FINALLY! A REAL Clinical Trial on e-cigs!

[Vocalek]

I can envision some/many e-cigarette prohibitionists and critics doing a 180 degree reversal of their views (as some of these folks would begin advocating e-cigarettes as smoking cessation aids if a clinical trial found them to be more effective than the patch).

"From your mouth to God's ear."

One issue that the study's results would not resolve, however, would be the legal/regulatory policies for e-cigarette sales in various countries (as many new e-cigarette advocates would still argue that e-cigarettes should only be permitted to be marketed as "smoking cessation aids").

Bill: How can we get across to these dunderheads that "nicotine cessation" has an adverse effect on "smoking cessation"? God forbid that Dr. Bullen conducts this trial with the usual design: Discontinue product use after a specified amount of "treatment time" and then watch a good percentage of the test subjects relapse to smoking.

But here is the US, this study (coupled with a victory by SE/njoy over FDA in the lawsuit) could become a enormous boost for e-cigarette sales and public approval.

Amen.

 

[Koman]

I can envision some/many e-cigarette prohibitionists and critics doing a 180 degree reversal of their views (as some of these folks would begin advocating e-cigarettes as smoking cessation aids if a clinical trial found them to be more effective than the patch).

I really hope this happens as well! It's time already!

 

[Sardonic]

I'm one of those who didn't go for e-cigs to quit smoking. I went to them to quit hemorrhaging my hard earned money from the overtaxed revenue source that is the analog. That and the cleanliness benefits.

I think this study is ok, but I hope they don't just stop at studying for cessation.
I have no intention on quitting vaping (barring any remarkable evidence of additional harm)and I have found that nicotine no longer matters to me, but that was a coincidental result of smoking 0nic juices and realizing I just want to taste something all the time.
I think it's great if people use this instead of the "accepted" methods of cessation, but I hope it doesn't decrease acceptance or harm the cause by people (read uninitiated) looking at this as a fad, failed cessation gimick, alternative illegal substance medium, or some other extremist views that I'm sure will surface.

Education is the only cure to the common man- Sardonic

 

[bjc]

16mg strength would be useless for me and I'm several months in. I have never met anyone who would find 16mg liquid of any use (at first) though there must be someone somewhere, of course.

This keeps getting bandied about, and I disagree completely. If the smokers are gauged for current habits and the success rate is correlated with their smoking habit then you can have useful figures.

With those data correlated future research can build on it and determine efficacy of various nicotine strengths vs. smoking habit. With those data correlated even-more-future research can try to determine why some people manage to quit all together and some still reach for analogs.

Research builds on research. It's all about controlling as many variables as you can to get good data, using those good data as a starting point for other variable controlled research, and eventually building up real scientific knowledge.

 

[bassnut]

Originally Posted by rolygate
16mg strength would be useless for me and I'm several months in. I have never met anyone who would find 16mg liquid of any use (at first) though there must be someone somewhere, of course.

This keeps getting bandied about, and I disagree completely. If the smokers are gauged for current habits and the success rate is correlated with their smoking habit then you can have useful figures.

With those data correlated future research can build on it and determine efficacy of various nicotine strengths vs. smoking habit. With those data correlated even-more-future research can try to determine why some people manage to quit all together and some still reach for analogs.

Research builds on research. It's all about controlling as many variables as you can to get good data, using those good data as a starting point for other variable controlled research, and eventually building up real scientific knowledge.

Everybody's different. Needs and expectations vary widely. For some people it's the nicotine first and the "act" of smoking (vaping) 2nd.
For others it's the exact opposite and they'll move to lower or even "0" nicotine content very quickly.
I started out a 24 mg about 4 months ago. Now I use 10mg (nhaler).
A long time vaper posted the other day that for sure he'd be back on analogs if it wasn't for his 36mg e-liquid.....after I had posted my opinion that nobody needs to vape nicotine concentrations that high and why do they sell it etc. Turned out I was wrong.

 

[yvilla]

A long time vaper posted the other day that for sure he'd be back on analogs if it wasn't for his 36mg e-liquid.....after I had posted my opinion that nobody needs to vape nicotine concentrations that high and why do they sell it etc. Turned out I was wrong.

You sure were wrong. It's nearly two years for me, and no way am I interested in using anything lower than 36 mg liquid.

Everybody's different. Needs and expectations vary widely.

Now you've got it!

 

[rothenbj]

You sure were wrong. It's nearly two years for me, and no way am I interested in using anything lower than 36 mg liquid.



Now you've got it!

That's what the real lesson is in this whole adventure. Nicotine is not as addictive as ...... or crack or...... Except possibly for some people. If those that say they want to get less people smoking (total abstention doesn't really seem possible by what I've encountered) they better start listening to those that have been there.

You can get some people totally off everything, just with the beauty of the PV and the various flavors (no children comment please), others need that nicotine and others need the other benefits of tobacco. If they haven't realized by now, they are not doing a good job of getting to where they want to be using their methods.

The youth are replacing the dead almost one to one and at some point, it may head in the opposite direction. After all I've read, there are some hard core smokers out there that won't quit until their last breath. Longevity certainly isn't everyone's goal, the "health" industry doesn't get that fact.

 

[bassnut]

You sure were wrong. It's nearly two years for me, and no way am I interested in using anything lower than 36 mg liquid.



Now you've got it!

Yeah... I kind of went about explaining that backwards, didn't I?
....and I get the (our) historical nicotine subject inference. I'm not as stupid as I look...but every bit as I sound.

Has there already been a poll asking how many ml of liquid vaped daily in what nicotine concentration?

I'm only asking because I'm too lazy/tired to look it up. It's 3:10 A.M.

 

[bassnut]

In the interest of science I decided to load up my cart with some 48mg liquid from my refrigerator stash that I bought for mixing but never used.

WOW!

Not being a trained professional, it's an experiment I'll not likely often repeat....but it made it's point.
I get it.

 

[lawnman3]

wow you tryed the 48 mg juice buzz city there would you say it's too much at that rate ? i have tryed 30mg vg it's too much for me i like 12 to 15 mg vg just my style lol lawnman3

 

[bassnut]

wow you tryed the 48 mg juice buzz city there would you say it's too much at that rate ? i have tryed 30mg vg it's too much for me i like 12 to 15 mg vg just my style lol lawnman3

LOL!
No. I definitely don't recommend it. I just wanted to bring the point home for myself of what higher nicotine concentrations can do.
As a point of reference, if you're used to drinking a cup or two of "American" coffee a day and then try a triple espresso...it's sort of like that. I expect to have some interesting dreams tonight....if I sleep at all.

 

[bassnut]

Let me just say, that when your cart leaks with 48mg nicotine liquid...that's some nasty stuff. You don't really want to put yourself in that path if you don't need to.
Those that do have my sympathies.

 

[VD93]

After reading this thread, I contacted them to find out more about the purpose of this study.

Here is the message I sent:

Hello,

I have a fairly simple question regarding your study of the electronic cigarette. Hopefully you can shoot me a quick answer...


Is this study meant to measure smoking cessation, or nicotine cessation?

I have been using the device for a couple of weeks now, and haven't smoked a cigarette since I picked up the e-cig. So I have stopped inhaling the smoke, but I am still getting nicotine (24 mg strength, not 16). Personally it isn't about wanting to stop using nicotine for me, but rather smoking and the adverse effects it causes. I think that is an important distinction that you should be a bit more clear on in your study. Many e-cig users are watching for your results and while we are very happy to see a serious study, we are a bit concerned that rather than focusing on the actual act of inhaling "smoke" vs inhaling "vapor", this study might be focusing on the ability of e-cigs to stop nicotine addiction. Could you please let us all know which of these your study is focusing on?

Thank you,
Kenny (12 days smoke-free with no cravings)

This morning, I awoke to the following response:

Dear Kenny
Thanks for your enquiry.

I'm pleased to hear that you have found e-cigarettes helpful in weaning
off tobacco cigarettes.

This seems to be a very common experience, so for me that's a good enough
reason to apply a scientific approach to measure how effective
e-cigarettes are at helping smokers to quit tobacco cigarettes. That is
the primary aim of our trial.

We will also measure if changes in dependence on nicotine occur along with
many other things such as cravings and withdrawal symptoms, acceptability
and ease of use, and adverse effects. But these are of secondary interest.
the main thing we are interested in is quitting smoking. Tobacco smoke
is what kills people, not nicotine.

We will be following the participants for 6 months after the day they stop
smoking cigarettes and start their e-cigarettes.

The study will get underway in earnest in early 2011 and run over about 18
months.

I hope this answers your questions.

Best wishes for a smokefree future

Chris


Associate Professor Chris Bullen
Principal Investigator, ASCEND study
Director, Clinical Trials Research
National Institute of Health Innovation
The University of Auckland

 

[BababooeyHTJ]

wow you tryed the 48 mg juice buzz city there would you say it's too much at that rate ? i have tryed 30mg vg it's too much for me i like 12 to 15 mg vg just my style lol lawnman3

I've been at 12mg for a couple of month or so myself. I just cut back to 8mg a couple of days ago. Even 24mg is too much for me and I used to smoke two packs a day.

 

[yvilla]

We will also measure if changes in dependence on nicotine occur along with many other things such as cravings and withdrawal symptoms, acceptability and ease of use, and adverse effects. But these are of secondary interest. the main thing we are interested in is quitting smoking. Tobacco smoke is what kills people, not nicotine.

Best wishes for a smokefree future

Chris

Associate Professor Chris Bullen
Principal Investigator, ASCEND study
Director, Clinical Trials Research
National Institute of Health Innovation
The University of Auckland

VD93, I really like that answer you got! Thanks for sharing it.

 

[kristin]

VD93, I really like that answer you got! Thanks for sharing it.

+1

Thanks!!

 

[whiskey]

On the topic ..I can't wait to see how this study turns out...I hope the op will post results..

 

[VD93]

I can't wait to see the results either... But It's gonna be a couple of years apparently, so I guess we will all just have to wait and see.

 

[VD93]

And BTW- You are both very welcome. I was just really curious about it. I was happy to get the response I did myself!

 

[cigarbabe]

After reading this thread, I contacted them to find out more about the purpose of this study.

Here is the message I sent:

Hello,

I have a fairly simple question regarding your study of the electronic cigarette. Hopefully you can shoot me a quick answer...


Is this study meant to measure smoking cessation, or nicotine cessation?

I have been using the device for a couple of weeks now, and haven't smoked a cigarette since I picked up the e-cig. So I have stopped inhaling the smoke, but I am still getting nicotine (24 mg strength, not 16). Personally it isn't about wanting to stop using nicotine for me, but rather smoking and the adverse effects it causes. I think that is an important distinction that you should be a bit more clear on in your study. Many e-cig users are watching for your results and while we are very happy to see a serious study, we are a bit concerned that rather than focusing on the actual act of inhaling "smoke" vs inhaling "vapor", this study might be focusing on the ability of e-cigs to stop nicotine addiction. Could you please let us all know which of these your study is focusing on?

Thank you,
Kenny (12 days smoke-free with no cravings)

This morning, I awoke to the following response:

Dear Kenny
Thanks for your enquiry.

I'm pleased to hear that you have found e-cigarettes helpful in weaning
off tobacco cigarettes.

This seems to be a very common experience, so for me that's a good enough
reason to apply a scientific approach to measure how effective
e-cigarettes are at helping smokers to quit tobacco cigarettes. That is
the primary aim of our trial.

We will also measure if changes in dependence on nicotine occur along with
many other things such as cravings and withdrawal symptoms, acceptability
and ease of use, and adverse effects. But these are of secondary interest.
the main thing we are interested in is quitting smoking. Tobacco smoke
is what kills people, not nicotine.

We will be following the participants for 6 months after the day they stop
smoking cigarettes and start their e-cigarettes.

The study will get underway in earnest in early 2011 and run over about 18
months.

I hope this answers your questions.

Best wishes for a smokefree future

Chris


Associate Professor Chris Bullen
Principal Investigator, ASCEND study
Director, Clinical Trials Research
National Institute of Health Innovation
The University of Auckland

I think it's super that you sent a message and received a response which bolsters the facts already in evidence, namely that smoke kills people and nicotine does not!
Sadly on other "quit smoking forums" they believe the opposite is true, and that nicotine
causes heart attacks and lung cancer which is preposterous.
C.B.