Other thoughts on Clones/Counterfeits

[forcedfuel50]

I often read in the APV section how US manufacturers (and other European manufacturers) are ripping off customers with their prices and it's implied that somehow US manufacturers are making a killing. Nothing could be further from the reality of US manufacturing. I know that in speaking with some of my peers in the industry, they too are facing many of the financial challenges that all US manufactures are . Even after 5 years in the business and bringing all manufacturing in house to eliminate the middle man, day in and day out, we still face financial challenges to keep our doors open.

In justifying their opinion, they point to the price of Chinese clones/counterfeits. What they fail to realize time and time again is that Chinese manufacturing is often heavily subsidized by their gov't, from the factories and equipment, to materials, labor and even shipping. The Chinese will even sell products at a loss just to gain a market monopoly. You can gain no insight into US production costs by comparing to the Chinese.

The Chinese are also not burdened with the taxes and insurance US Manufactures have. For example, here at Super-T we carry four insurance policies, two required by MN law and the other two required by the leasing companies (Workmans Comp, Propertly Liability, Unemployment and Equipment (fire, theft). Couple that with equipment loan payments, shop rent, Employee wages, Tooling, electricity, product material and subcomponent costs and a myriad of other costs(website,product design, plating, advertising, CC processors, drafting, accountant, engineering etc) and you can start to see the real costs involved in producing just a "round tube".


I wanted to share this email I received just today from a customer that gives you a bit of insight into US manufacturing costs:

"To: Super-T Manufacturing <supertmanufacturing@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: Recent order of a slanted ELA top cap

Well . . . that's awesome. I would have bought one with the cap had they been in stock. Thank you.
I know you probably hear this all the time, but yours is the only high-end mod I've purchased that I don't regret even a little. It's with me all day every day, and I would be lost without it. And from someone who grew up in machine shops and currently works around component manufacturing, your products are fantastically designed and constructed (I asked my machine shop supervisor what it would take for us to make something of this quality and he said a new staff and engineering team, and it would probably cost twice as much). Thanks again.
~Jason
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 13, 2014, at 11:28 AM, Super-T Manufacturing <supertmanufacturing@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thank you, a new center post assembly should do the trick, i'll get one out to you.
Warm Regards,
The Super-T Team
www.supertmanufacturing.com"


So the moral of the story is, please, support your countries manufacturers!

 

[snork]

I appreciate your post. It's amazing that people don't understand such basic common knowledge or if they do, they choose to ignore it.

Personally I don't think I'm in the "Buy American" category for buying American's sake. It's just coincidental that my favorite modmaker is American. There are plenty of awesome devices made around the world and they deserve to be rewarded too. But also for me, "Global economy" doesn't mean bending over and handing our business to an organism which has no concept of individuality.

There seems to be various ways you guys deal with the clone situation. I like your approach best because it mirrors how I would handle it if I were in your position. Other makers embrace (well, embrace is a little too loving, accept) the inevitability and devise other ways of staying in the game, even capitalize because of it.

 

[forcedfuel50]

My biggest beef isn't even the clones/counterfeits, its with those Villainizing US Manufacturers as greedy, money hungry, rip off artists. I honestly think it isn't all intentional. I think maybe some of the misunderstanding comes about as they are lumping in re-sellers/dealers with manufacturers. I can tell you, for those companies who primarily manufacturer and sell their own line of products the profits are far, far less then buying already manufactured goods and re-selling them at a profit. You don't need any of the overhead associated with manufacturing to resell. No shop, no machinery,no designing, no materials, no manufacturing labor. Just buy and re-sell. Maybe those businesses are getting rich(and maybe they aren't either), but strictly manufacturers of small run Mods are not.

 

[snork]

I see, that actually never occurred to me. That people view it strictly from a retail perspective - and that's an uphill battle for sure. Daily I hear people gripe about the price of milk, if only they knew we sell it at a *loss*.

 

[jazon1]

i think in the long run what someone buys will boil down to what they can comfortably afford,from what i have seen both original and clones typically function about the same,with the only difference being the quality of materials and workmanship,while i have always been a fan of purchasing American to try to help support our own country/business. it can be said that i have been guilty of buying foreign to sometimes save hundreds in the short term knowing full well that the items will probably not last as long and will in the end cost more to have replaced just because i was low on liquid funds at the time.

but yea regulations in the country compared to others is crazy i was reading that we have over 80% more business regulations then 5 of the other major country's combined its no wounder why our economy is so bad its cheaper to have things made in other country's and shipped back to the states giving them our jobs and money,its no wounder why the clones can be so much cheaper.

 

[Riverboat]

My biggest beef isn't even the clones/counterfeits, its with those Villainizing US Manufacturers as greedy, money hungry, rip off artists. I honestly think it isn't all intentional. I think maybe some of the misunderstanding comes about as they are lumping in re-sellers/dealers with manufacturers. I can tell you, for those companies who primarily manufacturer and sell their own line of products the profits are far, far less then buying already manufactured goods and re-selling them at a profit. You don't need any of the overhead associated with manufacturing to resell. No shop, no machinery,no designing, no materials, no manufacturing labor. Just buy and re-sell. Maybe those businesses are getting rich(and maybe they aren't either), but strictly manufacturers of small run Mods are not.

And then there are USA companies that run into this issue... Lance at Steam Monkey (USA) had contracted a USA machine shop to produced parts for the HOH Z2 series mods... I own his Link RDA that sits atop my ZNA.. Well made item but he has had a recent run of problems.. I had email him asking if he had any 2 hole caps for the Link RDA.. Here is his reply:

I’ve got a bunch of Links that will be going back in stock soon at a discounted price, the two hole top caps are a different story. I had 300 made, 250 got delivered, 150 of those were faulty, I’m waiting on the machinist to either fix em or send me my money back. At the moment, I’ve got little hope I’ll get either unfortunately. Chances are I’ll be listing the remaining Link stock tonight or tomorrow and just closing it out. I’ve had nothing but bad luck with manufacturing on this stuff.

 

[forcedfuel50]

And then there are USA companies that run into this issue... Lance at Steam Monkey (USA) had contracted a USA machine shop to produced parts for the HOH Z2 series mods... I own his Link RDA that sits atop my ZNA.. Well made item but he has had a recent run of problems.. I had email him asking if he had any 2 hole caps for the Link RDA.. Here is his reply:

I’ve got a bunch of Links that will be going back in stock soon at a discounted price, the two hole top caps are a different story. I had 300 made, 250 got delivered, 150 of those were faulty, I’m waiting on the machinist to either fix em or send me my money back. At the moment, I’ve got little hope I’ll get either unfortunately. Chances are I’ll be listing the remaining Link stock tonight or tomorrow and just closing it out. I’ve had nothing but bad luck with manufacturing on this stuff.

Yep, it's unfortunate. You'll see fewer and fewer US (and European) manufacturers making it. People don't realize the cost involved and then just one bad batch like he had can sink the whole boat. I mentioned this long ago, but the Shockwave we actually lost money on and we broke even on the first batch of ELA's we sold. People see the price and think US Manufacturers are gouging, but we aren't at all, for the majority of manufacturers in the mod market, profits keep our doors open and feed our employees families, not much more.

No doubt I and most people buy Chinese products, that isn't my biggest beef as mentioned above, my beef is some characterizing US manufactures as greedy price gougers when they don't have a grasp of what manufacturing really costs. Gone are the days of cranking out a few mods on a manual lathe in ones garage, it just isn't viable or competitive anymore.

 

[Riverboat]

Yep, it's unfortunate. You'll see fewer and fewer US (and European) manufacturers making it. People don't realize the cost involved and then just one bad batch like he had can sink the whole boat. I mentioned this long ago, but the Shockwave we actually lost money on and we broke even on the first batch of ELA's we sold.

I knew the Shockwave was a nightmare for you, and the first batch of ELA's.. Well lets just say with all those machined parts it came with, I almost felt guilty about the price.. That was a gift on your part...

 

[vaptamist]

Gone are the days of cranking out a few mods on a manual lathe in ones garage, it just isn't viable or competitive anymore.

Haven't you heard? If you do that, you're just trying to create artificial exclusivity to make your product more desirable, because you're a greedy US or EU manufacturer.

 

[Rickajho]

i think in the long run what someone buys will boil down to what they can comfortably afford,from what i have seen both original and clones typically function about the same,with the only difference being the quality of materials and workmanship,while i have always been a fan of purchasing American to try to help support our own country/business. it can be said that i have been guilty of buying foreign to sometimes save hundreds in the short term knowing full well that the items will probably not last as long and will in the end cost more to have replaced just because i was low on liquid funds at the time.

Yeah... that...

I really don't get the financial double standard you see on ECF so many times. The people chasing after the "Where can I get the cheapest possible price on a..." whatever, while decreeing any US supplier or manufacturer charging ten cents more than FT or someone on eBay is "...a total ripoff man!"

So they buy their "...cheapest possible price on a..." thing, break it or it dies in short order, find out they can't get a replacement for the part of their thing that broke - and the cycle starts all over - again and again. Very shortly all that "...cheapest possible price on a..." buying gets to be really expensive. But don't you dare point that out - you will get accused of being a shill for a ripoff artist. Or a fanboi. Or a snob.

Really don't understand the buying cheap is a good thing, just because it's cheap. Especially when it comes to buying batteries and chargers, probably the most critical part of the experience. But hey, if that fake AW battery is a buck cheaper on eBay and if you can get a charger cheap on Amazon that has a running history of repeat failures reported on ECF - cheap is good and everything else is a ripoff right?

No - it isn't. You got it bass ackwards.

 

[vaptamist]

And then you see the same people go crazy for a small bottle of 30$ boutique e-liquid in a fancy package.

 

[vaptamist]

Saw this on another forum - one that loves clones. They refuse to pay more than 30$ for a "simple metal tube", but they'll shell out 1$ a ML for fancy packaged e-liquid with shredded money in the packaging.

 

[snork]

The same guy who did the battery vent video I posted in another thread is also a quite knowledgeable and eloquent machinist. He is doing a video series in which he plans to machine a mod start to finish on a nice manual lathe. In the first video in this series he details the lathe.

 

[HauntedMyst]

The thing is, when it comes to people who buy clones with the justification that it's because of price, you'll never convince them to spend money on the original because they have assuaged their conscience with a lie. Either they 1) can afford it but wont because they want something they don't want to pay for so they feel comfortable convincing themselves intellectual theft is ok or 2) can't afford it and simply refuse to buy a non-clone product. At roughly $150 a month to smoke a pack a day, very few smokers turned vapers can't afford an original mod and atty with a little budget shifting.

 

[LadyMaMa]

What's troubling to me is that some manufacturers are condoning this "theft" as an acceptable pathway to getting the masses away from cigarettes. Those new to vaping don't need a high-end authentic mod or its cheaper "stolen copy" cousin to give up and stay off cigarettes.

Sounds like a marketing ploy to me:
Save your life, buy a clone...and when you're ready, we'll be here for you....
Nah, I don't think so.

 

[forcedfuel50]

I understand some not being able to afford high end mods such as the ELA, I get it, but there are other more affordable non-clones out there and even we here at Super-T have a little surprise up our sleeves for those wanting a genuine, high quality mod for a truly affordable price. Coming very soon...

 

[forcedfuel50]

The thing is, when it comes to people who buy clones with the justification that it's because of price, you'll never convince them to spend money on the original because they have assuaged their conscience with a lie. Either they 1) can afford it but wont because they want something they don't want to pay for so they feel comfortable convincing themselves intellectual theft is ok or 2) can't afford it and simply refuse to buy a non-clone product. At roughly $150 a month to smoke a pack a day, very few smokers turned vapers can't afford an original mod and atty with a little budget shifting.

Well said HauntedMyst.

 

[vaptamist]

I understand some not being able to afford high end mods such as the ELA, I get it, but there are other more affordable non-clones out there and even we here at Super-T have a little surprise up our sleeves for those wanting a genuine, high quality mod for a truly affordable price. Coming very soon...

Hmmm... Very curious!

 

[DoubleEwe]

This 'discussion' seems to be a little one sided so far....

I appreciate that some (original) mod manufacturers do justify the price asked due to:
a) The design being significantly different from other mods
b) The materials used being of higher quality (and actually serving a purpose rather than just being for the sake of it)
c) The product being unique in some other way (hand finished to perfection/each mod with unique engravings/etc etc)

I understand that your USP is the precision of the workmanship/machining, which is hard to replicate without putting in the man hours. This is largely lost on the 'clone buyers', on the whole 'we' would rather pay (a lot) less for a product that is 98% as good as the original. The 2% comes at too steep a price for the majority of vapers, so is reserved for those that are collectors or those that appreciate the craftmanship to a higher degree.

The 'you used to smoke X packs of cigarettes a day, which means you have Y amount to spend a month' argument is a joke, many people switched to vaping because they wanted to reduce the money they were spending on their nicotine addiction (and be 'healthier' in the process). When you factor in the cost of juices the Y value is reduced substantially. Personally I used to roll my own cigarettes which cost me $80 a month or so, juices cost me in the same region per month. Therefore my 'smoking budget' leaves me sweet FA for vaping supplies other than juice.

The intellectual theft issue is a bit strong, no matter how well machined something is it does still boil down to the same simple elements - a tube, a button and a top cap connector. Now if these widely varied from manufacturer to manufacturer then you would have a point, but considering they all use the 510 connection and all use a tube the only other part is the button. Even the button has only 3 different designs, side button, recessed bottom button or protruding bottom button, all of the bottom buttons work in the same way, either using a spring or a magnet (neither of which will be built in house).
So the only part that could be considered theft is the logo, yes, I do believe that it is wrong to replicate someone else's logo. I do however believe that the 'cloners' could (and should) use their own logo design, which is what is starting to happen now.

I do think that a lot of the original manufacturers do not make the most of the potential of their products in terms of selling. Yes I am fully aware that production runs are short due to the size of your manufacturing plant (or workshop), but there are other ways to generate income from your product (and its' design).
1) Have your short run of perfect mods with unique serial numbers and some kind of limited edition engraving
2) Then, using some of the profit from the limited edition pay to get a batch of 'non-limited edition' mods (slightly different design/engraving) manufactured abroad and shipped to you for hand finishing (and QC) and sold as 'standard edition' or something similar. People would likely pay more to get direct from you rather than China, regardless of it being potentially the exact same product as the cloners would make.
3) or Sell/Give the design (slightly modified) to the clone manufacturers and get royalties per clone sold etc. (Not sure what would happen if you approached them about this or if they would put 'authentic' on their listings)

Just my thoughts.

Aside from this, I do not understand why the original mods made in the Philippines are sold for such high prices...

 

[Riverboat]

I understand some not being able to afford high end mods such as the ELA, I get it, but there are other more affordable non-clones out there and even we here at Super-T have a little surprise up our sleeves for those wanting a genuine, high quality mod for a truly affordable price. Coming very soon...

Interesting? How about a surprise for those wanting a genuine, high quality mod for a truly outrageous price. ELA Titanium Edition....