Three facts and 2 myths about nicotine

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I'm going to guess that's a recent lay dictionary def., as opposed to traditonal medical definition.

Yep, the poo gets deep otherwise. I'm a professional addict and spent my life honing my skills. What can I help you with??

 

[maureengill]

This is a good article and it explains why they want to give anti-depressants to people that want to quit smoking.

It seems to me that most of the AD's that are highly prescribed are ssri's not maoi's...the AD's with maoi's tend to have harsher side effects.

Maureen

 

[CES]

Rats may not get very addicted to nicotine- but it's also hard to train them to like smoking, so if you used a rat model you could show that smoking isn't addictive. That said, I think the addictive effects of nicotine in are overstated and conflated with nicotine in concert with MAOIs, behavioral conditioning etc. Most (if not all) drugs of addiction increase dopamine release in a brain nucleus called the nucleus accumbens. This is the natural pathway associated with pleasure from food or sex. In essence addictive drugs feel good because they hijack the pathway. Nicotine in isolation does activate the pathway, but to a much lesser extent than many other drugs. So do caffeine, alcohol and chocolate. Having a pleasurable experience isn't bad in and of itself. The problems occur when you repeat the pleasurable experience in spite of potential harm or instead of things necessary for staying alive- like eating.

 

[marudedame]

IMO nicotine is addictive. I can't do 0 nic itself, but I am okay with it if accompanied with nico patch.
So, I sometimes, well more than sometimes, over drip and end up getting some in my mouth while vaping, does that mean I am getting closer and closer to fatal point?

 

[Mop]

I honestly think we get nearly no nicotine while vaping- the only reason it satiates cig craving is because we actually go through the motions of smoking, so the psychological addiction is being fulfilled. I've chain vaped for hours before, and I've spilled lots of nicotine solution on my skin and gotten drops in my mouth- once even got some in my eye (hurt like hell), yet I've never gotten sick. In fact, I've never had an increased heart rate, felt more alert, or had any of the signs of nicotine exposure at all.

I might experiment a little, make some 0 nicotine solution with the same flavor as my high nicotine and mix the bottles up, go all day on each one and see if I can even tell the difference.

 

[Dredbull]

I blasted krystal up my right nostril mistaking it for saline spray..not dead not recommended.

 

[firechick]

Super octane snuff? Do tell.....

 

[alter.ego]

I remember a nasal nicotine replacement therapy treatment....

 

[CES]

I remember a nasal nicotine replacement therapy treatment....

I tried that one VERY briefly. It made your eyes water and it HURT. You knew you'd just gotten a blast of something but ouch. I read the package insert and it said the placebo that they tested it against was a very dilute pepper spray. I imagine that not many people tried it for any length of time.

 

[alter.ego]

all i remember was taking a shot of my friends, then smoking a red, and getting the biggest rush of nic i ever had, till i pulled too hard from my slightly overfilled kr8

 

[Nikhil]

I'm not sure why you think it is a myth, but nicotine is highly addictive, in some ways more addictive than many illegal hard drugs. The fact that it's not a strong drug actually serves to make it more addictive because it dissipates fairly rapidly. Here is a study about its addictiveness even in mice and its effect on brain chemistry (Neuropsychopharmacology. 2006 Jun;31(6):1203-11). It states:

'Overall, these data demonstrate that rats can voluntarily consume quantities of nicotine sufficient to increase the sensitivity of brain reward systems, an action likely crucial in establishing and maintaining the nicotine habit. Moreover, self-administered nicotine resets the sensitivity of reward systems to a new increased level, thereby imprinting an indelible 'memory' of its effects in reward systems, an action that so far appears unique to nicotine among drugs of abuse.'

As far as the rest of your information, a cigarette contains 8-20 mg of nicotine, but only about 1mg is absorbed. Not only did you use a much smaller number (you said 0.1mg per 20 cigarettes) but you assumed that all of the nicotine in the liquid of an e-cig is absorbed. Assuming 20% is absorbed from e-liquid (studies report less as far as I know), you'd need 5ml of 20mg/ml liquid to equal a pack of your average cigarettes. I'm not trying to change your mind, I would just be glad if you would not misinform people.

It is a myth that nicotine in isolation is addictive. This is why so many are looking for something more than nicotine in their juices. The worry is that if the myth is perpetuated, people will think that the reason their juice isn't giving them what they wanted is because they haven't put enough in. This leads to heavier and heavier dosing which is dangerouse. I am sure you will have seen on here people using 5.4% straight which is over 8mg per pack.

The other reason why I am keen that we don't perpetuate the myth is that the powers that be are concerned as to wether they should allow one addiction (tobacco smoking) to be replaced by another such as e-cigs with nicotine. If the recognise that the nicotine, solo, is not the addictive element in tobacco, then they have lost a major plank in the platform which wants to ban e-cigs.

Purevapor, Thanks for the article. It pre-dates the one I quoted and to some extent was the pre-cursor to the work done in 2005 which showed that nicotine, in isolation, is not addictive. The article you quoted did say that this was an area which lacked data. The 2005 study provided some of that data. Following on from there ther has been a limited amount of work done on the carbolines that your article is concerned with and it would seem that it may be that the carbolines may be a very significant part of the story.

Tuesday et al. I am not sure what you are looking for. Does it help to point out that, superficially, 0.1Mg per pack of 20 analogue cigarettes (as printed but not explained on the packet) equates to roughly 6.2Ml or (0.62%) juice strength?
If you are trying to calculate the sort of supplies you might need based on your analogue habits, you could try a spreadsheet which I wrote just for that purpose. Can't post the URL here, but if you use a tiny url with ycy42ep as the reference you can have a look and let me know if you think it is worth the electrons!

Patrick

 

[ArenqueRojo]

Hi PureVapor,
I am sorry that you think that I am trying to misinform people. What I am actually trying to do is to dispel some of the common misinformation, of course.
The study I referred to was specifically considering addiction which the study you referred to was not. It was concerned with the tenacity of the effects of the drug. A very different issue.
Interestingly, the study you refer to actually supports the work that shows nicotine as not addictive in itself.
It shows that there is some probability that the nicotine reward memory is retained for long periods. It shows that we may remember the pleasure rewards, maybe permanently. Interesting and important but not indicative of addiction. It specifically says that the rats did not try to continue to increas the dosage.
The mark of addiction is the wish to ever increas the intake even when we know the result of doing so is harmful. The study clearly says that nicotine, unlike other abused drugs does not do so. It goes on to say that nicotine acts with other substances to create a dependency. Again, not in isolation.

Why do you prefer to see nicotine as addictive. Have you seen any evidence to suggest that it is?
The studies we have seen here and in the report I quoted are indicating otherwise and there are other studies which point to the conclusion that nicotine in isolation is not addictive.

Thanks for you comments on the nicotine levels in cigarettes. The 0.1mg figure is taken from Philip Morris One which is a very low content cigarette. Camels are 0.8mg and much more main stream. What brands are you quoting with the extraordinary high levels you are suggesting?
I agree that we don't know what proportion of the available nicotine is absorbed with an e-cig. I agree that it is likely to be considerably less than the quantity added to the liquid. But then, again, we don't know what proportion of the nicotine in a real cigarette is absorbed and we do know that a lot of it is destroyed through the burning process. All I can do is the maths on the basis of the potential levels in both cases until we have some realistic studies. Having said that, I think that the anecdotal evidence is that the two are not too disimilar and so the ratios I have used are broadly useable.

So, PureVapor, I don't think it is me that is misleading people and I do understand that popular perception is against the view I expressed. That is why I offered the scientific evidence.

Patrick

 

[gashin]

Nice post! Thanks!

Just for interest:

Nicotine is addictive
False
Nicotine is only addictive when accompanied by other chemicals found in tobacco. Alone it is not addictive.
Ref: 1 below

Nicotine is just a tobacco derivative.
False
Nicotine is found in most nightshade plants. These include aubergine (eggplant), potatoes, tomatoes etc. Nicotine is found in much higher concentration in tobacco but to imply that tobacco is the only natural source is to mislead.
Ref: 2 below

Nicotine is part of our everyday food consumption
True
Obviously, the amount of nicotine in the average diet depends on the foods eaten. Cultural differences are a big factor in food choices. National nicotine diets range from 1.14 micrograms to 2.25 micrograms per day.
This should be compared to a person smoking 20 cigarettes per day using a medium nicotine brand. Such a smoker will absorb 100 micrograms a day.

Nicotine is highly toxic.
True
Toxicity is not an absolute. A substance may be beneficial, even essential, in low doses but fatal in high doses. Nicotine is one such. For the pedants: Nicotine is LD50 which means that 5% solution will kill half the people stupid enough to put it on their skin.
Ref: 3 below

Nicotine on the skin can kill
True
Current guidelines show that nicotine concentrations of 4% to 6% absorbed through the skin can be fatal and therefore toxic.
Most commercial supplies of nicotine for human consumption are sold at no more than 3.6%. This compares with a strong cigarette having 2.4% and a low nicotine 0.1mg cigarette at 0.65%. Some suppliers are selling a 5.4% and supplies in China can reach 8%.



References
1
Monoamine Oxidase Inhibition Dramatically Increases the Motivation to Self-Administer Nicotine in Rats
Karine Guillem, Caroline Vouillac, Marc R. Azar, Loren H. Parsons, George F. Koob, Martine Cador, and
Luis Stinus - The Journal of Neuroscience, September 21, 2005 • 25(38):8593– 8600 • 8593
2
The most famous food members of the nightshade family include potatoes (Solanum tuberosum), tomatoes (Lycopersicon esculentum), many species of sweet and hot peppers (all species of Capsicum, including Capsicum annum), and eggplant (Solanum melongena). Less well know, but equally genuine nightshade foods include ground cherries (all species of Physalis), tomatillos (Physallis ixocapra), garden huckleberry (Solanum melanocerasum), tamarillos (Cyphomandra betacea), pepinos (Solanum muricatum), and naranjillas (Solanum quitoense). Pimentos (also called pimientos) belong to the nightshade family, and usually come from the pepper plant Capsicum annum. Pimento cheese and pimento-stuffed olives are therefore examples of foods that should be classified as containing nightshade components.
George Mateljan Foundation
Sheen SJ. (1988). Detection of nicotine in foods and plant mateials. J Food Sci 53(5):1572-3.
3
Studies suggest that smokers require less frequent repeated revascularization after percutaneous coronary intervention (PCI).
Cohen, David J.; Michel Doucet, Donald E. Cutlip, Kalon K.L. Ho, Jeffrey J. Popma, Richard E. ....z (2001). "Impact of Smoking on Clinical and Angiographic Restenosis After Percutaneous Coronary Intervention". Circulation 104 (7): 773.

Nicotine has been shown to delay the onset of Parkinson's disease in studies involving monkeys and humans.
DeNoon, Daniel (2006-08-11). "Nicotine Slows Parkinson's Disease". Nicotine Slows Parkinson's Disease. Retrieved 2009-12-27.
Peck, Peggy (2002-07-25). "Smoking Significantly Increases Risk of Alzheimer's Disease Among Those Who Have No Genetic Predisposition". More vitamin B6 linked to lower Parkinson's risk. Retrieved 2009-12-27.
Fox, Maggie (2007-10-24). "Nicotine may ease Parkinson's symptoms: U.S. study". Nicotine may ease Parkinson's symptoms: U.S. study | Reuters. Retrieved 2009-12-27.

Hope that interests somebody
Patrick

 

[AlexTM]

Just for interest:

Nicotine on the skin can kill
True
Current guidelines show that nicotine concentrations of 4% to 6% absorbed through the skin can be fatal and therefore toxic.
Most commercial supplies of nicotine for human consumption are sold at no more than 3.6%. This compares with a strong cigarette having 2.4% and a low nicotine 0.1mg cigarette at 0.65%. Some suppliers are selling a 5.4% and supplies in China can reach 8%.

Always nice to see that people changed text other people refered to. So honest.

That is still BS, though. The concentration has very little to do with toxidicy. It's still the absolute amount of nicotine absorbed into the system that is relevant. The fatal dose for humans is estimated to be 40-60mg for an adult, and dilution is only relevant insofar as it influences the ability to absorb the nic, and not in any other way. Drink a 10ml bottle of 6mg/ml liquid, and despite the fact that this is only 0.6%, chances are very good that you die.

Not to mention that those "light" cigarettes still contain far more nicotine than 0.1mg - that is the amount a standardized machine gets smoked out of one of those. A human smoker usually gets a lot more out of it, usually around 1mg, and the tobacco itself contains much more than that.

I'd try to get my facts straight before I announce them with such a flourish.

 

[Malfeitor]

Rats may not get very addicted to nicotine- but it's also hard to train them to like smoking, so if you used a rat model you could show that smoking isn't addictive.

Well. I performed some clinical smoking tests with the rat that lives in my wood pile near the barn since this post. Unfortunately, it was inconclusive.

Day1: He doesn't seem to be able to get the lighter going quite yet. He just picks it up, smiffs it, then tries to flick it and it pops out of his little nubs on the ground.

Day2: I lit an analog and threw it at him. He hopped around it a few times, stared at it and, low and behold, the FSC additive kicked in and it went out. This happened 3 more times throughout the day.

Day 3: Why did the chicken kill himself? To get to the other side. I walk to the woodpile this morning and find the little fury guy in a charred cinder. Evidence reveals he successfully got the lighter going and his fur was more friendly to fire than the FSC analog.

Notes for future testing brethren:

• Used shaved rats for your test
• Import analogs from a South American country for your test
• Don't leave a loaded lighter with an unarmed rodent.

Sorry. I'm bored, couldn't get over the visual and this is what happens when a MechEng does biological testing. No rats or chickens were harmed during this post.

 

[CES]

Well. I performed some clinical smoking tests with the rat that lives in my wood pile near the barn since this post. Unfortunately, it was inconclusive.

Day1: He doesn't seem to be able to get the lighter going quite yet. He just picks it up, smiffs it, then tries to flick it and it pops out of his little nubs on the ground.

Day2: I lit an analog and threw it at him. He hopped around it a few times, stared at it and, low and behold, the FSC additive kicked in and it went out. This happened 3 more times throughout the day.

Day 3: Why did the chicken kill himself? To get to the other side. I walk to the woodpile this morning and find the little fury guy in a charred cinder. Evidence reveals he successfully got the lighter going and his fur was more friendly to fire than the FSC analog.

Notes for future testing brethren:

• Used shaved rats for your test
• Import analogs from a South American country for your test
• Don't leave a loaded lighter with an unarmed rodent.

Sorry. I'm bored, couldn't get over the visual and this is what happens when a MechEng does biological testing. No rats or chickens were harmed during this post.

ROFL that was GREAT!!!

 

[DVap]

Sorry. I'm bored, couldn't get over the visual and this is what happens when a MechEng does biological testing. No rats or chickens were harmed during this post.

Bravo.