what makes an atomizer lose it potency and after how long

[trog100]

my pipes all start off with loads of vapour.. after no more than two weeks use or say vaporizing about 40 ml of liquid they only produce half the original smoke.. nothing will alter this..

my cigarillos do the same after three or four days or about 12 ml of liquid going thru them..

the pillbox 901 generic type might manager 50 ml of liquid.. they then fade off..

this is guaranteed behavior.. it varies a little but has happened with the couple of dozen atomizers we have been thru.. its very predictable..

the very short cigarillos life span has me puzzled.. these things do have a known and testable life.. the consistency that it happens to mine kinda makes this obvious.. its not random failure its a very predicable fall off in performance even in the good performers when new..

out of all the ones i have tried the 901 generics with the neat writing on them last the longest.. i thought bigger might make them last longer.. but the little 901 generics last longer than my big pipe ones..

this really does need some work doing on it.. how many puffs or how many ml of fluid or number of carts these things will vaporize before losing half their vapour producing abilities..

washing or cleaning might perk them up for bit (sometimes) but not by much or for long..

the fall off is gradual and can go un noticed.. trying a new one soon brings home just how much the performance has actually dropped off..

the better they are to start with the more drop off leeway they have before becoming too much of a wimp to be worth using.. i have some month old ones that might still be considered to work okay by some.. but compared to when new they dont work anywhere near as well..

at best it seems an atomizer will go thru no more than one 50 ml bottle of liquid before it needs replacing from where i stand.. what puzzles me is why.. has anybody read or have any idea just what happens to the little heater coil to cause this very predicable drop off..

how long they last for each individual depends on the use they get.. how many carts before they start to noticeable drop off.. and why they drop off..

the makers know but refuse to answer..

e-cig answered me about the pipes.. they said three to four months in normal use.. but "normal use" can been anything and how poor do they have to get before they are considered to need replacement.. dead is easy to define.. a gradual performance drop off isnt..

one device in regular 30 a day type daily use.. how long will it last before it turns into an unusable wimp.. and why does it.. ????.. total heater coil or switch failure i can understand but this very predicable drop off has me puzzled

it really is easy for the makers to put this to the test.. i have and my conclusion aint very good.. all they have to do it connect one to a puffing machine or better still send me one and i will find out.. he he

if someone says (as they will) mine is okay after two months.. please say how many ml of fluid its vaporized during those two months and also has its performance been compared to a new one of the same type.. in other words we need to know exactly what "okay" means.. is it still "like new" okay or only just working okay..

trog

 

[UncleMidriff]

Good question. I really have no idea.

Alls I can think of is it must have something to do with buildup on the atomizer heating element.

I've been using my using my current atomizer from NJoy for about a month now, and it will get to the point sometimes where it just won't produce a thing. Today was a day like that. It was very frustrating, as I was having a stressful day at work and I couldn't even sneak an e-hit. Even when I left work and could finally suck on it like I was trying to turn the damn thing inside out without worrying about someone seeing me, I barely got a wisp. When I finally had enough of it, I rinsed out the atomizer under warm water. Now the thing is better than new, letting out pillars of smoke large enough to lead people through the desert.

I can't think of anything that would cause that sort of behaviour other than some kind of gradual buildup.

As for why yours won't come back even after cleaning, I dunno. Maybe after awhile, the gunk builds up so thick that rinsing or washing it out doesn't take it all away. Or maybe we never get all the gunk out, and after awhile the amount that remains and can't be rinsed away increases to the point that atomizer is useless.

Given all the different strengths, flavors and manufacturers, of the liquid, some are bound to be more gunkerific than others...I dunno which ones those are though.

I'd really like to be able to completely and easily disassemble my e-cig, so that I could get at all the hidden bits and give them a good scrubbing every now and then. I know the average consumer probably wouldn't bother, but I'm somewhat of a tinkerer, and I'd really like to be able to get into one of these things play around with the stuff inside. That's one major disadvantage to owning a name brand e-cig; any fiddling I do, I do at the risk of voiding my warranty. With low-cost generic, sure, you don't as good a warranty, but damn it if I wanted to take a sledge hammer to the thing after it goes out, I'd be able to.

 

[jarvis]

I guess the heating coil itself could eventually, like a light bulb, burn out. There's a fiber that this coil is wrapped around that leaches the e-liquid onto the coil for vaporization. Without this fiber, as I found experimenting, the coil gets too hot and burns to nothing/breaks up. Like wicks in zippo lighters, these fibers in the coil are gradually getting singed, until the point were they, being synthetic, form into a black mass. I'm guessing this gradual burning of the fiber is why atomizer performance diminishes over time.

 

[trog100]

yes jarvis i think the burning away of the fiber is the problem.. its also inevitable and guaranteed to happen.. a copy of another post i have put in the cleaning thread.. i aint 100% sure its the reason but its beginning to look that way.. these coils are not burning out like the light bulb does.. a good analogy would be they are going so dim as to be unusable.. or they are like a light bulb that costs way too much and only last a week before going dim.. he he

===

after poking around a bit i am beginning to arrive at a conclusion/theory on this atomizer coils going wimpy thing..

when they come new they have some kind of absorbent wrapping or coating around the small wire wound heater coil..

the purpose of this coating seems to be to wick or absorb liquid and bring it into close contact with the heater coil itself.. its this small quantity of liquid held in the wrapping that is vaporized and produces the goods..

this wrapping burns away a little with each puff.. after so may puffs its ether all burned away or gone charred and hard.. it loses it absorbency.. when this happens the coil no longer does the vapour producing it used to do.. the result is the all too well known wimp..

cleaning wont stop or help this process only replacing the atomizer will..

i need this theory confirming either my the makers or someone who has taken brand new atomizers apart.. so far i have only looked at well used ones.. i see what looks like black charred crud around the heater coil.. .. i need to see the brand new coils before they gets used..

some kind of fiber material burring away quite quickly because its in direct contact with near red hot resistor wire coil does explain why these thing wear out so consistently and in such a short time..

i have tested eight cigarillo atomizers recently.. when new they produce lots of vapour and are nice devices to use.. but they last less than a week before turning into wimps.. this very short working properly lifespan has had me puzzled.. this as yet unproven (by me at least) absorbent coating burning away theory does explain whats happening and why..

a new atomizer (greencig) with each new cart seem to be one answer.. but it really does have to be cheap.. the cost is the key factor here.. or for heavy smokers like me it is.. no way on this planet could i follow the greencig route even thow i do think they are on the right track..

we are following the printer ink pattern.. both in the rip-off factor and the printhead being replaced every time a new print cartridge is fitted..

e liquid has taken over from printer ink as the most expensive liquid on the planet.. it seems the way the carts are going to be sold is following the same pattern..

what i need is a cheap replacement atomizer every week or so.. not be ripped off even more i am already for over priced carts..

to think i would be going thru three atomizers per day is silly.. again okay for the occasional user or party smoker.. of no use at all for the heavy smoker.. the cost factor will make it totally unpractical for the likes of me..

but at least it shows the makers are aware these things dont last long..

trog

 

[TropicalBob]

Trog, you're right. On all counts. Your premises are right, your conclusions are sound. And, indeed, a fully disposable atomizer/cartridge is the only answer. A better atomizer is not just around the corner, apparently.

But we now have LoongTotem, GreenCig and Ruyan offering disposables. I'm not sure how you need to calculate the expense -- per puff, per day, per cartridge -- to make it affordable for you. Affordable to me means cheaper than a pack-a-day commercial cigarette habit. LoongTotem, for me, would be $1.80 a day. I'm eager to learn what GreenCig's per day cost will be. The Ruyan cigar remains too pricey for my daily use.

And let me say that your notion that these have always been disposable has proven correct, hasn't it? We were sold a bunch of empty promises. These are not long-haul devices where we just top-off cartridges and then blissfully enjoy e-smoking. Atomizers burn out faster than an original Thomas Edison light bulb! Batteries die. Mouthpiece/cartridges don't even fit right sometimes.

All that now being the case, I'm more interested than ever in an economical, disposable daily e-smoker. Do you still refill your faithful Zippo?

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Hi Trog

I think you're on the right track here. You might not have seen this thread because it was mostly active while you were away. Posts 55, 73, 115 & 173 have pics or video, and you'll be particularly interested in 173 as it's a cart-smasher (newish cart).

Emp

 

[trog100]

the problem starts of with ruyan and their original target market here bob.. take a look at one of their early videos.. a bunch of well off looking people in a restaurant.. all puffing away with not a sign of smoke in sight..

what we are talking here is a device aimed at occasional use people.. something to make smoking socially acceptable for the kind of people who dine out a couple of times a week.. we are talking two or three hours use per week or even less.. the product made sense and fitted the purpose it was intended for.. a life span of two or more years could be expected and if one went wrong there was no problem sending out the odd new device.. it had of course already been paid for several time over.. the user would not be overly bothered by not having his device for a while either..

it all goes wrong when the likes of me arrive on the scene.. the two or three hours per week half hearted use turns into 103 hours per week of genuinely needed good smoke production..

the product as its sold and at the price its sold was never intended for the likes of me.. its akin to a cheap amateur power tool intended for the occasional use hobbyist being used in an industrial environment and used twenty four hours per day..

let me use my e-cig pipes as an example.. my stated life span of two weeks could well turn into five years used in the original ruyan way..

the e-cig pipe is a copy of the ruyan pipe.. the design is insane.. all it needs is to be built around a simple plug in replacement two dollar atomizer.. as it is now having to throw away a beautifully made wooden pipe every two weeks just cos a cos nothing atomizer is failing grieves me big time.. its not just the cost its also the sheer waste of nice workmanship and materials.. so is syringing out pipe carts to get liquid.. ..

its the PC printer thing all over again.. cheaper to throw away the bloody printer every two weeks and buy a new one than buy a new ink carts.. in short the good old Gillette method of selling taken to extremes

and yes i know it will be cheaper for me to throw away my complete pipe than use anybodies new cart with their new design throw away atomizers..

for a laff have look at my way around the printer ink thing.. if i can find the pics... back in a tick..

trog

ps.. cant find the pics but the idea was five 50ml separate ink bottles mounted along side the printer with small pipes feeding the ink to the printhead via a modded ink cart.. i was after being able to print A4 sized photos for a reasonbale cost..

my current e smoking costs based on a 901 generic atomizer or a pipe atomizer lasting two weeks and using 2 to 3 ml of china liquid per day works out at between 20 and 30 dollars per person per week.. i cant really do it any cheaper with the existing stuff thats available.. not and get the results i want..

i could run cigarillo atomizers and bin them every four or five days..

the piss take is if i used a cigarillo or cigar atomizer just for one day and then thew it away it would still work out cheaper than ruyans latest disposable rip-off.. that would cost me 22 dollars per day..

i worked this out somewhere the other day.. paying over twenty thousand dollars per gallon for e liquid aint in my ball park.. these people might think they have fools for customers but i aint one of em.. he he

if i have offended any "fools" please accept my apologies in advance..

 

[TropicalBob]

Let me quickly say that lifespan is not my only, perhaps even primary, reason to favor disposables. These present devices are just unreliable. We never know what will happen when we inhale on them. As we use up a cartridge, the vapor declines and we go through the junkie topping off routine. Sometimes, the taste is great. Sometimes, not so great.

Disposables promise to end all those worries. Reliable, predictable vapor production. Same taste every time (I cannot imagine Kent cigarettes not tasting the same batch after batch; what a joke that would be to market). Known life span. Predictable cost outlays.

For all those reasons, I welcome the new disposables.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

With me it's convenience. I just hate the whole rigmarole. I don't even want to charge a battery. Buy, smoke, toss - bring it on and you've got my money.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

except people who have used them for an extended period report that there isnt a standard in performance of disposable carts...it can vary from cart to cart,and isnt necessarily predictable.

you actually dont get the same identical performance over and over ad infinitum.

but yes,at least you can toss the weak ones without much expense or hassle involved...unless you get a batch full of weak ones,of course...

 

[Spider]

I personally don't mind the messing about, and yes.. the unpredictability is a worry. As long as the price is reasonable (i.e. less than cigarettes, as TB said), I'm all for the disposables!

 

[trog100]

u are already getting disposables spider.. u just dont know it..

but i must emphasize here.. i am getting very good.. very consistent.. very reliable results from my currently chosen e devices.. all it requires is that i buy a new one very two weeks.. he he

i have gone into great detail as how to do this.. if people seem to be unable to take my advice onboard it aint my fault.. the cost is even reasonable as well..

we will get disposables.. these people are soon gona get tired of all the returns.. but and but again it aint gonna be cheap.. just like printer ink aint gonna be cheap..

if u want cheap u are gonna have to go none mainstream like i always do.. mainstream is rip-off land.. i am current typing this on an intel cpu based PC running at 4 gigahertz.. it calculates pi to one million decimal places in 10 seconds.. intel never intended me to do this.. he he he

trog

 

[Spider]

My, my, aren't we the pedantic one!

I know that the parts are disposable - I was referring to atomiser-cartridges sold as one item. I'm not one for discussing semantics.

 

[TropicalBob]

Sorry, but I don't accept that the present e-devices are either meant to be or are marketed as disposables. They're just flops, that's all. Failures. By their prices, I think all makers were hoping for a mass-market product success. Aside from some pricey Ruyan models, these are not aimed at the Rolls-Royce set.

Today, they have a mass-market failure on their hands -- and dedicated users salivating for salvation from true, daily disposable devices. Simple as a cigarette. That's what will succeed in the long run -- in my view. The RYO set will continue to buy spare parts and create Frankensmokers.

 

[Spider]

I agree TB, I don't think they are meant to be, or are marketed as disposable - but I do know that in a couple of weeks I will probably have to throw the atomiser I'm using away and get another one out of my little e-smoking box. It's just how it is until they make atomisers that will actually last.

 

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

trog opines, and he might well be right, that atomisers won't ever be long-lasting. Some of us are waiting for disposables for the buy, use, toss convenience of them. But not futzing around with returns is also a biggie.

Emp

 

[trog100]

course they aint being marketed as disposable.. but even ruyan has wised up with their latest offering.. their throw away e cigar.. they see the pitfalls now someone like me is buying into e smoking..

the idiots selling these things with long guarantees that have no relationship with the possible product life are gonna have to change and change quick..

let me tell them how to do it.. first the throw away ruyan e cigar.. not much of a problem here guarantee wise.. it is over when the battery runs out or the fluid runs out.. the atomizer should manage the perhaps 4 ml of fluid it has to vapourize before its layed off.. he he he

all the other dudes have to do is start the new atomizer replaced each time the cart is changed system going.. gee wow wizz.. the new products shouldnt have much of a problem here with atomizer failure.. all it will have to do is vapourze 1 ml of fluid before its retired..

the people with problems are gonna be the ones daft enough to be currently selling a product with a short life span but long guarantee..

but.. just like printer carts will never come cheap.. neither will the new e-cigs..

people will still be ripped off with high start up costs.. on top of this they will be forced to buy a new atomizer each time they change a cart.. the sellers.. well with the new atomizer system each time a cart is bought they have nicely lost their return nightmare..

what would i do with a ruyan disposable.. easy.. i would syringe fill the cart when the fluid runs out.. i would cut the end off the tube and fit a rechargeable battery..

course being really clever like the printer guys who fitted their carts with special time out chip to thwart the likes of me.. nah the e smoke dudes aint this clever..

if anyone on this forum thinks the days of cheap dispoables are about to arrive they really are living in cloud cuckoo.. the coming new cart come atomizer system will provide a more reliable device.. it wont be for the likes of me thow.. i wont be able to afford the price of new the proprietory carts..

trog

 

[clavit]

what would i do with a ruyan disposable.. easy.. i would syringe fill the cart when the fluid runs out.. i would cut the end off the tube and fit a rechargeable battery..
trog

My sentiments exactly! Part of me can't for my Ruyan Vegas to die so i can figure out how to refill it. I'm hoping to also get a look at the atomizer design in this thing.
Mind you, this won't be a cost-cutting exercise, i'm only doing this for science/improving the breed/whatever....
In other words: i can't help myself ;-)

 

[jamie]

when they come new they have some kind of absorbent wrapping or coating around the small wire wound heater coil... so far i have only looked at well used ones... i see what looks like black charred crud around the heater coil... i need to see the brand new coils before they gets used...

All my new atomizers have beige something visible underneath the steel wool bridge, it appears to be a wrapping. Eventually the beige something becomes "charred and hard looking" as you noted, and I start seeing tiny black particles here and there inside the atomizer.

 

[jamie]

Hi Trog

I think you're on the right track here. You might not have seen this thread because it was mostly active while you were away. Posts 55, 73, 115 & 173 have pics or video, and you'll be particularly interested in 173 as it's a cart-smasher (newish cart).

Emp

Hey Emp. I think you are referencing another thread but I'm not seeing a link or a thread title. ??