Volumetric measurements of solids...

[zyglrox]

Why is this the norm? All of the recipes I see which include solids give the amounts in teaspoons, tablespoons, and milliliters. This really doesn't make sense to me from a practical standpoint. Those are all volumetric units of measurement. They are not well suited to measuring solids. This is the reason your menthol juices are inconsistent from batch to batch. The ml is fine to use for liquids because the density of a liquid is uniform, meaning that the mass of say, three separate 10ml measurements of the same liquid will all be the same amount. Provided that temperature and atmospheric pressure are constant, a 10ml measurement will always give you virtually the exact same amount of liquid. Even in a non-homogenized suspension containing liquids of varying densities, the liquids will all consistently settle in the same flat, even layers every single time. Volumetric measurements are more viable and practical for liquids because they will fill a container evenly regardless of whether or not you have a suspension/solution or pour it in any particular way. It's quicker and easier than weighing them because liquids are messy and their tendency to wobble in the container makes getting accurate readings on a precision scale tedious work. That's where volumetric units of measurement come in.

You ever buy your potato chips by the liter? How about a gallon of dry oatmeal? No? Why do you think that is?

For solids, you want to be taking the mass. Say I'm measuring 10ml of menthol. In all actuality, there's no telling how much menthol that is. Depending on the size and distribution of the particles, that could weigh out to be a significantly different amount of menthol. The crushed particles will never uniformly distribute and evenly fill every empty space in the container up to whatever line they meet. Hell, I could turn 10ml of menthol into 6-8ml just by tamping it down or crushing it into a slightly finer powder. Does anybody see the issue here? If you're going to present measurements for solids in teaspoons or ml's, you may as well be telling people to add pinches of this and smidgens of that! There's no way to accurately and consistently reproduce the intended end result of such recipes because no two volumetric measurements of a solid are truly the same. This may not be much of an issue when you're preparing food or making really large batches of juice, but when you're messing with small amounts of potent flavoring agents, the difference can be quite significant!

Don't tell me that using only volumetric units of measurement makes it easier to get percentages for your solutions. 'Easy' and 'correct' are two completely different things in this instance. Those percentages you're getting are not and never will be accurate for the reasons cited above. Grams and milligrams - they're what you want! Forget percentages that don't transfer from project to project. They're largely useless to you and everyone else. mg/ml concentrations, on the other hand, are repeatable. They may not be as intuitive when you're just reading them, but they are easier to reproduce, which is what really counts. They're much better for sharing and/or producing multiple batches of what is supposed to be the exact same thing.

I apologize for the rant. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but as someone who likes to be both accurate and precise, it really annoys me when I see people saying to add such and such ml amount of menthol, ethyl maltol, sucralose, and so on. You wouldn't buy those powders by the ml, would you? I dunno... ...I just like for none of my batches to be too strong or too weak and I'm sick of converting volumetric measurements to an average mass for mere consistency's sake. A .01 scale would be fine for measuring solids and would run you anywhere from ten to twenty dollars! Get scales people!

Do not even get me started on drops. Are 1ml syringes with .02ml graduations too rare or pricey for some of you?

 

[bazmonkey]

1) Volumetric measurements of solids has a long history in baking. Cup of flour, teaspooon of sugar, etc. Old ladies have been passing along recipes with volumetric solid measurements for a long time. In most cases it's close enough.

2) Weighing stuff is hard! I can measure volumetrically with spoons.

3) The solution is not to weigh everything. The solution is... to make solutions! 10% menthol by weight in PG, and measure that volumetrically. By the time it gets to the DIY stage of the game, everything should be liquid. The person prepping the ethyl maltol solution or menthol solution can do the weighing. And if that person is you, then yes, weigh away.

 

[RobertNC]

I actively promote use of weight for all solids. You can get a small set of jewelry scales off e-bay for cheap. It does take a little technique but it is mostly about being patient and disciplined.

 

[boomerdude]

What makes you think we don't use grams when measuring solids? Everything is just a conversion scale away. Or you can do it in your head easy enough. It's DIY after all not Rocket Science.

 

[glassmanoak]

Personally, the only digital scale I ever use is to estimate my body mass. OMG, I thought that I was an*l about my measurements! A recipe from another individual is just a starting point, I think. Not a scientific formula to reproduce a mixture. I think we can all dissolve menthol crystals in PG and deal with turning EM into a liquid and VERY QUICKLY learn to manipulate the results.
What's truly important to me is that I'm able to reproduce the juices that I have invented in any quantity I choose and that I am careful enough with these myriad chemicals not to harm myself or anyone else.
Dealing with solids by volume or weight are an extremely small part of what I do.. ie, making Menthol liquids once every 6 months

 

[adws]

A .01 scale would be fine for measuring solids and would run you anywhere from ten to twenty dollars! Get scales people!

Do not even get me started on drops. Are 1ml syringes with .02ml graduations too rare or pricey for some of you?

As an environmental scientist who does lab work and as somebody who grew up in a chemistry lab I agree. Get a scale for measuring soilds. I've been reading these forums for a few months now and I have learned a lot, but this is one area I know very well. Please everybody get a scale.

But I disagree with the use of syringes. Syringes are not totally accurate as well. The printing wears off and many numerous things happen after the first use. If you want to treat them as disposable then fine. I only use 1 mL Mohr glass pipettes that measures 0.01 mL and graduated cylinders.

DIY is a mixture of art and science. This is why I love DIY. This is me and if it doesn't bother you to have perfect measurements then so be it for me to stand in your way. But please everybody if you want to DIY please understand the math and how to do it yourself and not rely on someone else's math. All it is is V1C1=V2C2, Volume1 Concentration1=Volume2 Concentration2.

Sorry my first post on this forum is negative, I know it isn't a good way to start out. This is just my two cents. I really have enjoyed reading the threads here.

 

[zyglrox]

1) Volumetric measurements of solids has a long history in baking. Cup of flour, teaspooon of sugar, etc. Old ladies have been passing along recipes with volumetric solid measurements for a long time. In most cases it's close enough.

I know, and it does work well for foods, where you're not as likely to taste the fluctuations, as they are proportionately less significant to the exponentially larger quantities of far less potent ingredients you're working with. A slight fluctuation can mean a lot more when you're working with less of something, such as is often the case with DIY juicing.

2) Weighing stuff is hard! I can measure volumetrically with spoons.

I guess it is for some. I've never thought it was all that hard. All you really have to do to get a decent measurement for DIY purposes is turn off the fan, put your scale on a stable, level surface, turn the scale on, make sure it's properly calibrated with a calibration weight and start placing what you're weighing on there until you hit the desired weight. If you put too much on, you take some off and start adding again. With just a tiny bit of practice, it takes but a minute to do. You can even use spoons to put it on the scale if you want!

3) The solution is not to weigh everything. The solution is... to make solutions! 10% menthol by weight in PG, and measure that volumetrically. By the time it gets to the DIY stage of the game, everything should be liquid. The person prepping the ethyl maltol solution or menthol solution can do the weighing. And if that person is you, then yes, weigh away.

I mix my own solutions because 20 grams of menthol will go a lot further than those little bottles of weaker solution you get for the same price. I'm not gonna pay somebody a huge markup just to have by weight solutions when I can make exponentially more myself at higher concentrations. I think this is the most common rationale behind buying the agents in pure form as opposed to using the premixed solutions.

But you're right, that would be the way to go if you're dead set on having percentages. I just don't see why mg/ml isn't acceptable for indicating the strength of flavoring solutions, since nic juice is specified in mg/ml concentrations rather than in by weight percentages and it all works out just fine. With mg/ml, you don't need to weigh both or do any tricky conversions. Just weigh your solid to get the mg reading, mix it with your liquid, take a volumetric reading of the resulting solution for your ml amount, and divide the mg amount by the ml amount. It's simple and gives you a number that you can use over and over again with essentially no discernible fluctuations. It also makes it easier to gauge how much of an ingredient you are adding. Say you have a solution containing 1mg/ml of something. Scale that up to 15ml and you have 15mg nice and easily. It ultimately simplifies the whole process.

What makes you think we don't use grams when measuring solids?

I'm not saying nobody does - I'm just not seeing it. I do, so it stands to reason that there are others. We just aren't the majority at all, it seems.

Everything is just a conversion scale away. Or you can do it in your head easy enough.

True, but you still cannot convert from liters to grams just by doing some math. The former measures volume while the latter measures mass. In order to do a conversion with some mental math, you need to first measure the same thing by both weight and volume in order to calculate the density (mass/volume,) which you can then use to mathematically convert from say, liters to grams by using the formula: volume * density. But since it's a solid, there's no way to consistently get the same reading of volume using a graduated container, so it won't be an accurate conversion even if you do your math right. The best way to get a semi-accurate conversion would be by taking multiple volumetric measurements and averaging them out before doing your math. It's actually the more complicated way to go!

It's DIY after all not Rocket Science.

I agree, but neither is taking repeatable measurements. It's just regular science... ...basic, high-school-level science, actually.

I think we can all dissolve menthol crystals in PG and deal with turning EM into a liquid and VERY QUICKLY learn to manipulate the results.

I do have to give you that. And if you want to take that approach, then have at it. I suppose I just prefer not to have any easily avoidable guesswork involved in MY process. I prefer to know that I'm getting it right the first time and not have to make adjustments later. Why be vague when you can just as easily be specific? I'm just saying that using more reliable measuring units in recipes would make adjusting to produce the same result largely unnecessary. You'd have something much closer to what they made and would, from there, be free to adjust to taste and make a note of it so you don't have to keep guessing at those adjustments every time you make a batch using that recipe. This way, once you get it perfectly delicious, you can always have that perfectly delicious juice!

But I disagree with the use of syringes. Syringes are not totally accurate as well. The printing wears off and many numerous things happen after the first use. If you want to treat them as disposable then fine. I only use 1 mL Mohr glass pipettes that measures 0.01 mL and graduated cylinders.

Very true. I mentioned syringes because that's what most people have easy access to/are familiar with. Most vendors carry them and they are a bit easier to work with. If I was to recommend either, it would be the glass pipettes and graduated cylinders, hands down.

DIY is a mixture of art and science. This is why I love DIY.

Me too! I see the art part as working out your recipes, i.e., the ingredients used and the ratios between them. The science part is in the math you do and the measurements you take.

And yes, I realize that I'm coming off as a stiff too some of you (okay, MOST of you,) but I'm really just trying to make what I think is a pretty valid a point here. I'm glad to see that at least a couple of you agree with me! I probably sound like Walt from Breaking Bad to the rest. Please don't take it personally. It's called DIY because you do it yourself!

 

[unloaded]

All my scales weigh in grains, I don't want to do the conversions.

 

[adws]

But I disagree with the use of syringes. Syringes are not totally accurate as well. The printing wears off and many numerous things happen after the first use. If you want to treat them as disposable then fine. I only use 1 mL Mohr glass pipettes that measures 0.01 mL and graduated cylinders.

Very true. I mentioned syringes because that's what most people have easy access to/are familiar with. Most vendors carry them and they are a bit easier to work with.

DIY is a mixture of art and science. This is why I love DIY.

Me too! I see the art part as working out your recipes, i.e., the ingredients used and the ratios between them. The science part is in the math you do and the measurements you take.

And yes, I realize, I'm coming off as a stiff too some of you, but I'm really just trying to make what I think is a pretty valid a point here. I probably sound like Walt from Breaking Bad. Please don't take it personally. It's called DIY because you do it yourself!

Good equipment is really easy to come by if you just look a little http://www.hometrainingtools.com/chemistry/c/3/
I buy from these guys and the equipment is really good at a fair price. I will admit use a Mohr pipette will be slower than a syringe, but a lot more accurate.

I am glad I'm not the only one who see this as both art and science and a scientist is an artist. And I know people are probably going to say we are taking this over the top, but I agree with you 100%, and I do promise I'm not trying to be a d***head. Measuring is one area I fill very passionate about. I know I'm a dork, but I'm ok with that. LoL.

Honestly this post made me go out and put my 5 post in the newbie area just so I can comment and give tou support

 

[RobertNC]

As an environmental scientist who does lab work and as somebody who grew up in a chemistry lab I agree. Get a scale for measuring soilds. I've been reading these forums for a few months now and I have learned a lot, but this is one area I know very well. Please everybody get a scale.

But I disagree with the use of syringes. Syringes are not totally accurate as well. The printing wears off and many numerous things happen after the first use. If you want to treat them as disposable then fine. I only use 1 mL Mohr glass pipettes that measures 0.01 mL and graduated cylinders.

DIY is a mixture of art and science. This is why I love DIY. This is me and if it doesn't bother you to have perfect measurements then so be it for me to stand in your way. But please everybody if you want to DIY please understand the math and how to do it yourself and not rely on someone else's math. All it is is V1C1=V2C2, Volume1 Concentration1=Volume2 Concentration2.

Sorry my first post on this forum is negative, I know it isn't a good way to start out. This is just my two cents. I really have enjoyed reading the threads here.

I did GC/MS for EPA for CLP 8270 and 8240 mehods. DIY does not require 5 point 20-160 ng calibrations etc etc. I use scales for solids because it just good practice and cheap and easy. Volume of solids is highly variable based on technique, crystal size, etc.

I also agree that people believe things about those syringes that is just not true. The 1 mL, 0.1/0.02 mL graduated standard syringe most use have a variance of +/- 0.02 mL, and that is only when you are pulling in a volume near the 1 mL capacity, and are skilled in the use of them.

Sure I use them - to measure out 0.6 mL nic base and 1.6 mL PG/VG base, but that is it. I do a lot of 3 mL permutations, without good glass micro-syringes, using a basic 1 mL 0.02 graduation syringe for flavors is not what I consider good technique.

This is all about as has been mentioned, what you think you can reliably reproduce. You have no idea what is even in most of this stuff much less accurate concentrations.

For the many 3 mL batches I make, I use drops for flavors. A drop is an indeterminate volume, that does not mean it cannot be delivered reproducibly. I use consistent dropper tips, and consistent technique. I think calculators with these 3 decimal place precisions are a load of crap and often not even practical to work with.

This is am empirical process. Consistent technique, knowing you can do it the same way every time, not cross-contaminating flavors, and most of all reliable and consistent detailed records of what you do are what I think are important. You are never going to know what actually is in the mix, what matters is does it taste good and can you make it again over and over.

And as a footnote, people that think they know accurate drops per mL for even simple PG/VG base? That is just a notion. Between when you open that 120 mL bottle of Pg/VG and when you finished you would be astonished at how much water it has sucked out of the ambient air.

I'm for reasonable accuracy, such as use of scales for solids, but beyond that I forego any notion of accuracy that is not in fact likely to be at all accurate and just focus on what is practical, and what I feel like I can do reproducibly.

 

[zyglrox]

^That was good food for thought. I have nothing to add there.