glycerin vs. vg

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by momswann, Feb 15, 2009.

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  1. momswann

    momswann Senior Member ECF Veteran

  2. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jaaxx wrote a post recently about glycerine and how it was made. Not all glycerine is of vegetable origin but if it's USP grade it doesn't matter.

    I haven't heard about kidney damage with glycerine, Katink's reply on that thread suggests that it's not a big concern.
  3. momswann

    momswann Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Thanks so much. YOu are always right there with an answer!
  4. udave

    udave Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Polyethylene Glycol was the one that could cause kidney problems. In fact, PEG is the active ingredient in laxatives and it says right on the bottle NOT to use the laxative if you have kidney problems. Everything I have read so far points to food grade glycerine being safe.
  5. Terraphon

    Terraphon Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Do you, perchance, have links to any of your information?
  6. udave

    udave Senior Member ECF Veteran

    I don't think I can post links yet, but I will try. You have probably read this thread already but this is the thread that really set my mind at ease about glycerine (the posts by Kate and jimldk.)

    I also checked as many MSDS's as I could, most of them said glycerine may be a respiratory irritant at high concentrations, but I couldn't find any that listed long term exposure risks.

    Of course when I said "safe", what I meant to say was that glycerine seems to be as safe as PG, and safer than inhaling cigarette smoke.
  7. JoeSmog

    JoeSmog Full Member

    Check out

    This is not good. PG and VG are likely going to cause moderate to serious harm given the amount of 'consumption' that occurs with vaping. I hate this after investing over $100 dollars and doing it for a week.. I got strange feelings, tightness of chest, heart palpitations and tingling.. that's when I hit this health topics thread and started doing some DD.
  8. JoeSmog

    JoeSmog Full Member


    www .jtbaker.commsds/englishhtml/p5029.htm


    8. Exposure Controls/Personal Protection

    Airborne Exposure Limits:
    AIHA Workplace Environmental Exposure Level (WEEL):
    Polypropylene glycols: 8-hour TWA: 10 mg/m3, as an aerosol

    Ventilation System:
    A system of local and/or general exhaust is recommended to keep employee exposures below the Airborne Exposure Limits. Local exhaust ventilation is generally preferred because it can control the emissions of the contaminant at its source, preventing dispersion of it into the general work area. Please refer to the ACGIH document, Industrial Ventilation, A Manual of Recommended Practices, most recent edition, for details.
    Personal Respirators (NIOSH Approved):
    For use with solids (not required for liquids): If the exposure limit is exceeded and engineering controls are not feasible, a half facepiece particulate respirator (NIOSH type N95 or better filters) may be worn for up to ten times the exposure limit or the maximum use concentration specified by the appropriate regulatory agency or respirator supplier, whichever is lowest.. A full-face piece particulate respirator (NIOSH type N100 filters) may be worn up to 50 times the exposure limit, or the maximum use concentration specified by the appropriate regulatory agency, or respirator supplier, whichever is lowest. If oil particles (e.g. lubricants, cutting fluids, glycerine, etc.) are present, use a NIOSH type R or P filter. For emergencies or instances where the exposure levels are not known, use a full-facepiece positive-pressure, air-supplied respirator. WARNING: Air-purifying respirators do not protect workers in oxygen-deficient atmospheres.
    Skin Protection:
    Wear protective gloves and clean body-covering clothing.
    Eye Protection:
    Use chemical safety goggles. Maintain eye wash fountain and quick-drench facilities in work area.

    Be careful folks.. very careful.
  9. Tallgirl1974

    Tallgirl1974 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Did you, per chance, read the side effects & warnings of the 4000 chemicals in a cigarette before you got addicted to them? If so, why did you smoke them anyway? If not, why not? Its true, it may cause problems, they dont know yet and that sucks...but studies done on fog machines have proven it can cause irritations to throat and lungs but havent proven they do much of anything else. Doctors recommend asthmatics not be around fog machines. (Doctors recomend no one smokes)

    Would you put this in your body?:
    [SIZE=+1]Toxicology[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]: Harmful if swallowed. Experimental teratogen. Irritant in humans. May affect CNS. [/SIZE]

    Or this?
    [SIZE=+1]Toxicology: [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Causes skin and eye irritation. Ingestion can cause nausea, vomitting and inebriation; chronic use can cause serious liver damage.[/SIZE]

    If those two things bother you: do not drink caffeine or alcohol *ever again. Be careful people, be very careful!
    Everything will have possibles and unknowns. I'll take a food additive in my lungs over tar TYVM.
  10. JoeSmog

    JoeSmog Full Member

    Point(s) taken, but we need to take into account the amount/density of the chemicals we are talking about.

    I've not done any sort of computation to relate the density of the PG when vaping to those values indicated in the MSDS, but obviously the amounts of vapor we are consuming is very high and at a high rate of frequency every day.

    Again, I just recommend that people educate themselves. I've vaped for a week and it worked as for curbing my desire for a real cig, but the aforementioned physical side effects I cannot live with.

    Per the MSDS, VG it seems is going to be worse than PG, unfortunately ( I bought a half gallon online last week. Makes a great skin softener so not a total loss;)

    I've got some friends in the BioTech industry that I'm going to help with my DD on this subject.

    DO be careful. Be wary also of those that discount any risk to vaping PG or VG as many here seem to have financial interests before health interests.
  11. Tallgirl1974

    Tallgirl1974 Super Member ECF Veteran

    I understand you're trying to be helpful-and not for one minute do I take the word of any seller over my own conclusions and research- but my logic will always dictate this: less chemicals (that are not carcinogens) in my lungs is better, period. Glycerin is in cigarettes. Or similar version of it. The way I see it- I kept my nicotine and glycerin- dropped all the other stuff. lol
    I take my chances with kidney problems over cancer- I know two people who got new kidneys and are alive- I know ZERO people who got lung cancer and lived. All five died.
  12. JoeSmog

    JoeSmog Full Member


    LOL Coffee--

    Very high bolus doses (equivalent to 142 cups of coffee consumed by a 60kg person per day) are required for caffeine to have a teratogenic effect in rats. ..."

    I stick to 3 cups a day, thank you.

    Ditto Alchohol. 2 to 3 drinks per day is GOOD for you.

    Cite someting meaningful please.


    Would you put this in your body?:
    [SIZE=+1]Toxicology[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]: Harmful if swallowed. Experimental teratogen. Irritant in humans. May affect CNS. [/SIZE]

    Or this?
    [SIZE=+1]Toxicology: [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Causes skin and eye irritation. Ingestion can cause nausea, vomitting and inebriation; chronic use can cause serious liver damage.[/SIZE]
  13. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    I think we're not likely to have a clearer idea of the scale of the risk without knowing how much exposure we are having (eg. chronic?) and how that relates to recommended safe levels for inhaling.

    At the moment we can't be inhaling much more than two or three ml per day and a lot of that will be exhaled.
  14. JoeSmog

    JoeSmog Full Member

    That's sort of my point. We want to be careful but don't know how as there are two many unknown variables. The body's reaction to a substance is very meaningful: I feel listless, have memory loss and have tingling on the skin when vaping even small amounts. I'll not risk kidney failure or brain damage - whatever - two years down the road because of my _hope_ that this is safer than cigs. Folks on this forum do a disservice when they cite the badness of smoking as an argument to the benefit of vaping ; that is just a distraction and does not dismiss the question of the saftey of PG or VG.

    I think I'll try something you mentioned in another thread: vap alchohol/H20 and natural flavoring with no VG or PG. Nix the NIC. (thanks for that suggestion) .. Did you continue that practice or was that just a one time experiment?

  15. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    This thread might be of interest to you:

    I've vaped alcohol based vanilla extract but not enough to say if it would work long term for me. I can't remember vaping anything else without pg or glycerine.

    I don't believe we can know or say pg and glycerine are safe but personally I don't consider the risk to be worth worrying about (that might not be wise). PG in particular is used in inhaled medication and for lung transplant patients, that suggests it's reasonably benign, at least in the short term. It's even possible that it can help to clean lungs of the nasty stuff from smoking.
  16. JoeSmog

    JoeSmog Full Member

    Thanks for the link. BTW, I blew up my atomizer very quickly with my Vodka/H20/Flavoring juice;) Bummer...
  17. ThreeDogDad

    ThreeDogDad Full Member

    I am so confused, is it VG, or PG that we want to vap?
  18. JoeSmog

    JoeSmog Full Member

    Me too... PG makes me feel weird, but VG vapor apparently could affect the liver. There needs to be actual clinical data to support claims of harm or harmlessness of inhaling either of these. I'm going to use VG to cut 30mg juice and reduce the nicotine levels to the point where I'll just quit all of this within a couple of months. I cannot see vaping continuously for any great length of time not knowing the consequences.. That's just me, tho.
  19. Brooks

    Brooks Full Member

    I am relatively sure that PG/VG or anyG is better in your lungs than byproducts of burning tobacco.... or burning anything, for that matter!
    I know that, because as a firefighter I get to sample couch smoke, carpet smoke, plastic smoke, mattress smoke.... well, you get the idea. So, I must conclude based on effects.... smoke bad/vapor good
  20. ramblingrose

    ramblingrose Super Member ECF Veteran

    I DYI and use a combination. I like VG, but worry about the thick oil shortening atty life. Small amounts of both are used in analogs. Try both, and see which you like.
: glycerine
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