Is dow optim fully synthetic VG Safe / Safer? Just how safe is 99.5% USP VG?'

[Gary E. Maurizi Jr]

Hello All,

I know that this topic has been beat to the ground here on ECF, and I have read just about every tidbit on the subject that exists. If you have not, may I suggest looking over the following ECF article before commenting on this thread please:

Purity of PG, VG and PEG - The Short Version

Now, onto my question:

I know that we have varying grades of VG, and that USP can mean/be BOTH pharmaceutical grade AND food grade, from what I have gathered.

Does USP only specify the purity percentage? or does it specifically state what the other .5% of impurities can be? For example, from what I understand, I could have 99.5% pure USP grade VG and the other .5% impurities could be either H2O, or cyanide, and I would have no way of knowing, is this correct? (Except in the case that the label says anhydrous, then we know the other .5% is NOT H2O and that's even more troublesome potentially?).

So when it comes to USP grade VG, how can one determine that it is indeed PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE USP and not simply food grade USP? Short of expensive chemical analysis?

Now, in all of these threads I have found conflicting information on this subject, but one topic keeps coming to the foreground every single time, and that is: "Dow optim Fully synthetic glycerine/VG".

Everyone seems to think that "Dow Optim Glycerine" would be the safest bet for inhalation, it's just impossible to get your hands on, and from what I can gather, this is because it is the only glycerine that has been approved by the FDA for inhalation uses in pharmaceutical inhalers -- is this correct?

In regards to dow optim, it may be fully synthetic, but it is a biodiesel sourced glycerine at a purity of 99.7%, in this case wouldn't the other .3% of impurities potentially be MORE HARMFUL because they could be BIODIESEL based impurities instead of plant based impurities in the case of 99.5% pure vegetable sourced VG? so why is dow optim safer than 99.5% anhydrous USP VG? The 99.7% in dow optim may be pure synthetic glycerine but the other .3% could be anything, isn't this correct?

I am putting this out there with the hopes of fully clarifying this confusing topic, after reading every bit of information available here on the forums, with the hopes that some of the responses will finally put all of this into perspective.

I thank you for your time and input, and would appreciate any responses that can cite backing evidence for any claims put forth one way or the other, either in the form of an article or research paper, etc.

I am asking this because I have Dow Optim VG on hand and I have in fact mixed and vaped with it, the results have been pretty good, I don't get as much of the oily residue feeling in my mouth using optim that I get when using 99.5% USP VG from essentials depot or freedom smokes, and optim has a slightly less sweet taste to it, and seems to produce more vapor, and it seems to mute flavor less than my other VG types, but I want to know for sure that using this VG is safe, as safe, or maybe safer vs. using 99.5% USP VG?

One thing I find VERY interesting and not mentioned on ECF anywhere is that a 55 gallon drum of Dow Optim actually says "FOOD GRADE" right on the SIDE of it, NOT "PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE".. why is this? it does say USP on the drum, and 99.7%, it also says hahlil/kosher and gives the rabbi's name, but it says "food grade", are there varying grades of dow optim? does anyone have any idea why a 55 gallon drum of optim would say "food grade" when it's supposedly a much more pure pharmaceutical grade glycerine?

Thank You
GEM.

 

[zoiDman]

...

I am asking this because I have Dow Optim VG on hand and I have in fact mixed and vaped with it, the results have been pretty good, I don't get as much of the oily residue feeling in my mouth using optim that I get when using 99.5% USP VG from essentials depot or freedom smokes, and optim has a slightly less sweet taste to it, and seems to produce more vapor, and it seems to mute flavor less than my other VG types, but I want to know for sure that using this VG is safe, as safe, or maybe safer vs. using 99.5% USP VG?

...

EDIT to Remove:

Didn't want to give the Appearance that I was interested in Purchasing anything from the OP. I am Not.

Only Curious what DOW Optim costs. Because the Topic of DOW Optim has come up a Few Times over the Years. And to Date, the OP is the Only person who has said that they have Actually Purchased any.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

---> http://dowac.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3502/~/optim-glycerine-regulatory-requirements
You can also ask DOW, as soon as they understand you want to distribute it for vaping use they will no longer sell it to the business you work for.

USP = United States Pharmacopoeia / sometimes referred to as pharmaceutical grade.

 

[Gary E. Maurizi Jr]

---> http://dowac.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3502/~/optim-glycerine-regulatory-requirements
You can also ask DOW, as soon as they understand you want to distribute it for vaping use they will no longer sell it to the business you work for.

USP = United Stats Pharmacopoeia / sometimes referred to as pharmaceutical grade.

You are correct, DOW does not want to sell it to the tobacco/vape community. But it's not a controlled substance. I personally feel like it actually might be illegal for dow to discriminate who can or cant buy their product. Ty for your reply, the link has some very useful info.

 

[zoiDman]

Posted in Wrong Thread.

 

[Gary E. Maurizi Jr]

Posted in Wrong Thread.

Not sure I understand?

I've read the USP monograph on glycerine:
here: http://www.usp.org/sites/default/files/usp_pdf/EN/USPNF/revisions/2009-01-30glycerinmonograph.pdf

This doesn't state anything in regards to what the other .5% of impurities in USP grade glycerine could be? So it seems I may be correct in that that other .5% could be cyanide and it would still conform to the USP and we would have no way of knowing?

DOW's own page on optim glycerine however does state that there ARE residual class III solvents in the glycerine from biodiesel production after refinement, and that they exclusively test for this solvent via gas chromatography and remove it.. what about other glycerine manufacturers that do not even test for residual materials, let alone remove them?

Residual Solvents Information:
- OPTIM™ Glycerine 99.7% USP/EP complies with the requirements for Residual Solvents per the current edition of
The United States Pharmacopeia/National Formulary (USP/NF) and the ICH Residual Solvents Guidelines.

OPTIM™ Glycerine 99.7% USP/EP is not manufactured with or does not contain any Class 1 or Class 2 solvents.

Only a class 3 solvent is likely to be present. Analysis of every batch of OPTIM™ Glycerine 99.7% USP/EP by gas chromatography confirms the absence of this class 3 solvent below a detection limit of 0.01%. The nature of this solvent is not disclosed, as it is part of Dow's confidential manufacturing process. This practice complies with the current USP/NF General Chapter <467> Residual Solvents which does not require disclosure of the type of Class 3 solvent used.

OPTIM™ Glycerine 99.7% USP/EP does not contain any other Residual Solvents including those listed under Table 4 in the current USP/NF General Chapter <467> Residual Solvents.

This is pretty interesting information for the community it seems.

 

[zoiDman]

Not sure I understand?

...

It means that I made a Post that was Incorrect. And the Only thing I could do was Remove it and Place some text in it's place.

 

[schatz]

are we not allowed to speak of acquiring Dow VG onthis forum, yesterday you had another thread going and it just dissapeared. Or is there some big Dow conspiracy going on here? Interesting to see if this query will post.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

It is not illegal for a company to refuse sales to an entity that intends to use or distribute to those that will use their product in an unapproved manner / outside of the products designed intent.

You are pushing something that was discussed, litigated & left for dead 6 years ago.
If you'd like to reopen a dialog with DOW about the use of their product I suggest going directly to them.
Trying to go around or underneath will not end well for you & the company you work for.

 

[Gary E. Maurizi Jr]

You are correct, DOW does not want to sell it to the tobacco/vape community. But it's not a controlled substance. I personally feel like it actually might be illegal for dow to discriminate who can or cant buy their product. Ty for your reply, the link has some very useful info.

are we not allowed to speak of acquiring Dow VG onthis forum, yesterday you had another thread going and it just dissapeared. Or is there some big Dow conspiracy going on here? Interesting to see if this query will post.

No discussion on commercial activity is allowed. So do NOT discuss selling the product to other members, and I can not answer anything in relation to commercial activity.

We can still discuss the product itself, and the topic of discussion in the original post. Thanks.

 

[93gc40]

Isn't synthetic VG or glycerine jus what we call PG. Or is there a way to make Vegetable Glycerine without the use of the vegetable.

 

[zoiDman]

are we not allowed to speak of acquiring Dow VG onthis forum, yesterday you had another thread going and it just dissapeared. Or is there some big Dow conspiracy going on here? Interesting to see if this query will post.

I don't think there is Any Problem with talking about acquiring DOW Optim on this forum.

But there can be a Problem if there is the Appearance that a Member is attempting to Sell something to Other Members as a Non-Registered Supplier.

Not Saying the OP was trying to do this. Only that sometimes Appearances can be Misunderstood.

 

[Gary E. Maurizi Jr]

It is not illegal for a company to refuse sales to an entity that intends to use or distribute to those that will use their product in an unapproved manner / outside of the products designed intent.

You are pushing something that was discussed, litigated & left for dead 6 years ago.
If you'd like to reopen a dialog with DOW about the use of their product I suggest going directly to them.
Trying to go around or underneath will not end well for you & the company you work for.

You're probably correct, and I imagine they would probably try to put an end to that. However, it's not a controlled substance, and once purchased, they have little legal control or right to determine or have any say in how it is further used. They may have legal grounds to prevent further unauthorized resale by a specific entity, but not how the product is used after purchase... from what I understand anyway. So I don't think any laws would be broken if a person were to give the product away, or use it in an ejuice mix that is sold? I'm not 100% sure on this, but that's the walk-away I got from discussions with someone that understands the laws on the issue much better than I do.

But anyone able to get their hands on this product, is probably eventually asking for trouble from DOW if they do even give it away for free to the vape community.

 

[Gary E. Maurizi Jr]

Isn't synthetic VG or glycerine jus what we call PG. Or is there a way to make Vegetable Glycerine without the use of the vegetable.

PG is Propylene Glycol, VG Is Glycerine, they are entirely different chemical compounds.

PG is C3H802 propane-1,2-diol
VG or Glycerine is C3H803 propane-1,2,3-triol

VG Is Glycerine C3H803 That has been source refined from vegetable sources, this is what we accurately call VG And where the V in VG comes from.

But VG Can also be confusing enough referring to Glycerine C3H803 That is source refined from animal fat sources, or source refined from Biodiesel sources. Further, a product can say it is VG 100% from vegetable sources but be 90% from veg sources and 10% from biodesel sources, alot of rebranding and relabelling takes place.

Glycerine Source refined from biodeisel sources has been known to contain DEG a very toxic chemical.

Glycerine source refined from Vegetable sources can and alot of times does contain jatropha which is extremely toxic for inhalation. So in the case of glycerine from vegetable sources that other .5% could be toxic jatropha -- except in the instance of VG sourced from coconut, it will not have jatropha and may be the safest bet.

Dow optim is a fully synthetic glycerine, it starts from biodesel refinement sources but it is fully synthesised from these sources, and any class I II or III residual solvents are tested for by dow and removed if present.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Isn't synthetic VG or glycerine jus what we call PG. Or is there a way to make Vegetable Glycerine without the use of the vegetable.

Synthetic VG is a byproduct from the production of bio diesel.
That doesn't make it bad or hazardous, it just is not vegetable glycerin.
Glycerin, yes,,, no animal, plant or vegetable base stocks are used.

 

[Gary E. Maurizi Jr]

We as a community could really use some definite answers to the remaining impurities in our USP 95.5% grade Glycerine.

When Glycerine is used in food preparation .5% of any particular impurity may not be a big deal, but when it is being inhaled in large quanitities daily that is another thing entirely.

I would really love to find a VG supplier that regularly pays for gas chromatography testing of their product to insure that no toxic impurities may have snuck their way in during the manufacturing or refinement processes.

This could already exist, and I just haven't found it yet.

 

[Gary E. Maurizi Jr]

While on this topic,

I just want to put out there that my intent with this topic is not to instill any fear. The glycerine we use is most likely 100% safe. Back in the 70s and 80s the FDA did a study on restaurant workers and food supply chain workers regularly being exposed to vapors from VG E.g inhalation of VG through other means, and found no reason to suspect long term exposure issues. So there is most likely no long term exposure issue with 99.5% USP VG, I am simply curious if the USP monograph only states the purity percentage or if it also states what impurities can reside in the other .5% of the material.

This is one of the major reasons the FDA has fuel to pursue regulating this industry, and if we as consumers demanded that our suppliers test these things independently prior to sale it could remove any and all fuel the FDA has in this regard.

They only have justification for regulation so far as this industry stays incapable or unwilling to safely regulate itself.