Help: Which Battery: Samsung INR18650-20R or Sony US18650V3 ?

[tenshi]

Well, I learned something today. Thanks for pointing out that the Sony US18650V3 is an IMR which I was able to confirm here: AkkuDB. That information changes my former recommendation. I'm perplexed about which of the two choices is a better/safer battery for sub ohm. Either battery should perform safely if used under normal vaping situations. But sub ohms place added power demands on batteries.

On one hand, high drain IMR's with a higher cont. max. discharge rate are recommended for use for sub ohm use. The Sony now fits into that category.

And on the other hand, the Samsung has twice the cont. max. discharge as the Sony, so does that make it a safer choice for sub ohms, despite its Li Ion chemistry? I've seen no info that the Samsung is protected, so is it safe to use in a mech mod in a high demand use?



Battery manufacturers and vendors need to do a better job of listing battery chemistry and battery class, and provide specifications for said batteries in the product description.

Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable battery experts can add to this discussion?

I am not a battery expert but as far as your question to whether Samsung having twice the cont. max. discharge as the Sony would make it safer or not... I think the answer is no, if it based on the number of cont. max. discharge. The only time it would be safer, I believe is if you're using sub-ohms so low that it's pushing the IMR batteries to the limit, but even then probably not. The way I look at it, my thoughts on safety each time I press a mod's button is, if and when a battery goes rogue, will it explode and remove my face? Will the Samsung INR be explosive if by chance that it goes rogue? I know the IMRs will not explode... Hence, for now, I believe IMRs are more safe.

I don't know if I explained it right but that's just my opinion on what is safer or not. I really hope that someone can tell us all about the INR chemistry, and let us know that INR is indeed safe chemistry, like the IMRs.

 

[Baditude]

I am not a battery expert but as far as your question to whether Samsung having twice the cont. max. discharge as the Sony would make it safer or not... I think the answer is no, if it based on the number of cont. max. discharge. The only time it would be safer, I believe is if you're using sub-ohms so low that it's pushing the IMR batteries to the limit, but even then probably not. The way I look at it, my thoughts on safety each time I press a mod's button is, if and when a battery goes rogue, will it explode and remove my face? Will the Samsung INR be explosive if by chance that it goes rogue? I know the IMRs will not explode... Hence, for now, I believe IMRs are more safe.

I don't know if I explained it right but that's just my opinion on what is safer or not. I really hope that someone can tell us all about the INR chemistry, and let us know that INR is indeed safe chemistry, like the IMRs.

You explained yourself well, Tenshi. I can't find fault with any of your logic.

The fact that the us18650vct3 1600mAh 30A has such a low mAh rating is typical for an IMR or hybrid battery in general. Compared to cobalt-based protected NCR li-ions which have a far larger mAh rating in general. But this is just conjucture on my part. At any rate, this battery should at least be safer than a protected NCR/INR li-ion battery. Whether its' chemistry is as safe as an IMR remains to be seen.

 

[Mr343]

I am not a battery expert but as far as your question to whether Samsung having twice the cont. max. discharge as the Sony would make it safer or not... I think the answer is no, if it based on the number of cont. max. discharge. The only time it would be safer, I believe is if you're using sub-ohms so low that it's pushing the IMR batteries to the limit, but even then probably not. The way I look at it, my thoughts on safety each time I press a mod's button is, if and when a battery goes rogue, will it explode and remove my face? Will the Samsung INR be explosive if by chance that it goes rogue? I know the IMRs will not explode... Hence, for now, I believe IMRs are more safe.

I don't know if I explained it right but that's just my opinion on what is safer or not. I really hope that someone can tell us all about the INR chemistry, and let us know that INR is indeed safe chemistry, like the IMRs.

I look at this the same way... I would rather not have a bomb in my hand if it were to decide that today is "the day"

 

[Juicy jay]

Does anyone know if american suppliers carry samsung inr18650 20R 2000mah batteries and which one has them? My FT order got sent back...

 

[Baditude]

Does anyone know if american suppliers carry samsung inr18650 20R 2000mah batteries and which one has them? My FT order got sent back...

Samsung INR18650-20R 2000mAh - Kidney Puncher

It is also frequently seen on Amazon and EBay but insure that the vendor has a high rating and guarantees the batteries are authentic.

 

[zacherychristopher]

I bought a set of them off of Ebay...they look legit, the seems are seemed (gooder english I know) and everything looks legit and in order, but it says it is a 2250 mah battery with a 20 amp discharge on the "extra" label they have on it for shipping so I am not sure if I got the legit deal or if it is just the best fake ever....I can't find any fault with it from any picture I have seen and it charged and works fine so I guess time will tell...any help out there? If the factory stamping and the wrap looks perfect it should be legit right? I thought I had the real thing and now I saw that Kidney puncher link I am confused. The samsung factory printing is the same, they just advertised the mah/max amp rate backwards.

 

[Rader2146]

Does anyone know if american suppliers carry samsung inr18650 20R 2000mah batteries and which one has them? My FT order got sent back...

Not American, but I got mine here: HID Battery Samsung 20A 18650 20R INR18650 20R 2000mAh 3 6V Li ion Rechargeable | eBay

The performance tells me that they are the real thing...on the minute chance that they are not, they would be DAMN good fakes.

 

[zacherychristopher]

Not American, but I got mine here: HID Battery Samsung 20A 18650 20R INR18650 20R 2000mAh 3 6V Li ion Rechargeable | eBay

The performance tells me that they are the real thing...on the minute chance that they are not, they would be DAMN good fakes.

Lol, I feel the same way about mine. I think they are the right thing and just labeled wrong cause they look even better than the batteries in that picture (athentic wise,) and whoever sold them just added a few mah to their typed up sticker label to sell some batteries. I guess time will tell, either way it was only I think a buck or two more to get them from an american vendor and they work and I am happy so far .

"if it looks like a duck, and floats like a duck.....it must be a witch!"
Thanks again and happy vapind!

 

[zacherychristopher]

tried to delete this and couldn't figure out how...dont even know how i double posted but accidents happened...maybe someone smarter than me with how this works will delete for me...sorry

 

[Nikkita6]

Samsung INR's are ultra high drain batteries, and are most commonly used in heavy duty power tool applications ( most notably in battery packs such as Milwaukee's M12 Red lithium battery pack), they perform well in extreme weather conditions, both cold and hot, and are considered a safer chemistry battery, as they would have to be considering their usual application use (we can't have construction workers blowing their faces off left and right now can we?) ... Based on test reviews that I have read, the Samsung INR18650-20R performed better than AW IMR 18650 1600mah in applications requiring 10A or more ... Samsung's are also not known to explode in the case of battery failure. Samsung has an excellent reputation in the world of power tools which is a ultra high drain application, and I feel very safe using them.

 

[tenshi]

Samsung INR's are ultra high drain batteries, and are most commonly used in heavy duty power tool applications ( most notably in battery packs such as Milwaukee's M12 Red lithium battery pack), they perform well in extreme weather conditions, both cold and hot, and are considered a safer chemistry battery, as they would have to be considering their usual application use (we can't have construction workers blowing their faces off left and right now can we?) ... Based on test reviews that I have read, the Samsung INR18650-20R performed better than AW IMR 18650 1600mah in applications requiring 10A or more ... Samsung's are also not known to explode in the case of battery failure. Samsung has an excellent reputation in the world of power tools which is a ultra high drain application, and I feel very safe using them.

I've been trying to find out more information on the INR chemistry in the event of a rogue battery. IMR chemistry is well known and documented to be safer then ICR, but as of yet, I can not find what I'm looking for as far as INR safety. From the reports that I read, INR falls between IMR and ICR in safety, with IMR still being the safest chemistry yet. I would love to see the safety tests on INR batteries, where they intentionally make the battery go into thermal runaway and what the end result is.

I think most people are worried because many do push the limits of a battery by using super low rba ohms (like 0.2 ohms in a mechanical) vs using them in a electronic device with built in protection. Sony also makes a high performance battery UR8650WX which outperform at high the end of all batteries and have a whopping maximum continuous discharging current of 25A and is currently being used in DeWalt power tools so they are hard to find since they are used mainly for power packs. I finally got confirmation that those were IMR based.

Hopefully it's a matter of time that we all can find the answers that we are looking for as far as INR batteries.

 

[Nikkita6]

I've been trying to find out more information on the INR chemistry in the event of a rogue battery. IMR chemistry is well known and documented to be safer then ICR, but as of yet, I can not find what I'm looking for as far as INR safety. From the reports that I read, INR falls between IMR and ICR in safety, with IMR still being the safest chemistry yet. I would love to see the safety tests on INR batteries, where they intentionally make the battery go into thermal runaway and what the end result is.

I think most people are worried because many do push the limits of a battery by using super low rba ohms (like 0.2 ohms in a mechanical) vs using them in a electronic device with built in protection. Sony also makes a high performance battery UR8650WX which outperform at high the end of all batteries and have a whopping maximum continuous discharging current of 25A and is currently being used in DeWalt power tools so they are hard to find since they are used mainly for power packs. I finally got confirmation that those were IMR based.

Hopefully it's a matter of time that we all can find the answers that we are looking for as far as INR batteries.

Sorry for the late reply to this, but I had forgotten about this thread until a member of the Fasttech forums reminded me of it ...

There is still much talk about the safety, and chemistry classification of the Samsung INR18650-20R, which I have already expressed that I believe it to be an IMR battery, based on the information that is available from battery tests, manufacturer spec sheets, and test data, as well as the verified application use for which this battery was intended by the manufacturer.

What we have to keep in mind is that Samsung INR's were neither manufactured, or intended for use by vapers, and I have also "heard" that Samsung does not like that their high drain batteries are being used in vape related applications, so we will be hard pressed to get Samsung to verify anything to satisfy our desire to know.

That being said, we have no choice but to use whatever information IS available to us, as well as our own common sense, reason, and intelligent deduction to ascertain the answers to the questions we have about what this particular line of INR batteries are, which I have done, and am comfortable, and satisfied with my findings. My reply is not intended to convince anyone to substitute my understanding, and beliefs for their own, but rather to offer you the benefit of reviewing the same information that I have so that you may draw your own conclusions as to the chemistry and safety of the Samsung INR's.

When it comes to choosing a suitable battery for vape related applications I rely on published battery tests by a credible source. If I cannot find such a test, I do not buy the battery. The following is a link to a test list of Samsung batteries, in which the tester indicates the battery chemistry for each battery listed, and you will notice that the INR18650-20R is classified as an IMR battery. I consider this tester to be a credible source of information, and I do believe that ECF member Baditude has also previously provided links to this particular tester.. If you wish to view the actual test for any of the Samsung batteries listed, click on the battery name.

You may also use this link to view more tests for other major brands, see the drop box at the top left hand corner of the page.

AkkuDB


Tenshi mentioned " I would love to see the safety tests on INR batteries, where they intentionally make the battery go into thermal runaway and what the end result is. " .. well the best I can do for you is provide a link to the manufacturers published spec sheet for this battery, which does verify the intended use of this battery (power tools) and includes the test results for the following: Overcharge test, External short-circuit test, Reverse charge test, Heating test.

Please note that if you do not have Adobe reader on your computer, you will not be able view this PDF document.

http://www.avacom.cz/Datasheety/Samsung/INR18650-20R.pdf


Lastly, to borrow a bit from Tenshi's last reply, specifically this part: " Sony also makes a high performance battery UR8650WX which outperform at high the end of all batteries and have a whopping maximum continuous discharging current of 25A and is currently being used in DeWalt power tools so they are hard to find since they are used mainly for power packs. I finally got confirmation that those were IMR based. "



I am also familiar with this particular battery, and I am bummed that I too cannot find it for sale however, my point is this ... There should be no surprise that this Sony is also an IMR battery, because just as I have stated with regards to the Samsung INR's, it HAS TO be an IMR safer chemistry because of its intended application which is high drain, high power tools. Do you really believe that major manufacturers of power tools such as Dewalt and Milwaukee would choose anything other than, or less than the "safest" battery for their power tool battery packs? This is where common sense, and reason comes into play.

Most of us (experienced vapers) know, or at least have heard of what can happen with the thermal runaway of just one battery, more specifically an ICR ... can you imagine what then could happen in the event of a thermal runaway within a battery pack? Why would Dewalt or Milwaukee choose an ICR, or any less safe battery for their battery packs, most especially for a high drain, high power application? Easy answer, they wouldn't ... and if they did, I doubt very highly they would still be in business, or have the high name recognition that they do today.

I believe it is safe to assume that both Dewalt and Milwaukee know way more about battery chemistry, and safety than we do. Let us humbly remember that while vaping is our hobby, power tools is THEIR JOB. ;-) ... just sayin.

One last point of intelligent deduction to make ... aside from chemistry, another difference between IMR and ICR batteries is IMR =high currents, ICR = high capacity. Which battery chemistry then, would a high drain application such as power tools call for?

That would be the high current delivery of an IMR battery. I have now confirmed, based on the attached link to Samsungs product specification sheet for the INR18650-20R, that this battery has been specifically manufactured for use in Power Tools, which REQUIRE the high current delivery of an IMR battery. This requirement is a FACT. A high drain application such as a power tool COULD NOT perform with anything less than an IMR battery ....

Just as WE recognize that we need an IMR battery for our high drain vape applications, do you not think that Power Tool manufacturers, and the makers of the batteries that power them, do not know the same?? .... and so I rest my case.

SAMSUNG INR18650-20R IS A ULTRA HIGH DRAIN IMR BATTERY.

 

[SeaNap]

SAMSUNG INR18650-20R is an INR not an IMR.
IMR = lithium manganese oxide cylindrical cell
I = lithium ion
M =manganese oxide cathode
R = round cell type
IMRs are also sometimes called “LiMn2O4” or “LMO” or “Li-Manganese”


INR = lithium iron phosphate cylindrical cell
I = lithium ion
N =nickel/manganese oxide cathode
R = round cell type
INRs are also sometimes called “LiNiMnCoO2” or “NMC”
Differences to note between ICR and IMR:
ICRs have a higher specific energy density than IMRs (higher mAh rating), but also a higher internal resistance and lower peak load current. They also suffer from a lower thermal runaway threshold than IMR at a full 4.2v charge (130–150C°C vs 170–180°C)

And as far as the power tool comparison goes, I am sure that there is some sort of circuitry for short circuit protection in the power tools and that they are not straight unprotected mechanical tools (educated speculation). There is a difference between having short circuit protection (fuse, hot spring, circuitry) and vaping an unprotected high drain battery next to your face.

The AW IMR 1600 performs about as good as the Samsung INR, but has a proven safety record. I am not sure that the little benefit in discharge time (~3min vs ~3.5min @10A) warrants a higher risk chemistry. Until we have better testing results I would stick with the AW's

 

[Nikkita6]

SAMSUNG INR18650-20R is an INR not an IMR.
IMR = lithium manganese oxide cylindrical cell
I = lithium ion
M =manganese oxide cathode
R = round cell type
IMRs are also sometimes called “LiMn2O4” or “LMO” or “Li-Manganese”


INR = lithium iron phosphate cylindrical cell
I = lithium ion
N =nickel/manganese oxide cathode
R = round cell type
INRs are also sometimes called “LiNiMnCoO2” or “NMC”
Differences to note between ICR and IMR:
ICRs have a higher specific energy density than IMRs (higher mAh rating), but also a higher internal resistance and lower peak load current. They also suffer from a lower thermal runaway threshold than IMR at a full 4.2v charge (130–150C°C vs 170–180°C)

And as far as the power tool comparison goes, I am sure that there is some sort of circuitry for short circuit protection in the power tools and that they are not straight unprotected mechanical tools (educated speculation). There is a difference between having short circuit protection (fuse, hot spring, circuitry) and vaping an unprotected high drain battery next to your face.

The AW IMR 1600 performs about as good as the Samsung INR, but has a proven safety record. I am not sure that the little benefit in discharge time (~3min vs ~3.5min @10A) warrants a higher risk chemistry. Until we have better testing results I would stick with the AW's

Your "reasoning", most especially being founded in "assumption", with regard to battery packs, and the batteries used in them is flawed, you could benefit from studying recent tests on Samsung 20R vs AW 1600 (while also taking note to INR's battery chemistry classification), and so your comment has about as much value as the 1 cents you offered with it.

If you are going to take the time to make a comment to the contrary, at least come with something that would in some way substantiate your opinion ... but how do you validate your flawed understanding right?