1 year in clear plastic bottle, multiple times open. It became much more peppery with time, and I swear I did not add any petroleum products in it.

I think at issue is the possibility that there are residual solvents present in a retail unflavored DIY nic. I do not know if this actually happens, but the most peppery nic I ever had was 2010 MFS, which also had a kind of solvent-like taste and aroma, like heptane. The pepper was too much for even me, but I wouuld have been ok with it if it did not taste so funky. Long ago, and probably solved by now, but that is the source of my thought that pepper might also be from residual extraction solvent. I think that the primary source of pepper is nic-oxides, since the ultra-pure tasteless nics I've had also had no pepper, but this is an educated speculation, and has not been verified experimentally as yet.

As far as I know, VT TH nic, previously called "Pepper", is VTs usual euro nic with O2 bubbled through. The original has no pepper that I can tell, and the pepper of the TH nic is present, but not big, at least to me. But it seems the only difference is the bubbled O2, supporting the oxide = pepper theory.

 

[Kurt]

Kurt Thank you very much for your insight. I would like to ask one more thing of you. May I quote you over on the ELR forum? I actually frequent there and got on here after googling Long Term Nic Storage and your comments came up. Actually so far I like this Forum. Next thing you know I'll never get off the computer cause I can't get off of TWO forums....lol

What is the ELR forum? I've only time for ECF these days. I don't have a problem with you spreading what I say. It is the internet, after all.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I think at issue is the possibility that there are residual solvents present in a retail unflavored DIY nic. I do not know if this actually happens, but the most peppery nic I ever had was 2010 MFS, which also had a kind of solvent-like taste and aroma, like heptane. The pepper was too much for even me, but I wouuld have been ok with it if it did not taste so funky. Long ago, and probably solved by now, but that is the source of my thought that pepper might also be from residual extraction solvent. I think that the primary source of pepper is nic-oxides, since the ultra-pure tasteless nics I've had also had no pepper, but this is an educated speculation, and has not been verified experimentally as yet.

As far as I know, VT TH nic, previously called "Pepper", is VTs usual euro nic with O2 bubbled through. The original has no pepper that I can tell, and the pepper of the TH nic is present, but not big, at least to me. But it seems the only difference is the bubbled O2, supporting the oxide = pepper theory.

Hi Kurt,
I also have a question for you:
Is nicotine miscible with PG and VG?
(it is about recommendations to "shake well before use")

 

[ringling]

What is the ELR forum? I've only time for ECF these days. I don't have a problem with you spreading what I say. It is the internet, after all.

Thank you again. ELR, guess I should not assume you would know, e-Liquid Calculator

 

[Kurt]

Hi Kurt,
I also have a question for you:
Is nicotine miscible with PG and VG?
(it is about recommendations to "shake well before use")

It is miscible with both, but more easily with PG. Once in solution nic should not separate unless you heat it up a lot. Incomplete mixing in VG has been suspected in the past, so some shaking/stirring is not a bad idea. This is especially the case with unthinned VG-nic, although I've not heard about "hot spots" being found in the last few years. It was an issue about 5 years ago. Most vendors completely mix their VG-nics these days, I believe, but stirring before storing is not a bad idea. And many use some water or even ethanol to thin their DIY VG-nic.

 

[Kurt]

Thank you again. ELR, guess I should not assume you would know, e-Liquid Calculator

E-liquid Calculator? I think you pasted the wrong thing here, Ray.

 

[ringling]

Thank you again. ELR, guess I should not assume you would know, e-Liquid Calculator

Let me try again....

E-Liquid Recipes Forum

Apparently it is a no no to link to it. It at least got the name right this time ...

 

[mhertz]

Kurt, could you also please answer a question for me, please... (lol, you're getting bombarded by requests...)

I haven't stocked up in my freezer yet, because I cannot decide which is best for long term storage;

I have 2 vendors with nice nic from same source(alchem). One is 72mg vg, the other is 100mg vg. The 72mg is actually cheaper pr. mg. when ordering in bulk, but 100mg would be nice for lesser space taken in freezer.

What would be best for long term storage; 72mg or 100mg or is it irrelevant. I'm thinking since there's more vg in the 72mg vs the 100mg, then there are more disolved o2 present?

Secondly, I was simply going to buy the 100mg, but the issue gets obscured by the fact that the 100mg features 5% added water, whereas the 72mg dosen't feature any added water.

Btw, to my surprice, the vendor which adds water says that it's also to lessen oxidation, since more viscus liquids entraps more air bubbles during the initial blending/bottling process. I could see that to be true, but then when comparing to the extra o2 of the water, then I don't know if the total o2 amount is lessened or hightened in the end.

TL;DR; 72mg vs 100mg(+5% water) vg for best long term freezer storage, in your openion...

Thanks in advance!

 

[Exchaner]

If I remember my chemistry correctly, water does not emit any oxygen even if it is part of its formula. The oxygen is tightly bound to the two atoms of Hydrogen and can not escape. Water does absorb some oxygen from the air, but it is minuscule and escapes over time. HTH.

 

[ringling]

to my surprice, the vendor which adds water says that it's also to lessen oxidation, since more viscus liquids entraps more air bubbles during the initial blending/bottling process. I could see that to be true

This surprises me as well. By chance did they say they only add water to VG base nic, or both PG and VG based nic. One thing I have learned about VG is that it can become kinda dry (i guess that is tasting since it's not literally dry). It is recommended to put a few drops of distilled water in the VG to hydrate. The VG will literally absorb every bit of the DW, and, my GUESS is give off any of the O2 it contains in the process. As I said, just a guess. If @Exchaner is correct then there will not be anything to emit.....

 

[mhertz]

Thanks Exchaner, I didn't knew that! Anyway, it does reduce viscosity, and viscosity is the single thing vg has going for it compared to pg oxidation-wise...

I'm in doubt if I should buy for starters, 2L 100mg vg or 3L 72mg vg, and I cannot decide! I'm always like that btw, can never make up my mind about something in general! At 3mg / 10ml per day that should already last pretty long I guess... Nic in the EU is about 5 times more expensive than in the states, when including shipping, compared to e.g. mfs/ecx prices...

Ray Ingling, yeah it's only the vg they add water to, since the viscosity of pg is much lower by default. He stated:

Hi Martin

The answer to your question is that both VG and Nicotine diluted in VG contain 5% water. The reason for adding water is to increase work ability of the products.
Especially for the nicotine bases, this is important since viscous liquids tent to entrap more air (air bubbles) during mixing. This natural phenomenon yields to a faster oxidation of nicotine.
As I mentioned in other articles, oxidation does NOT affect the strength of nicotine. It only alters the color. However, consumers tend to prefer the product to be as clear as possible.
This is the reason that we use Modified Atmosphere Packing, in order to reduce the rate of oxidation.

Yes there is a change between PG and VG. PG has a slightly greater shelf life than VG.

If you need any other information, please feel free to contact me again.

Regards

Angelos

 

[ringling]

Thanks Exchaner, I didn't knew that! Anyway, it does reduce viscosity, and viscosity is the single thing vg has going for it compared to pg oxidation-wise...

I'm in doubt if I should buy for starters, 2L 100mg vg or 3L 72mg vg, and I cannot decide! I'm always like that btw, can never make up my mind about something in general! At 3mg / 10ml per day that should already last pretty long I guess... Nic in the EU is about 5 times more expensive than in the states also when including shipping...

Ray Ingling, yeah it's only the vg they add water to, since the viscosity of pg is much lower by default. He stated:

Yeah, I figured as much. Doubt PG would absorb DW so easily. I'm betting Kurt is gonna tell ya go with the 100mg. I kinda gathered that in something he said. Not seeing it now, may have been in his post I found that was 5 years old.....

 

[Exchaner]

Thanks Exchaner, I didn't knew that! Anyway, it does reduce viscosity, and viscosity is the single thing vg has going for it compared to pg oxidation-wise...

I'm in doubt if I should buy for starters, 2L 100mg vg or 3L 72mg vg, and I cannot decide! I'm always like that btw, can never make up my mind about something in general! At 3mg / 10ml per day that should already last pretty long I guess...

VG is more viscous than PG, even with the added water. It takes 20% of water to bring VG to the same viscosity of PG.
Depending on how old you are, at the level of 3mg, either choice should last you a lifetime - 72mg or 100mg - therefore I would go with the lower cost.

 

[mhertz]

Yes, 24-25% water into vg should be same viscosity as pg, I know, but I just meant that the higher the viscosity, the better, as I have learnt it... (and not that vg with 5% water wasen't better than pg...)

Btw, i'm 35, so still not enough for a complete life-time, if i'm so lucky...

 

[Exchaner]

Btw, i'm 35, so still not enough for a complete life-time, if i'm so lucky...

If my math is correct, 1 liter of 100 mg should last you around 18 years - assuming you vape 5 ml's per day. By the time you finish 2 liters You will be 71 years old. How do you know you will still be vaping?

 

[mmsjs5]

It's better to have and not need than to need and not have.

 

[mhertz]

I vape about 10ml's a day... Of course I cannot tell the future, but i'm thinking to vape as long as i breath

 

[beckdg]

I vape about 10ml's a day... Of course I cannot tell the future, but i'm thinking to vape as long as i breath

I'm working on a way to breathe strictly nic base.

Being a nic based life form and all...

Tapatyped