"freezing" juice?

[kinabaloo]

I don't know quite why, instinct, gut feeling (same thing, different words ), but I just get the feeling of total honesty from Sun. I think he's stepped out of a comfort zone once again (I don't think I was here the first time) just to help others with what he feels is truth. I believe he did lose a lot of liquid while stored in the refrigerator and as he stated, it was different liquids from different companies, so the culprit wasn't a certain mixture from a certain company.

I think most of us, I know I do, feel that keeping items in the refrigerator is a safety factor, keeping an item cool keeps it fresh and protects it from breaking down and becoming unusable. I know I've kept cigarettes in the refrigerator, batteries, and so much more and it's always worked so it's difficult for me to step out of this comfort zone, especially with something that has cost me a lot of money, something that might get banned so it's that much more important to protect it. On top of that DH is soon retiring and I'm trying to get up enough e-liquid, etc. so that the first year or so will be cost free with my vaping.

I have this really strong feeling, perhaps Sun's honesty and desire to help others avoid going through what he did, that it's important to keep the liquid out of the refrigerator. So until I feel otherwise, and get information that convinces me otherwise, I for one will keep the liquid out of the refrigerator.

That being said, I guess all that is left is, thank you Sun.

Sorry to hear you base your decision on one person' story. If that's the way to learn we'd never learn anything.

So much for the reasearch in terms of suppliers and manufacturer that you said you'd do. After just reply that didnt fit your preconception, jump to conclusion!

 

[shivadance]

Sorry to hear you base your decision on one person' story. If that's the way to learn we'd never learn anything.

Awfully glib comment there, kinabaloo.

Humanity has a long oral tradition of stories and moral lessions handed down by the storyteller from generation to generation. I never doubt there are lessons to be learned even if only learned and told one at a time.

I don't fully agree with keeping juice out of the fridge, but I'd sure need a reason before putting it there. I'm glad sun has told his story so at least people can be aware that it has happened.

My house is a cool, refreshing 71 degrees thanks to my heat intolerant brother. No issues storing liquid in my closet!

 

[kinabaloo]

Awfully glib comment there, kinabaloo.

Humanity has a long oral tradition of stories and moral lessions handed down by the storyteller from generation to generation. I never doubt there are lessons to be learned even if only learned and told one at a time.

I don't fully agree with keeping juice out of the fridge, but I'd sure need a reason before putting it there. I'm glad sun has told his story so at least people can be aware that it has happened.

My house is a cool, refreshing 71 degrees thanks to my heat intolerant brother. No issues storing liquid in my closet!

I am taking into account these stories; I think the issue is open; which is why it is dissappointing that the person who says that they will look into it, jumps to a conclusion only hours later.

Air tight and out of daylight are most important. Temp may not make much difference. But if anything cooler is very likely to be better; it is for most things.

 

[SharonLM]

Sorry to hear you base your decision on one person' story. If that's the way to learn we'd never learn anything.

So much for the reasearch in terms of suppliers and manufacturer that you said you'd do. After just reply that didnt fit your preconception, jump to conclusion!

Oh kinabaloo, talk about jumping to conclusions. I stated I had already written 6 or was it 7 suppliers. I printed one of the answers already and reported two of the others are checking with their suppliers so they could give us an answer from the source. I said I would continue to report and I will. How in the world did you conclude, because I removed my e-liquid from the refrigerator that I was no longer going to do the research and copy it here?

I simply choose to take mine out of the refrigerator until I get information from the little bit of research I'm trying to do that shows me that it'd be wise to put it back in.

I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm choosing to (my choice) follow Sun's advice.

No worries, I'll report if I get emails back.

 

[dedmonwakin]

Wow, how could such a cold subject, become such a heated debate?

 

[kinabaloo]

Oh kinabaloo, talk about jumping to conclusions. I stated I had already written 6 or was it 7 suppliers. I printed one of the answers already and reported two of the others are checking with their suppliers so they could give us an answer from the source. I said I would continue to report and I will. How in the world did you conclude, because I removed my e-liquid from the refrigerator that I was no longer going to do the research and copy it here?

I simply choose to take mine out of the refrigerator until I get information from the little bit of research I'm trying to do that shows me that it'd be wise to put it back in.

I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm choosing to (my choice) follow Sun's advice.

No worries, I'll report if I get emails back.

"So until I feel otherwise, and get information that convinces me otherwise, I for one will keep the liquid out of the refrigerator.

That being said, I guess all that is left is, thank you Sun."

If this meant "I will continue to report", then great

 

[crazyhorse]

Dekang Biotechnology and subsidiaries recommend refrigerated storage. The Dekang rep who posts on the forum suggests 4°C is ideal. This is 39.2°F

Reference to the below quotes will be found in post #7 of http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...er-all-your-e-liquid-questions-consumers.html

"The main factor influencing e-liquid shelf life is bacterial contamination. E-liquid contains sugar and are therefore prone bacterial contamination."

AND

"For long term storage, please keep your e-liquid in a dark cool place. The fridge (4 degree C) would be ideal. In addition, keeping it in an airtight container will also help."

Personally, I keep my e-liquids in the warm area of a 36° F refrigerator. I remove only enough to last for days at the time and the supply bottles immediately return to refrigerated storage. Not much experience here but after three months of this, my liquids are all as good as new. Even the ones that are drained to 20% or less are just fine. Of course, the ones that were born foul remain so but that is to be expected.

 

[SharonLM]

Wow, how could such a cold subject, become such a heated debate?

Lovely sense of humor, I think we needed that smile.

OK, another report just came in:

Quote of an email:

Sharon, I checked with our e-liquid manufacturer and the e-liquid should be
stored in a dark cool place and will stay good for a year. If you store it
in the refrigerator, it will stay good for 2 years. The ideal storage
temperature is between 32 and 50 degrees Fahrenheit. I hope I have
addressed your question appropriately.

Let your e-cig forum friends know that storing the e-liquid in the
refrigerator will actually make it stay good for a year longer. I'd say it
would be advisable to store it in the refrigerator during the summer months,
especially if you do not have air conditioning.

Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Thanks,
eCigSmokersChoice

 

[kinabaloo]

Wow, how could such a cold subject, become such a heated debate?

Just a debate, and some passion. I want to open my e-fridge and offer everyone an e-beer or e-choc-ice

There are some related issues worth looking at - such as whether plastic is wise for the long term (might be slightly air permeable) or leech ~~~ (forget the name, has been in the news re ready meals and babies bottles).

 

[Rexa]

I read through all these posts and I recall a supplier a few months ago saying (and I specifically remember it being a woman but I do not remember who it was) that she stores everything in a fridge at a constant temperature of 39-40 F.

Now I don't know if this was a special fridge specifally designated for storing e-liquid.

Perhaps industrial-type/expensive fridges are more suitable and stable for properly storing eliquids versus a typical everyday fridge where if something goes wrong (like a couple of my fridges from the past) and stuff starts turning frosty.

 

[chuckie]

I guess we won't know what happens with freezing juice until someone freezes it, thaws it out 2 yrs latter and gives a report.

 

[RjG]

I've been doing some some Googling

I't's fairly common knowledge here on the forum of Propylene Glycol's anti-bacterial properties... and PG is an antifreeze to boot!

So I was a bit curious how it could spoil at all...

I found (and was surprised) that SALMONELLA * luvs * PG. yum yum.
It ferments in PG producing acid.

Tons of stuff you buy at the grocery store is/can have salmonella on it. I remember some stuff I read when we had kids, that shopping carts are especially slimy with nasty bacteria like that. (not necessarily Salmonella, there are a couple other ones too, but I'll call it that for being a likely suspect)

So
-PG is generally bacteria resistant.
-COLD slows the growth of bacteria (not speeds it up)
-Salmonella on a surface in the fridge is not unheard of
-Nic juice jars are not vacuum sealed by any stretch

I present a guess that putting your juice in the fridge does not hurt it at all !
But putting it in a sealed environment where a particular bacteria lives, that likes to feed on it,
is a likely cause. (like locking your dog in a closet with a hamburger )


Some may say "how does it get into a sealed bottle" ?
Well, unless the bottle is pressurized or vacuum sealed - it isn't sealed.
The threads on the bottle are tight enough to keep the liquid in. Anything "smaller" (molecularly speaking) than the PG will easily crawl right through there. Bacteria are VERY small... so unless your bottles have tight rubber or silicone seals (none of mine do) it's an open door.

I'm thinking if I wash out my mini fridge with bleach prior to storing my juice in it, it will probably be ok.

Opinions?

 

[SharonLM]

RjG, wow. That is truly scary! Luckily the refrigerator I have mine in hasn't any food in it. Only vitamins, herbs, cough drops, e-liquid, stuff like that. But just wow!

 

[kinabaloo]

Good point RjG - just maybe air-tight is not bacteria tight - but i think molecules are smaller than bateria

But then again, air-tight is a relative term; it can get in in ppm over time no doubt.

To get a good seal and exclude all air, one used to pour hot wax over the liquid surface to form a prfect (?) seal. This is certainly an area to explore. Bacteria are extremely hardy and some can live in amazing extremes, eat through plastic like it was gateaux etc.

SharonLM - yes I have been thinking to mention that - many nutrients, especially oils/liquids are best kept refrigerated.

An idea of my own relating to why juices might sometimes go off is that this might not be due to bacteria (at least not always) or algae (as I proposed for the green-juice outbreak) but yeast. Yest don't like cold or high alcohol content, but VG and PG are sugar-alcohols and probably can be fermented by yeast to alcohol that can in turn degrade to acetaldehyde (vinegar taste/smell) as can happen with wine.

Yeast is wierd stuff - half plant, half 'animal' (a bit like algae but live on sugars rather than photosynthesis). If anyone has some yeast, could see if PG or VG will ferment at all.

 

[Kent C]

Just a debate, and some passion. I want to open my e-fridge and offer everyone an e-beer or e-choc-ice

There are some related issues worth looking at - such as whether plastic is wise for the long term (might be slightly air permeable) or leech ~~~ (forget the name, has been in the news re ready meals and babies bottles).

I'll start off with saying this is 'hearsay' and it's been so long I don't have a link available but there was a time (very much related) where I was looking into the long term storage of MYO tobacco and I did a search on the possibilities of plastic containers, because I was concerned about 'outgassing' (that's likely the term you were looking for but if not... no problem ;-)

While I don't recall the exact chemical name of what was considered 'best' I do recall that the brand names that used that type were tupperware and lock & lock:

Heritage Mint

ah... high quality polypropylene plastic and it's what the 'high quality' aspect is that I don't recall. By now there may be other products that are better or equal but that is what I found at that time. I have a few tests going on with lock & lock and the last time (and perhaps the _very last time now ;-) that I tested it the tobacco was holding up well after two years without a bit of difference in taste to 'new tobacco' of the same kind.

Again, people should take this with a grain a salt and do their own testing and research. But that might help as a starting point.

 

[kinabaloo]

I guess we won't know what happens with freezing juice until someone freezes it, thaws it out 2 yrs latter and gives a report.

I would estimate than no thawing would be needed. I think it would stay liquid in the average home freezer.

Freezing is not good for strawberries - the ice crystals destroy the cell walls so though taste good and are still good biochemically speaking, lose their physical shape. Can't imagine why freezing would be harmful but we just don't know.

 

[chuckie]

I would estimate than no thawing would be needed. I think it would stay liquid in the average home freezer.

Freezing is not good for strawberries - the ice crystals destroy the cell walls so though taste good and are still good biochemically speaking, lose their physical shape. Can't imagine why freezing would be harmful but we just don't know.

I don't even know how cold it would have to get to freeze it. Since PG is used in antifreeze I expect it's a very low temp. It's probably not possible to freeze it without lab equipment.

 

[crazyhorse]

PG freeze point -39 ° C.

Incidentally, PG oxidizes in the presence of heat and air to form lactic acid.

 

[kinabaloo]

I don't even know how cold it would have to get to freeze it. Since PG is used in antifreeze I expect it's a very low temp. It's probably not possible to freeze it without lab equipment.

This doesn't mean it's not useful, to go even colder than a fridge but uncharted territory. Interesting that Kent C mentioned that tobacco can be frozen and the nicotine comes out alive

 

[menthollight]

I totally respect Sun's opinion here, and appreciate that they're sharing their experience.

But we have a manufacturer and several vendors recommending refrigeration, and only one member that I'm aware of having juice go bad in the refrigerator (BigJimW said his juice is fine, and attributes the problem he had to hardware).

That's why I'd like to get more people's experiences.

Thanks for the PG MSDS info, Sun, "Store in a dry ventilated area at a temperature of 15°C to 30°C (59°F to 86°F)." I haven't researched the MSDS of nicotine, VG or various flavorings.

My storage choices are a relatively constant 40°F (refrigerator) or a greatly fluctuating room temperature of up to 106°F. So I've chosen to store at 20° cooler than MSDS rather than 20° warmer than MSDS. And my results are good so far.