DIY Atomizer anybody?

[madog]

Still working with it, trying different ideas - I will post pics of my latest design soon - I tore it all apart because the first design didn't work to my expectations - but I will succeed - I learned a lot with the glo-plugs and with my first design. I am trying to make it a nested 2 part design making it super easy to replace the homemade coils. The mounting is no problem - just working on airflow and vapor production.

 

[mu.zeitgeist]

Hey Madog, thanks for the reply.
My Intellicig and Janty KB Classic atomizers run at least $18+ and shipping and handling. It's murder on the wallet.

True, same wattage with lower voltage would draw more current. But since atomizers are purely resistive (other than slight induction at start up) devices it should be self limiting the current.

If you give the atomizer 3v @ 4ohms it will draw 750mA current, or 2.25Watts.
If you give the same atomizer 1v @ 4ohms it will draw 0.25A, or 0.25Watts.

This is all just at basic though. Once the nickel chromium wire gets hot, the ohmic value is going to be completely different. And the ohms law is just what we need to achieve what we want. We want liquid to vapor state change, which is watts.

Watts into calories;
3W = 43cal
1gPG(l) -> 1gPG(v) = 250cal assuming or:
.2g of PG(l) -> .2g of PG(v) = 50cal

In the case of a glow plug, we know the specs. It generates about 800C degrees for any duration @ 1.2V 2300mA so its a 2.76 Watt device. Which is more than sufficient to be a vapor master, if it really is 50cal to change the state of .2g of PG from liquid to vapor. I haven't found any information regarding PG's state change but so far I have not had a problem doing any work at this rate.

I will go get some nichrome wire though and some other parts that I think work could be done with. It was just an idea, I still think glow plugs are a good idea because of the operating characteristics and the self sinking helps to burn in open air. To be honest IF a modified glow plug would work as an atomizer, it will probably be the last atomizer ever purchased for a lifetime. The unreliability of atomizers is an issue with E-Cigs, I see some have had better luck, but I've had one that ran crappy since day 3, another burned out in 2-3 weeks.

Everything causes cancer in the state of california Besides they tried to ban foam cups because it produces Dihydrogen Monoxide as a bi-product during manufacturing process, it's best not to take our southerly neighbors too seriously.

 

[madog]

True, same wattage with lower voltage would draw more current. But since atomizers are purely resistive (other than slight induction at start up) devices it should be self limiting the current.

If you give the atomizer 3v @ 4ohms it will draw 750mA current, or 2.25Watts.
If you give the same atomizer 1v @ 4ohms it will draw 0.25A, or 0.25Watts.

This is all just at basic though. Once the nickel chromium wire gets hot, the ohmic value is going to be completely different. And the ohms law is just what we need to achieve what we want. We want liquid to vapor state change, which is watts.

Watts into calories;
3W = 43cal
1gPG(l) -> 1gPG(v) = 250cal assuming or:
.2g of PG(l) -> .2g of PG(v) = 50cal

In the case of a glow plug, we know the specs. It generates about 800C degrees for any duration @ 1.2V 2300mA so its a 2.76 Watt device.

Yes I agree - All I am saying is with a lower voltage device you are going to use more current = Shorter Battery life (or find a suitable PWM circuit - But then you will have circuit loss also and have more crap to fail)
Most of the 901 atomizers I have tested are a around 3.7 Ohms and a OEM battery starts at 4.2 off a fresh charge and drops from there. Assuming 3.7 volts and a 3.7 ohm atomizer you are at 1 amp of current and 3.7 watts of power (vs. your 2.76 watts)- 1 watt more power is needed to reach 901 OEM specs and IMHO those specs suck (OEM) - the magnum is using the same atomizer at around 6.5 volts and is theoretically generating around 10 Watts of power from a OEM atomizer.

AND agreed - all this gets thrown all out the window once the coil heats up with the resistance change.

Again I agree the glo-plug could, should, and will probably work but I am after a completely DIY device that I can fix and maintain just about anywhere. Hell I could probably jamb a chunk of paper clip in the damn socket i am working on and at least get one good vape. Murphy and I go way back -

DITTO on the California thing - Hell they should probably just stop breathing down there -

Maybe the answer is just an adapter from your ecig to a generic 901 atomizer. I know not very "innovative" - I would rather do it myself too!

PS - I think PG change state is somewhere around 150-160 F

 

[katink]

Pass-throughs (usb) work on 5 volt - seeing batteries are getting less used, and pass-throughs on comp, wall-adaptor and batterypacks are getting used more and more, wouldn't it be a good thing to make these atomizers to work well with those, instead of concentrating on only the single-battery power?

 

[mu.zeitgeist]

Yes I agree - All I am saying is with a lower voltage device you are going to use more current = Shorter Battery life (or find a suitable PWM circuit - But then you will have circuit loss also and have more crap to fail)
Most of the 901 atomizers I have tested are a around 3.7 Ohms and a OEM battery starts at 4.2 off a fresh charge and drops from there. Assuming 3.7 volts and a 3.7 ohm atomizer you are at 1 amp of current and 3.7 watts of power (vs. your 2.76 watts)- 1 watt more power is needed to reach 901 OEM specs and IMHO those specs suck (OEM) - the magnum is using the same atomizer at around 6.5 volts and is theoretically generating around 10 Watts of power from a OEM atomizer.

AND agreed - all this gets thrown all out the window once the coil heats up with the resistance change.

Again I agree the glo-plug could, should, and will probably work but I am after a completely DIY device that I can fix and maintain just about anywhere. Hell I could probably jamb a chunk of paper clip in the damn socket i am working on and at least get one good vape. Murphy and I go way back -

DITTO on the California thing - Hell they should probably just stop breathing down there -

Maybe the answer is just an adapter from your ecig to a generic 901 atomizer. I know not very "innovative" - I would rather do it myself too!

PS - I think PG change state is somewhere around 150-160 F

I hear that. I did get the glow plug to work finally after 3 destroyed plugs.
I used a metal hair clip wrapped with fiberglass to jam into the coil as a wick. The vapor is about as good as my DSE901, but as you stated the battery life is quite impotent with glow plugs. Even at the higher voltages and current limiter I was running the power draw seemed inefficient. Not to mention the plugs were getting so hot it was difficult to have mouth to cartridge contact without burning my lips.

Madog you were totally right on the money. I used a toy from radio shack called a Stamp card to buid a PWM and a smaller relay which ended up being inconvenient and yes, even more power draw for the circuit, more crap to fail. I'm sure reliability is down a few notches from a "usable" ecig as well.

So it's back to square one with DIY ecig. I'm beginning to think Madog's solution is the most practical, best way to go about this. What kind of wick are you using for your atomizer by the way?

Anyway it's Saturday and my kissbox classic kit and charger box still have not arrived from Janty I wonder why the tracking number they send never works?

 

[mu.zeitgeist]

Pass-throughs (usb) work on 5 volt - seeing batteries are getting less used, and pass-throughs on comp, wall-adaptor and batterypacks are getting used more and more, wouldn't it be a good thing to make these atomizers to work well with those, instead of concentrating on only the single-battery power?

I think the atomizers already work great on 5v? From what I see the anywhere from 4-7v is the norm, and the lower voltage batteries are underrunning the atomizers. Will find out though, I am getting my KB here soon (or should be) and i will see what it takes to break the 901 atomizer via over voltage.

 

[katink]

As far as I have understood things about the kissbox: the battery that is in the wire is actualy what you are smoking from; and the battery in turn gets charged by the usb.
And this was done precisely to get the 5v down to the usual 3.7v... so you won't be experiencing a 5v vape from the kissbox. While a lot of the other pass-throughs do not have this in place, they get the full 5v or near to that, as I understand at least.
About the atomizers: they aren't all built the same - for instance the atomizers from heaven-gifts (wayne) are said to be made especially to work well on 5v, while a lot of others are built with 3.7 in mind. While of course both do have a range within which they will function, the wear and tear on one with a coil set up for 3.7 should be larger then one with a (thicker?) coil set up for 5v. (I'm on the process of trying this out, using both kinds at the moment - have had 2 atomizers made for 3.7 fail sofar, and the first one made for 5v still functioning just fine... but that can be coincidence so giving it a longer try-out before really making up my mind whether it's one way or the other)

 

[mu.zeitgeist]

As far as I have understood things about the kissbox: the battery that is in the wire is actualy what you are smoking from; and the battery in turn gets charged by the usb.
And this was done precisely to get the 5v down to the usual 3.7v... so you won't be experiencing a 5v vape from the kissbox. While a lot of the other pass-throughs do not have this in place, they get the full 5v or near to that, as I understand at least.
About the atomizers: they aren't all built the same - for instance the atomizers from heaven-gifts (wayne) are said to be made especially to work well on 5v, while a lot of others are built with 3.7 in mind. While of course both do have a range within which they will function, the wear and tear on one with a coil set up for 3.7 should be larger then one with a (thicker?) coil set up for 5v. (I'm on the process of trying this out, using both kinds at the moment - have had 2 atomizers made for 3.7 fail sofar, and the first one made for 5v still functioning just fine... but that can be coincidence so giving it a longer try-out before really making up my mind whether it's one way or the other)

I would think it is hard to build an atomizer rated at 5v to run consistantly and give good vapor at 3.7v. But to be honest it's a liquid cooled piece of wire. Just as long as the coils are short enough that the low voltage still allows massive current through, should work.

Where did you get the 5v only atomizer? And how does it fair with the 3.7v batteries? I mean that is one way to get the atomizers to last a very long time.

Currently trying out some different resistors with empire tube wrapped around it for atomizer design.
12VDC seems to be best. I have absolutely no clue why but heats up quicker with high voltage high value over low voltage low value. This would be a VERY easy to replace design and could be made with absolutely no soldered contacts on the atomizer itself. See what comes of it Can the Madog shed some light if he has tried working with regular 1/4watters?

 

[madog]

MU - I am having a hell of a time sourcing anything at the length around 1/2 to 1 inch that I can still see to end up with a 3-6 ohm coil - I did think about a small wire wound resistor in the 5- 10 watt range but damn they are huge I have to find a better - and convenient source for a High resistant wire that is readily available. Dan I out a probe to this thing and it is hitting Also 400 F - A little to warm I am off to find a 10 ohm resistor. Man that would be sweet and cheap even if they only last a day

 

[katink]

Where did you get the 5v only atomizer? And how does it fair with the 3.7v batteries? I mean that is one way to get the atomizers to last a very long time.

Currently trying out some different resistors with empire tube wrapped around it for atomizer design.
12VDC seems to be best. I have absolutely no clue why but heats up quicker with high voltage high value over low voltage low value. This would be a VERY easy to replace design and could be made with absolutely no soldered contacts on the atomizer itself. See what comes of it Can the Madog shed some light if he has tried working with regular 1/4watters?

Not 5v only, but built for 5v rather then for 3.7v - both have a range they work in; just the 5v is/seems better in handling the higher ranges... and all that I said before is what I read about them, on other forums- so now testing for myself what the difference would be in reality. I almost only use usb and powerpack myself nowadays, but the 5v-atomizer works 'okay' on 3.7 in the short time I tried that, so 3.7 is within it's range I would say. And it's from heaven gifts (Wayne). It's too early to say for sure... but for now I have the impression that it's one of the better/stronger atomizers I have found so far (found another kind of atomizer that was real good much earlier, a 'backdoor-ruyan' with the name 'Sigwood', but sadly that one isn't available anymore, at a certain point it was replaced by a lesser atomizer sold under the same name).

Looking forward to what you and Madog come up with going the path you are now.

 

[mu.zeitgeist]

MU - I am having a hell of a time sourcing anything at the length around 1/2 to 1 inch that I can still see to end up with a 3-6 ohm coil - I did think about a small wire wound resistor in the 5- 10 watt range but damn they are huge I have to find a better - and convenient source for a High resistant wire that is readily available. Dan I out a probe to this thing and it is hitting Also 400 F - A little to warm I am off to find a 10 ohm resistor. Man that would be sweet and cheap even if they only last a day

Heating up a 5-10 watt resistor sounds badass! DALE makes some metal heatsinked resistors of smaller wattage ratings. They are pretty compact but hardy and underrated.

Is too much heat a problem for vaporizors? I have it in my head that high temp = instant + most vapor production but is this not true from your designs?

I need to go get an array of low ohm 1/4W resistors Monday to continue some more trialing and erring. I have only my weak-o DSE901 to compare vapor production to and so far I haven't reliably vaped more than 1drop PG/45sec with 120ohms. And I unfortnately don't have anything less. Also need to stock up on empire tubes.

This will give you the values you want @ normal temps:
Nichrome wire .003 in dia. 68 ohm/ft. Over 2000 ft - eBay (item 120380675689 end time Feb-25-09 13:40:41 PST)

All 2000ft of it, I'll go half and half on this I need some lying around anyway

 

[Kevin]

Interesting discussion fellows.

FWIW my usb passthrough puts out 4.23v

 

[Ripley]

I've been browsing around the different threads regarding rebuilding of atomizers, and think I may have found something that you guys can work with.

A poster on TW lists the resistance wire in the atomizer at .1mm. IF that's correct, that's roughly .004 inches OD, or 38 AWG. It's pretty small but easily available to the public.

Here's a good site for the technical date for Chromel-A/Nichrome 80 up to 50 AWG

http://www.resistancewire.com/Html/Technical/AlloyDataTables/PDFDocs/ADT2001.12.17.HAA.ENG.pdf


My question is, has anyone actually measured the wire in the atomizer so we know what size we need?

 

[DaveyRoots]

trog has for sure and id be willing to bet hes got one of those nice michrometers or whatever there called to measure it

 

[kinabaloo]

With a ban possible and perhaps imminent, my attention is less now on making a better atomiser - it is on being able to make one at all. That is, not a better design that hopefully a company can run with but something we as individuals can put together if a ban ensues.

Any element that is repeatedly heated and cooled to a high temperature is never going to last too long because of the movement caused by expansion and contraction. Some exotic materials such as graphites and ceramics would fare much better in this respect because the element, though small would be more solid, not a fine coil. Given that the metal wicking material leading to the heater also clogs up in a month or two, the smart choice now is to work on a 2-month atomiser. So it's a matter of finding the right wire and right wick material (for inside the coil). Beyond that, modifying the atomiser case so that the inner ceramic ring, coil, metal wick (as a unit, like now) can be easily slipped out would be handy, as would a new contacts mechanism so soldering in a new innards would not be necessary (as when batteries are slipped into a torch say).

Longshot, and perhaps not very useful : If someone has interest, a pure (non-toxic, unlike a resistor) substance that might be suitable for heating (though not coiling) is graphite in the form of a pencil lead (particularly the fine ones used in retractable pencils) - these just might have a suitable resistance for a short piece.

 

[Di]

yes it needs to be 3 pieces

1 - the bottom housing that has the attomizer inside
the attomizer should protrude above the screw onto battery thread sides

2 - 2nd bit, the actual coil and bridge bits should be removeable,
click in click out so easily replaced as needed.

3 - 3rd bit, just the empty tube for length and to hold the cartridge, slips or screws over the other 2 bits to make 1 completed piece.

So --- 2 - is the hard bit, but this renewable attomizer would be a fantastic invention, and a millionaire maker !!!!!

Di .......

 

[Lithium1330]

With a ban possible and perhaps imminent, my attention is less now on making a better atomiser - it is on being able to make one at all. That is, not a better design that hopefully a company can run with but something we as individuals can put together if a ban ensues.

Any element that is repeatedly heated and cooled to a high temperature is never going to last too long because of the movement caused by expansion and contraction. Some exotic materials such as graphites and ceramics would fare much better in this respect because the element, though small would be more solid, not a fine coil. Given that the metal wicking material leading to the heater also clogs up in a month or two, the smart choice now is to work on a 2-month atomiser. So it's a matter of finding the right wire and right wick material (for inside the coil). Beyond that, modifying the atomiser case so that the inner ceramic ring, coil, metal wick (as a unit, like now) can be easily slipped out would be handy, as would a new contacts mechanism so soldering in a new innards would not be necessary (as when batteries are slipped into a torch say).

Longshot, and perhaps not very useful : If someone has interest, a pure (non-toxic, unlike a resistor) substance that might be suitable for heating (though not coiling) is graphite in the form of a pencil lead (particularly the fine ones used in retractable pencils) - these just might have a suitable resistance for a short piece.

what about using something like this?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ere-better-atomizer-design-10.html#post124292

might work...

 

[kinabaloo]

Those have potential and I am still interested in a halogen bulb heater (glass surface with new mechanism such as manual switch also activates a quirt of mist via a nozzle onto lamp, no wick - though the nozzle part is perhaps over engineering), but for now feel a wire heater will be simplest. After all, it works well, and battery life will inevitably improve as new batteries come along.

Even complete atomisers are quite cheap, but it still makes sense to replace just the innards. The important thing though is how to make those innards ...

Halogen bulb heater : The GH140 (4v/4w) bulb http://www.reflectalite.com/halogenpage.html looks a good possibility ... The glass part of the bulb can snuzzle directly into the metal wick. And with no fibre part, and halogen bulb's long life - with cleaning this atomiser really might last over a year, or more ...

 

[BJ43]

The Zibro-Camin must be a non-US thing. If it's similar to one of those electronic stove top heater elements I can imagine its a pretty damn powerful and long lasting vapor producer.


KEROSENE HEATER IGNITERS

Sears sells these heaters and igniters

 

[Cymri]

The Zibro-Camin must be a non-US thing. If it's similar to one of those electronic stove top heater elements I can imagine its a pretty damn powerful and long lasting vapor producer.


KEROSENE HEATER IGNITERS

Sears sells these heaters and igniters

I don't know whether or not those could hold up very long to frequent use, but looking at those pics it sure does suggest an elegant design idea for atomizer elements. It would be great to have a simple plug in replacement like that