Questions about Nicotine..

[just4747]

Sorta noob questions here:

1.Since the main hazardous substance in e-cigs as well as regular cigs (besides tobacco in regular ones) is nicotine, what happens when you suck the vapor into your mouth and taste the flavor, but only blow it back out and never inhale it into your lungs? Does the nicotine still go into your bloodstream through your mouth/tongue somehow since you still feel that burning on your tongue? Or does this really only happen when you fully inhale into your lungs before blowing out again? How bad is this?

Is there even anything hazardous to your health at all by just sucking the e-cig vapor into your mouth and blowing out and not actually inhaling? Also, how do the answers to these questions differ (if at all) with different strength liquids?

Just trying to get a health effect gauge for a person who might e-smoke but not inhale every time (and that does NOT refer to me..lol). It was sort of a discussion among me and some roommates earlier.

2. Also, how true/possible is the speed-up of existing cancerous cells caused by nicotine as seen in this article?:
http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20060720/nicotine-speeds-lung-cancer
I know e-cigs are supposed to be less dangerous, but things like that still worry me very much.

3. Finally, are e-cigarettes supposed to affect your throat the way regular cigs do? Like sore throat/painful throat after smoking a bunch of times? Does it affect your teeth?

Thanks!

 

[Kimmiegrif]

good questions...I am looking forward for the educated to answer.

 

[just4747]

Thanks, me too. I mean I know some partial answers. Like yes, nicotine is still absorbed just from being in your mouth and not inhaling. But for instance, I don't know how much it is still absorbed and how harmful it is when e-smoking. And I know nicotine can cause heart problems and such but I am just unclear on the differences between the dangers of cigarettes and the danger of e-cigarettes even after reading all about e-smoking. If anyone can answer all/some of any of my first post, I would appreciate it.

Also, to add to the first post, how many chemicals are in e-cig liquid..comparing to the hundreds in cigarettes?

AND (sorry, I can't edit the last post anymore)...

If one can get away with smoking the low strength liquids/carts, is this much healthier/better than smoking med-extra high strength? Is it worth it trying to smoke low level exclusively??

I know that's a lot of questions and they are scattered all over this thread, but I am very anxious to know the answers from you guys.

 

[Kimmiegrif]

just, I vap mostly low an medium. I plan to move to none. I enjoy it all the same. The medium when it is an occassionally ecig to do with the burning tobacco users...or light when I just want to sit and vap for long periods of time, sometimes just enjoying the taste and "not inhaling" as our previous pres put it.

 

[just4747]

Do you notice a difference in taste or feeling between medium and low at all?

 

[Kate]

Nicotine isn't the most dangerous ingredient in cigarettes, it's relatively harmless compared with some of the stuff in them but not completely. It is toxic and can cause circulatory and heart problems, especially in large doses.

Nicotine from cigars and pipes is meant to be absorbed without inhaling into the lungs. The mucus membrane in the mouth allows nicotine to be absorbed. It's not known how effective vapour is at this, we don't know if it's the same type of nicotine or in what quantities.

I haven't read the article you linked but have heard that nicotine might increase the action of carcinogens even though it is not considered to be one itself.

Propylene glycol in vapour can dry your throat and make it sore. Drinking or sucking sweets while esmoking helps with this. Once you get used to the pg you might not get any symptoms.

Esmoking isn't thought to be bad for teeth, it doesn't make your mouth acidic and might even neutralise acid, making it actually good for them.

There is some information on the ingredients in commercial eliquids here - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ngredients-cartridges-e-liquid.html#post34085

I think that it's better for your health to vapourise lower nicotine levels, high levels are apparently not good.

Some people think the taste and throat hit from juice is due to nicotine and some think it's due to flavourings and additives. We don't know yet.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[TropicalBob]

I suggest you not be too frightened of nicotine while e-smoking. E-smokers are taking in a handful of known chemicals, not the thousands in tobacco smoke. That's why most e-smokers believe e-smoking simply has to be safer than cigarette smoking.

But until studies are completed, the only true answer is: We don't know. We are the lab rats for e-smoking. The testing has just gotten underway.

Cigar and pipe smoke (I do both) are absorbed through the mucus membranes in the mouth (the smoke is never inhaled). The PH factor is manipulated for those tobaccos so absorption is more complete. The nic hit is not quick -- like the 7-second response to inhaling a cigarette -- but blood nicotine levels rise and reach the same levels as any tobacco user within about 10 minutes. There is no question that studies have shown cigar and pipe smoking are safer in all respects than inhaling cigarette smoke.

Snus and dip are both absorbed through the mouth. Dip (which requires spitting and is notorious for ruining oral health) is on the way out; snus, in little tea-bag like pouches, is the fastest growing tobacco use segment. I use perhaps 10 snus portions each day, along with dissolvable tobacco bits sold as Stonewall. I highly recommend these. Nicotine from each is absorbed through the mouth.

You can get nicotine through your nasal membranes via nasal snuff (I do that occasionally). And the only cancer ever recorded from nasal snuff was a farmer who put it in his ear! That's transdermal absorption, like a patch, and he got a cancer at the spot where he'd stuffed nasal snuff for about 30 years.

Your lower gastrointestinal tract can absorb ingested nicotine. But poorly. That's why NRT lozenges dissolve, and are not swallowed. Still, a nicotine-laced product called Nicowater was on the market for a short time before the FDA banned it. Nicotine, the FDA said, is not a food ingredient.

And, yes, some bizarre folks have suggested suppositories ...

Nicotine, as you probably know, spikes metabolism, boosting heart rate and blood pressure. That is not good in the long term, and can lead to hardening of the arteries and other circulatory problems. But it's good for your brain - acting as a kind of "normalizer" when a user is either tense or tired.

Finally, new studies do indicate that nicotine, while not being carcinogenic or mutagenic, might act as a kind of fertilizer boost for existing lung cancer cells. If that's true, e-smoking for former smokers is not safe at all.

 

[just4747]

Awesome responses guys. It's just tough to really make a decision in your head on how safe or unsafe everything related to e-smoking is. There's so many threads about PG, nicotine, and e-cig health topics and every other post almost sounds like some people are just trying to make ourselves believe that it's okay and say things like "I'm sure it's fine," and "It can't be that bad" without any hard evidence other than a few test results.
Is there any time frame on when hard, reliable results will be shown by someone after extensive testing? I know that we are just seeing how it goes with us who are doing it now, but there must be in-depth tests going on somewhere using all these products that we all spend so much money on often right? Or do we really just have to wait and see what happens to us basically since the longest people have e-smoked here isn't actually that long at all?

 

[Kate]

There is a collection of known research on this thread - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ated-legal-medical-information.html#post27916

Clinical trials are underway in New Zealand, commissioned by Ruyan. Results are due any time now.

One of our members, Dr Loi, has also been conducting independent trials in Malaysia but he's having some trouble with authorities. I don't know if we'll see any report from that or not.

We really are guinea pigs for long term effects, nobody knows the result of inhaling what we do in the quantities we do for sustained periods.

So far the evidence suggests that esmoking is much safer than smoking, it's up to you to inform yourself and come to your own conclusions. Do you smoke and risk the many known dangers or do you vape and risk an unproven, possibly safer alternative.

 

[TropicalBob]

It's good that you're asking the right questions, 4747, instead of how many puffs per cartridge or where can I get a cheap mini that most looks like a real cig. When WHO meets in November, we'll get an answer -- whether we like it or not -- on whether that global health organization under the United Nations considers e-smoking safe or worthy of further study. Many nations will follow WHO's guidance on this, rather than trying to determine safety and efficacy on their own.

Until then, enjoy what we have at our disposal.

Me? Never put all your apples in one shaky basket. Explore every option to get off and stay off tobacco cigarettes.

 

[Kate]

I was reading on another thread that nicotine is better absorbed in an alkaline environment and was wondering if anyone knows about the acidity of our vapour?

A while back I came across something that said propylene glycol and/or glycerine produce alkaline vapour but I can't find that information again and am beginning to wonder if it's true.

If esmoking vapour is alkaline then it would be definitely good for teeth, it would neutralise acid and allow them more time to remineralise. It would also mean that we absorb even more nicotine in comparison to cigarettes than current like for like, mg for mg, calculations suggest.

 

[jimldk]

I was reading on another thread that nicotine is better absorbed in an alkaline environment and was wondering if anyone knows about the acidity of our vapour?

A while back I came across something that said propylene glycol and/or glycerine produce alkaline vapour but I can't find that information again and am beginning to wonder if it's true.

If esmoking vapour is alkaline then it would be definitely good for teeth, it would neutralise acid and allow them more time to remineralise. It would also mean that we absorb even more nicotine in comparison to cigarettes than current like for like, mg for mg, calculations suggest.

Hi kate...my litmus test shows it to be alkaline in nature with reading from pH 7.8 to 8.5...highest found in E-liquids from E-cig and lowest from Ruyan cart samples...
Incidentally, the fishy / urea smell that found in spoiled samples(which I had some ) is acidic ranging from 6.2 to 6.8....those spoiled sample does not give much vapour..most likely the PG has been oxidised??...still not sure yet but still being investigated...

Hope this info helps....

 

[Kate]

That does help, many thanks Dr Loi.

It's certainly food for thought that we might be absorbing nicotine more efficiently than with cigarettes.

I'll be interested if you discover anything more about the spoiled juice, some people have mentioned bad tastes like that so it might be common enough for concern.

 

[spufmonkey]

Hi everyone Nicotine, is extremely good for you!..don't listen to old people like Kate or Tropical looser..there just treated the wrong way. If Nicotine is so bad, why do they sell it in stores? thank you everyone have a nice day. happy smoking

i can see a ban coming someone's way soon!

 

[shawnp1]

indeed i just banned him. sorry for all the problems. all the posts he has made are deleted that i found. please report any others an i will take care of them also. sorry about that kate, an tb some people are just that way.

 

[TropicalBob]

Yes, your action is appreciated. Lord knows, we have real issues to discuss. Thanks ShawnP1.

 

[Kate]

Schematic diagram showing rise in venous blood nicotine levels after smoking a cigarette and after using different nicotine replacement therapy products, following overnight abstinence from cigarettes

RCP | Nicotine Addiction in Britain

I found this interesting, it shows that the spike in blood nicotine levels after smoking is much more pronounced than with NRT. That might be one of the effects we crave when quitting tobacco. It would be useful if we could compare nicotine levels from esmoking, I suspect it would be more like smoking than NRT because of absorption via lungs.

"Since no current nicotine replacement therapy (NRT) formulation uses the pulmonary route of absorption, none can mimic either the extremely high and rapidly acquired arterial nicotine concentrations which occur when tobacco products are inhaled, or the rapid pharmacological effect that this produces. The typical time course of the increase in nicotine levels in venous blood after smoking a cigarette is also faster than after most nicotine replacement products ..."

 

[dc2k08]

There was a variant gene discovered recently that is said to be found in some people and makes it more difficult for them to quit nicotine:

Penn research probes genetic underpinnings of nicotine addiction


That test would be interesting kate, i wish we could get someone to do it.

 

[TropicalBob]

DC, I had read that .. and it gives new relevance to the claim that "I'm a born smoker." Yes, some might be, and quitting will be far harder or impossible if it's "in your genes."

Kate, e-smoking should be closer to cigarette smoking than any NRT method. But, sorry to report that I do not get that instant kick a cigarette provided 17 months ago. If fact, I rarely feel anything except maybe a burning in my throat (unwelcome). I find that nasal snuff is close to the fast-acting nasal spray from Big Pharma. Snus and pipes and cigars are way down the list -- in that "30 minutes to feel" territory.

I've not tried any liquid stronger than 24mg -- and that didn't satisfy me. I look forward to trying something that delivers -- per inhalation -- exactly the nicotine content I once got from a premium cigarette. E-smoking's vapor is great; the taste is better than tobacco; but the impact is most important, and is far too delayed for me. Given that we're providing nicotine a lung route to the brain, I can't figure out what is missing with e-smoking. But something is.

 

[ZambucaLu]

TB,

I think what you said on another thread made a lot of sense:

"And the vapor lacks a few things, we've learned, that contribute to the "satisfaction" smokers swear by with real cigs. No carbon monoxide, for instance, because no combustion is taking place. No harmine, an important chemical that prolongs the pleasurable impact of your brain's release of serotonin and dopamine. Nicotine triggers the release of those "feel good" chemicals, but with e-smoking, the pleasure does not last. As a consequence, we suck and suck and suck on e-devices, trying to recapture the good feeling that is so fleeting."

Something is missing....even if it's a "bad" something. I also have not felt satisfied enough to quit the analogs. I have tried the 24mg...now I'm waiting on the 36.

And I could believe that "it's in the genes". My mother is 87 and still smoking strong (with no associated breathing problems to boot). My oldest brother (who can afford it), has tried everything from gum to acupuncture to hypnosis....nothing lasts.

I knocked off about 2 packs a day with the ecig...I still smoke 10-20 a day, which I just can't seem to kick. Maybe the 36mg will make a difference...maybe not. But I LOVE not smoking more than a pack of analogs a day....that's quite an achievement for me. And I remain hopeful that it will get even better in time

Lu