1. 2009 year data is very outdated. Most (all?) ECF member use now much more effective nicotine delivery systems.
2. Chain vaping is rather a norm now and vaper can easily go higher in nicotine consumption than smoker (see research of Dr. F-s)
Companies moving away from high nic levels?
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1. 2009 year data is very outdated. Most (all?) ECF member use now much more effective nicotine delivery systems.
2. Chain vaping is rather a norm now and vaper can easily go higher in nicotine consumption than smoker (see research of Dr. F-s)
I have and the only one on the map in my general area is the store that I mentioned which closed down. It really sucks too because while they didn't have the greatest selection of mods, they did have a very large selection of their own juice.
Their staff was great as well and the first time I went in there, I was in a serious pinch. I lost my battery and tank while plowing and shoveling snow for over 20 hours and had $20 on me. Asked the owner what I could get before resorting to a pack of smokes and he hooked me up with a Kanger Evod, mini Pro Tank 2 and 10ml bottle of juice for the $20 that was in my pocket.
But people around here don't go to stores like that because we have that very large chain that everybody flocks to instead.
The next store on that map is about 45 minutes away which makes my only other option the small RYO Tobacco stores who only sells low quality liquid brands like Puff.
Sure there is. I use 18mg liquid in an eGO-type glassomizer with factory-built BDC atomizers. I suspect my puff count is significantly higher than it was with cigarettes. I wasn't quite beating cravings with my 16mg initial liquid, so I moved up. It's been about 45 days now. I might move down to 12mg-strength experimentally, in another month or so. So, am I crazy? What about the next heavy smoker that wants to quit, but doesn't want to build atomizers? Maybe we're all just a bit different, and that's OK.
I feel fine vaping 18mg. I've felt fine vaping 24mg. Feelings aren't science. When you say "it's a good thing" that companies aren't offering the "crazy" liquids other people want because of how you FEEL...well, that makes me feel a certain way too. You're not forced to buy them in the first place, you know. Stay off my lawn.
Hey, I like to read. Got a citation? Googling "Dr. F" is a little tedious.
You are aware I hope, that 18mg and 24mg are just 1.8 percent by volume and 2.4 percent by volume respectively?
Those arent crazy numbers at all.
I started off vaping 36 mg (was a 2 pack a day marlboro reds smoker before then) and I appreciate having the higher nicotine options as well as the ability to step down gradually 6mgs at a time.
In fact when I first started vaping 4+ years ago, 36 was pretty commonly offered by all juice suppliers. Its only been in recent years that its become scarce.
These stores that are only offering 12mg and under juice are turning customers away and pushing them back towards cigarettes IMO...just so they can afford to offer a greater variety of flavors on their shelves.
Limiting one option (different strengths) in favor of another (more flavors) seems incredibly short sighted in my opinion.
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While the frustration of high-nic vapers is understandable, so is the position of vape shops. You can't blame a company for not carrying a product that doesn't sell well. Keeping stock around on the hopes of catching a few people that might want it isn't a good idea for a company wanting to stay in business.
Vape shops in my area sell out of 6mg extremely quickly. Then the 12mg is next. Very rarely do I actually buy a bottle of 6mg juice, I usually have to buy multiple bottles of the same flavor and mix them to achieve my preferred 6mg. There is always some 18mg and usually some zero sitting on the shelf, but 6mg is more rare because it sells so fast. Judging by my juice orders online it's the same almost everywhere, as even web retailers are often out of 6mg but have other strengths.
Basically it's an issue of a small minority not getting what they want (high nic juice) so that the vast majority do get what they want (low nic juice) It's already hard to keep enough popular low-nic juice on the shelf, if they cut down that shelf space even more to provide higher nic juices for a few, then even greater numbers of people wont be able to get their desired nic level, which I thought we wanted to avoid!
If the nic content of your juice isn't high enough, all you have to do is add some 100mg nic base which will be a very tiny percentage of overall volume If your nic content is too high, you're pretty much screwed. You can mix different strengths, but then you have to hope the shop has the appropriate combination to reach the level you want. Not to mention spending 60-100 bucks on one flavor of juice because you had to buy multiple bottles. You can cut it with straight PG or VG, but then you sacrificing significant amounts of flavor.
I know it sucks, but it's not like you don't have options. Either way someone isn't getting what they want, at least the way it is now the majority is still happy.
Vape shops in my area sell out of 6mg extremely quickly. Then the 12mg is next. Very rarely do I actually buy a bottle of 6mg juice, I usually have to buy multiple bottles of the same flavor and mix them to achieve my preferred 6mg. There is always some 18mg and usually some zero sitting on the shelf, but 6mg is more rare because it sells so fast. Judging by my juice orders online it's the same almost everywhere, as even web retailers are often out of 6mg but have other strengths.
Basically it's an issue of a small minority not getting what they want (high nic juice) so that the vast majority do get what they want (low nic juice) It's already hard to keep enough popular low-nic juice on the shelf, if they cut down that shelf space even more to provide higher nic juices for a few, then even greater numbers of people wont be able to get their desired nic level, which I thought we wanted to avoid!
If the nic content of your juice isn't high enough, all you have to do is add some 100mg nic base which will be a very tiny percentage of overall volume If your nic content is too high, you're pretty much screwed. You can mix different strengths, but then you have to hope the shop has the appropriate combination to reach the level you want. Not to mention spending 60-100 bucks on one flavor of juice because you had to buy multiple bottles. You can cut it with straight PG or VG, but then you sacrificing significant amounts of flavor.
I know it sucks, but it's not like you don't have options. Either way someone isn't getting what they want, at least the way it is now the majority is still happy.
Never mind the citation request, I got a little motivated after posting. I presume you meant Dr. J Foulds' 2011 Study, which really didn't try to measure nic delivery via e-cig. They cite the 2009 Ruyan study I linked earlier, and mention another study by Vansickel et al using more experienced vapers. That put me on to...
Electronic cigarettes: effective nicotine delivery after acute administration (Vansickel/Eissenberg 2013)
This trial measured serum nicotine levels in the blood 8 experienced vapers with choice of mod and liquid. One used 24mg liquid, one used 9mg liquid, and the other six used 18mg liquid. In short, yes, vaping is now more effective at nic delivery than it was in Runyan 2009, but no, vapers cannot "easily go higher in nicotine consumption than smokers."
The 2009 trial results are still useful because they measured serum nicotine for real smokers, who achieved a mean blood level of 18.8 ng/ml after smoking two cigarettes (Marlboro Reds).
In the 2013 trial, the big vapers with their crazy-strong liquids achieved mean serum levels of 10 ng/ml after 10 puffs in 5 minutes. They were able to approach a 2-ciggy level of bloodstream nic (mean level about 16 ng/ml), but only after ad-lib vaping for an entire hour. For the first 30 minutes of the ad-lib period, they hung tough around the initial 10 ng/ml level.
In short, a vaper's really gotta be working hard in order to nic-up bigger than a smoker, even with a 24mg-strength liquid.
While the frustration of high-nic vapers is understandable, so is the position of vape shops. You can't blame a company for not carrying a product that doesn't sell well. Keeping stock around on the hopes of catching a few people that might want it isn't a good idea for a company wanting to stay in business.
Vape shops in my area sell out of 6mg extremely quickly. Then the 12mg is next. Very rarely do I actually buy a bottle of 6mg juice, I usually have to buy multiple bottles of the same flavor and mix them to achieve my preferred 6mg. There is always some 18mg and usually some zero sitting on the shelf, but 6mg is more rare because it sells so fast. Judging by my juice orders online it's the same almost everywhere, as even web retailers are often out of 6mg but have other strengths.
Basically it's an issue of a small minority not getting what they want (high nic juice) so that the vast majority do get what they want (low nic juice) It's already hard to keep enough popular low-nic juice on the shelf, if they cut down that shelf space even more to provide higher nic juices for a few, then even greater numbers of people wont be able to get their desired nic level, which I thought we wanted to avoid!
If the nic content of your juice isn't high enough, all you have to do is add some 100mg nic base which will be a very tiny percentage of overall volume If your nic content is too high, you're pretty much screwed. You can mix different strengths, but then you have to hope the shop has the appropriate combination to reach the level you want. Not to mention spending 60-100 bucks on one flavor of juice because you had to buy multiple bottles. You can cut it with straight PG or VG, but then you sacrificing significant amounts of flavor.
I know it sucks, but it's not like you don't have options. Either way someone isn't getting what they want, at least the way it is now the majority is still happy.
Probably the best business model in the long run will be for wholesalers to provide concentrates that retailers can dilute to desired nicotine strength. Everyone wins.
With Halo and Mr E-Liquid, you can get higher nic levels from them directly over the web. One other option is to buy a bottle of 100mg nic liquid and use it to raise the nic levels of what's available nearby.
That store does sell Mr eLiquid but unfortunately I find the flavors to be very muted. My best results were with their Strawberry Ice but I probably still wouldn't buy it again.
My guess would be a combination of those doses not selling as well (hook me up though, love that ....) and the fact that governments and health agencies around the world are starting to pay attention to this stuff, and mostly not in a good way. Personally if I was selling the stuff myself I wouldn't offer higher doses either, lower doses mean less chance of someone getting hurt by someone screwing up. Like spilling and not noticing and having your dog lick it up or having a kid get their hands on it. And let's face it, its just a matter of time until someone decides to drink the bottle. That .... is going on the news, and they news is going to mention companies that sold them the stuff. Even undeserved bad publicity is still bad publicity. Especially since people aren't going to bother educating themselves about it before demonizing the whole industry. Store owners are probably just being careful.
But here's what I don't get. They have one brand that they are pushing at nic levels up to 24mg but unfortunately it isn't very premium. Then they have those really bad eLiquid brands they sell for like $3 for 10ml which come straight out of China and tastes like perfume. So they do have 18 and 24mg juices. But when it comes to anything premium, it's 12mg or less.While the frustration of high-nic vapers is understandable, so is the position of vape shops. You can't blame a company for not carrying a product that doesn't sell well. Keeping stock around on the hopes of catching a few people that might want it isn't a good idea for a company wanting to stay in business.
Vape shops in my area sell out of 6mg extremely quickly. Then the 12mg is next. Very rarely do I actually buy a bottle of 6mg juice, I usually have to buy multiple bottles of the same flavor and mix them to achieve my preferred 6mg. There is always some 18mg and usually some zero sitting on the shelf, but 6mg is more rare because it sells so fast. Judging by my juice orders online it's the same almost everywhere, as even web retailers are often out of 6mg but have other strengths.
Basically it's an issue of a small minority not getting what they want (high nic juice) so that the vast majority do get what they want (low nic juice) It's already hard to keep enough popular low-nic juice on the shelf, if they cut down that shelf space even more to provide higher nic juices for a few, then even greater numbers of people wont be able to get their desired nic level, which I thought we wanted to avoid!
If the nic content of your juice isn't high enough, all you have to do is add some 100mg nic base which will be a very tiny percentage of overall volume If your nic content is too high, you're pretty much screwed. You can mix different strengths, but then you have to hope the shop has the appropriate combination to reach the level you want. Not to mention spending 60-100 bucks on one flavor of juice because you had to buy multiple bottles. You can cut it with straight PG or VG, but then you sacrificing significant amounts of flavor.
I know it sucks, but it's not like you don't have options. Either way someone isn't getting what they want, at least the way it is now the majority is still happy.
And again. They said they are stocking these juices like this because because they are promoting RDA's and people who want to vape giant clouds. So they are going to sell those people premium juice and the rest of us, garbage?
Is it that smart to cut out people like myself who have used this store for years, buying RYO tobacco? Most people I know who vape are former smokers who use higher nic levels because it's the only thing that keeps them from smoking. Now being the 7th largest tobacco chain in the country, you would think their main vape customer would be those of us who are highly addicted to nicotine.
It does seem pretty lame to me. Some people need 24 mg or more on regular equipment to keep the cravings at bay. Sounds as if they are using the premium brands to draw people in to then end up with their crappy (and much more profitable) house brands. I tried a couple there and they are truly foul.
I was just in there a little while ago looking for Kanthal and it appears they don't really even know what they are doing in there.
I wanted a roll of 30g only to find out they don't sell it. I ended up with an overpriced 30ft roll of 28g which was their only roll. They had a lot of 100ft rolls but only in 26g and under.
The guy tried to convince me that rebuilding is for sub-ohms and drippers. He told me my MVP 2.0 wasn't any good and continued on about how I should buy a DNA 30 and TOBH ATTY clone.
Perhaps I'm partially complaining for no reason. I just built my first Kayfun and my 24mg juice seems to be too much now. 24mg is what I need with my Nautilus and iClear but it seems that I'm going to have to cut back for my Kayfun.
This is good that I can try out some of these other brands now but it still sucks on my other equipment and for the general consumer who doesn't plan on buying any serious mods. I'm going to test out an old 12ml bottle of Subzero tomorrow that I bought when I was first trying to find my strength.
This is good that I can try out some of these other brands now but it still sucks on my other equipment and for the general consumer who doesn't plan on buying any serious mods. I'm going to test out an old 12ml bottle of Subzero tomorrow that I bought when I was first trying to find my strength.
I'm checking back in to report I believe I've discovered that Alien Traveler's reference to "Dr. F-s" must be Konstatinos Farsalinos, a researcher and cardiologist who advocates vaping as a replacement for cigarette smoking. He's a figure of well-deserved respect around here, and I'm glad to learn about him. Just in case I'm not the last person who didn't know, lots of his vaping related research can be explored HERE.
I couldn't find any studies of serum nicotine levels like those I've linked before, but his research certainly supports the sale of strong-nic juices.
This June 2013 study compared nicotine delivery rate (strictly consumption, not absorption) for vaping versus cigarette smoking, and vaping versus nicotine inhalers. It concludes that 21mg-strength juice would be needed to match cigarettes, and that 24mg-strength juice would be needed to match nicotine inhalers. It also makes the case that these are conservative estimates of the needed strength.
This September 2013 study studied the vaping habits of more than 100 subjects who had quit smoking for at least a month with the sole aid of vaping. 81% of subjects reported using 16-20mg juices or higher when they managed to quit. The median time to quit smoking from starting vaping was 1 month. The median length of vaping experience at interview time was 8 months, at which point 62% of subjects reported still using juices from 11-20mg or higher nicotine strength.
It should be noted that these results were both presented to the EU while they were considering the proposed regulation of e-liquid strength down to 4mg or less. Unless we want governments to apply this sort of strict control over the products we enjoy, we should all be supporting the sale of higher-nic liquids. There are plenty of smokers out there, and we want them to become successful quitters too.
I couldn't find any studies of serum nicotine levels like those I've linked before, but his research certainly supports the sale of strong-nic juices.
This June 2013 study compared nicotine delivery rate (strictly consumption, not absorption) for vaping versus cigarette smoking, and vaping versus nicotine inhalers. It concludes that 21mg-strength juice would be needed to match cigarettes, and that 24mg-strength juice would be needed to match nicotine inhalers. It also makes the case that these are conservative estimates of the needed strength.
This September 2013 study studied the vaping habits of more than 100 subjects who had quit smoking for at least a month with the sole aid of vaping. 81% of subjects reported using 16-20mg juices or higher when they managed to quit. The median time to quit smoking from starting vaping was 1 month. The median length of vaping experience at interview time was 8 months, at which point 62% of subjects reported still using juices from 11-20mg or higher nicotine strength.
It should be noted that these results were both presented to the EU while they were considering the proposed regulation of e-liquid strength down to 4mg or less. Unless we want governments to apply this sort of strict control over the products we enjoy, we should all be supporting the sale of higher-nic liquids. There are plenty of smokers out there, and we want them to become successful quitters too.
Sooo...... let me get this straight..... correct me if I'm wrong........ Vape shops are pushing high watts and liquid eating equipment that goes through about four times the liquid of a more modest setup.... not selling higher nicotine liquid and pushing low nicotine....... so they can sell four times the low nicotine liquid.
Sounds like a good scam they have going
Just so you folks know, I do RDA's exclusively, with modest builds, normally at about 1.7, single coil, and using 18 or 24 mg, never anything less. But of course I don't have the need to chain vape so I can actually put the thing down.
Sounds like a good scam they have going
Just so you folks know, I do RDA's exclusively, with modest builds, normally at about 1.7, single coil, and using 18 or 24 mg, never anything less. But of course I don't have the need to chain vape so I can actually put the thing down.
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Ive worked at a couple brick and mortars over the years and some of you would be shocked at what goes on there.
Salespeople are told to push specific products because of higher profit margins or in the case of sub ohm setups, opportunities to sell more juice, kanthal, etc
I once watched the manager of a store sell this guy a Vamo when the first sentence out of the customers mouth was "I need something tough and reliable that I can charge while driving". He totally skipped over the MVP because the price point of those is set and the profits are small.
Next time youre in a B&M ask them about cartos tanks. If they even carry them, they will probably try to sell you a clearomizer instead because the profit margin is higher and they can sell you 5 packs of replacement heads.
Carto tanks are just too reliable for them to make much money off of.
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