New, pink E-cig!

[Lady Python]

OK. Fine. Get e-cigs banned too with your head in the sand attitude.

Don't think that the antis, if they decide to have e-cigs banned as well won't use duff science and false statistics to prove their point. They will.

The only one on here who will probably realise what I'm on about is probably Dr Loi.

 

[TropicalBob]

The very worst thing that has happened to e-smoking is ... it's called e-smoking.

Smokey Joe worried about that last January. Knutselpeter is now saying on the Dutch forum that this practice needs a new name. Quickly! If "smoking" is connected to it, we can kiss this goodbye. And this is not "smoking," e or otherwise. We make vapor and our battle must be waged differently from the one that lost the cause of cigarette smoking in public.

You haven't or won't put cigarette smoking behind you. Most here have. Others are trying to. We need to move on. We will do so with our heads out of the sand, thank you. Please keep discussions of cigarette smoking on forums available for that crusade.

 

[Mr.Darcy]

Lady,im sure we all know what your point is,particularly those of us from the UK...

i certainly can see where youre coming from with this,i hate the nanny state and the PC/anti everything brigade...

the big question-with regards to esmoking specifically-is this...

in order for it to be successfully accepted or condoned by the government and majority of the general public,what strategy and approach should be adopted,when should it be adopted,how and by whom?

id be interested to hear your ideas on this...

 

[trog100]

okay bob.. point taken.. i speak in an off the record way amongst friends.. i use simple but effective words to make the point to those friends.. for public consumption i would use different words... he he

but take the "lesser evil" principle.. i use the word evil deliberately.. first we are addicted smokers.. without doubt it is a lesser evil to us.. but we are already damaged goods.. we dont count.. we are not the majority.. we are the bad guys who are too stupid to give up our habit as we have beem encouraged to do.. now we simply want to swop one evil for a lesser evil..

the damage factor to the majority.. there is another highly addictive product out there.. it might even make the whole concept of "addiction" respectable.. it might even make a whole new bunch of people take up the new safer "addictive" habit..

its a hard one to get around.. one has to remove the "greater damage" to the whole factor completely in the publics mind.. the smokers license would do this..

it wont make him happy but as an alternative to having his new habit banned he will willingly swallow the pill.. he does have to fear the ban first thow.. else he will scream loss of his civil liberties..

in our current democracy an increase in the majorities civil liberties means a decrease in the minorities civil liberties..

the hard bit.. getting government to go for it.. but at least the smokers licenses is a hard one to argue against and come up still smelling of roses..

trog

ps.. as a major plus side it would stop all the children from taking up the real killer habit.. if i was a politician i could sell it.. as i said a bloody hard one to argue against and come out looking good..

 

[jitc]

They have an obsessive loathing of anything that remotely looks like a cigarette. I do believe if they had their way, white pens would be banned!

Sorry, but that is a just a pure and personal negative reaction without a reality check!

Why would they get it try to get it banned, Non-Smokers are very intelligent, just like us e-smokers! It doesn't harm them, like tobacco did, It's me absorbing the nicotine which I know there is a risk to my health, not theirs! We are a more liberal society and hate the state and minority groups, bullying the majority!

In this case they are wrong!

My friends know I’m addicted to nicotine, but would prefer seeing me getting my “fix” in a safer way at no risk to them.....it's that simple, and would easily join me in a fight against a ban.

At present politicians are very media reliant and also intelligent and know the target of reducing smokers has to be managed. Those smokers who were capable of giving up would have already, so any new methods to challenge the psychology of smokers to help them, and very much welcome!

Allowing addicts to reduce the level off their addiction over a period of time has been a proven method in managing any type of drug withdrawal. So, there is no difference in nicotine addiction, electronic cigarettes provides a solution to their (politicians) problem, without risking the health of the general public and especially at the users own “cost” and not the Treasury!

See the Wood through the leaves, not the just the Tree's!

 

[TropicalBob]

How many times have you heard someone say, "Well, if you want to kill yourself, don't ask me to help you?" Fair enough. Don't ask taxpayers to subsidize our addiction by having to pay for testing, oversight, marketing reviews, the whole bureaucracy of regulation that will be needed for use of personal nicotine vaporizers.

That's why your idea has merit. Follow the money.

The government would not spend taxpayer money. Big Pharma and Big Tobacco could compete on equal footing, not at a disadvantage from a price standpoint. And smokers would have a realistic nicotine delivery system to replace killer cigarettes.

These should be presented as personal vaporizers. Ludo tried to jest about that not long ago, and I regret jumping on his post before he said he was kidding. He called the e-cig a "personal smoking machine" in that post. That won't fly. It's a personal vaporizer, having nothing to do with smoking. Vaporizer. Nothing more. We can vaporize Bickford for the taste, or nicotine for the addiction. Our choice. A personal choice.

It's a dangerous device, as you point out, with the prospect of addicting a new generation to nicotine and early circulation problems. The liquid is unquestionably dangerous, on many fronts. To use such a device would require adult licensing.

With your proposal, Trog, we eliminate "appealing to innocent young people," and the prospect of saddling the four out of five adults who don't smoke and can't stand smokers with a tab for regulation expenses.

I really think this is a light at the end of an otherwise pitch black tunnel.

 

[trog100]

its a good "for" argument bob.. i cant really think of another one.. but we do have time on our side.. we can wait.. the longer they wait the stronger we get.. time is on our sides as long as nobody attempts to hit national TV and do big time promotion i cant see anything happening soon.. collapsing economies are giving em enough to worry about..

but i am against trying to promote the things.. but then again i aint trying to promote my business either.. i would sit back.. plan my counter attack and wait.. knowing that time was on my side..

but the gee wow whoopy we should tell the world type folks outnumber me by far.. he he

trog

 

[Lady Python]

Tropical Bob. Where did I mention getting the smoking ban overturned? You seem to have a bit of fixation there. Yes, I would like to see it being overturned or at the very least, concessions made but that is not the point I am trying to make. Mr Darcy and Trog know what I'm saying, for some reason you do not. To fight an enemy, even a potential enemy, you need to know that enemy.

Mr Darcy, I wish I had the answers for you. Quite simply I don't. With the government we've got at the present time (and hopefully for not too much longer), they will simply see e-cigs (or whatever else they end up being called) as another means of raising taxes to line their own pockets with.

Where the anti brigade would stand on it, I don't know as they couldn't use the SHS argument. If they started on the "it's bad for your (personal) health" then that argument wouldn't hold water either. They couldn't scream for an out and out ban because they would then have to ban the ingredients that make the vapour and since PG and food flavouring is present in just about every shop-bought food item then they would be on a hiding to nowhere.

As far as I can see, there are only three ways the antis could make a bid for a ban. One is because e-cigs look like cigarettes, at least from a distance and the other is their usual rhetoric of "think of the children", meaning if children see an e-cig, then it might encourage them to start tobacco smoking and of course the third, the nicotine content.

At the moment I think the doom and gloom of some members is a bit premature, particularly in this country. At the moment e-smoking is very much a minority thing, not really big enough to interest the government (not enough money to be made) and by the time that they do show an interest, they'll be out of office anyway and hopefully the next government will show a bit more commonsense and respect for the people who put them in office.

One other thing.

No-one and certainly no health freak or government will make me feel guilty or ashamed of the fact I smoke. I do smoke, I enjoy smoking, plain and simple. I also Vape. I enjoy vaping, plain and simple.

PS. This post should have been on an hour ago but my brother phoned so it's been sitting on my screen until now.

 

[pillbox38]

Trog...Why not tell the world???

At least then we get an answer, i believe in being upfront and personal, hiding behind closed curtains isnt my style...

You enjoy smoking your electronic nicotine delivery stick, so do i, i liked it so much i saw a commercial venture.. Untill i get enforced(if that every happens) to stop selling them i will be out there promoting the E.Cigarettes merits as a safer smoking product...

Its not a case of WOW WHOOPY its more a case of why should other smokers not know..

Once Critical mass is achieved and the majority of pub, club, bingo, football, nursing home, office (the list is endless) deprived smokers find out and start using the products it will be a long labourious battle for legislation to be passed to outlaw e. smoking.

Maybe there is too much paranoia around... It might only take Nicorette to decide they want in and BINGO its then available on the NHS...

Im not in cloud cuckoo land but negativety dressed up as caution feeds the fear of we are doing something wrong.. Im not..

I would not be selling these if i did not believe they are IN MY Opinion(not clinically proven) a safer healthier alternative.

Lets face it half of the sanction chemistry dished out by medics have massive side effects.. Does this liquid nicotine??? Probably has some, but for sure id rather use this than tobacco, i would bet all i have its safer than real cigarettes and 99% of the sanctioned drugs dished out by the Pharmaceutical industry..

Big Bro is watching...Let him watch...

 

[TropicalBob]

Through all this rhetoric, Trog, your idea does stand tall.

 

[Lady Python]

Nice one Pillbox38

 

[karenwest1961]

Just how many reasons would you need to understand that government is not going to say, "Wow. We think this is healthier than smoking tobacco cigarettes, so we'll let unregulated liquids and devices made in China be sold freely in our country? And we'll gladly forego the taxes imposed on tobacco products. We want our country to have healthy smokers of addictive, poisonous liquid vaporized in a metal tube."

If you see a smooth road ahead, you must be smoking something I don't have available for my e-cigarettes. Dream on. Enjoy this ride while it lasts. I am.

We are flying under the radar so far. Some countries have already banned the product. It will not be long before the US follows suit, I'm sure of it. Shouting it from the rooftops is only going to get our product snuffed faster, IMO.

We are the cheapest guinea pigs on the face of the earth. We're taking our lives in our own hands right now to feed our addiction. The liquid has NOT been thoroughly tested. With Njoy bringing the product in the casinos in Atlantic City, this causes me BIG concern. I go to Atlantic City several times a year and I can tell you that I'm one of their youngest players...and I'll be 47 tomorrow. Sure enough as one of their elderly smokers buys this product to avoid the ban, and he falls ill or drops dead from a product that hasn't been through clinical trial and rigorous US scrutiny, there will be lawsuits...and it's bye-bye e-cig.

Like Bob says, enjoy the ride while you can.

By the way, I like the fishing license idea.

 

[pillbox38]

Too add a reality check to this debate...Please see below an EMail i received today from a customer


"hi
as a custome of yours I thought I had better give you an update of my experience of smoking e-cigs in public,

I am 57 years old and like nothing better than a smoke and a pint and a bet on a saturday afternoon..............................

I contacted my workingmans club and showed a commitee man all the information I had collected and even suggested they should use the stickers you had given me and to allocate a certain area of the bar only for a trial period where these could be monitored ; stressing that a normal cig. would give off smoke at all times from the tip ; would have ash showing and would need a lighter to ignite it ...............
there response came back NO it would be too difficult to police and normal smokers who had to go outside would be jealous and potentially aggressive to e-smokers ; bottm line ; NO
plus it would mean extra work for them...NOT INTERESTED.

The william hill betting shop attached to my club ,didnt know how to react initially ; I showed them it was a battery operated nicotine inhalor and I was allowed to use it but they said they would refer it to the next staff meeting and today when I went in they said they would bar me out if I used it as it was not allowed , tho I asked where were the signs that something perfectly legal was outlawed..
it all comes down to policing it ....is it vapor or is it smoke..................................................................

I now beleve that the e=cig is doomed as long as vapour is emitted ..............................
have you any suggestions "

If that does not show that the E.Cigarette needs promoting i dont know what does.. Its ok saying HUSH HUsh..But this is bordering on the insane...

FEAR rules this society....

It might only be an ECIG but every user should in my opinion be out there defending it...Why should the customer above be threatened with a ban.... Its Insane...

 

[TropicalBob]

For a minute, I thought you had seen the light. But, no, you were quoting a customer.

You have no "right" to e-smoke. You do so only at the approval of a property owner. Your e-smoking in public will indeed confuse a "no smoking" mandate so don't be surprised if you're thrown out of place after place. Even Janty's Ludo was tossed out last week and posted it.

Promoting e-smoking might be very good for your business, but very bad for our practice that needs time to complete clinical trials and get a larger word-of-mouth user base. What is "insane" is using liquid without knowing how pure it is, sucking that into your lungs over and over. This practice needs regulation. Without regulation, you will get a ban.

The absolute bottom line is something I wrote long ago: You are sellling a drug delivery device to sustain addiction or create new addicts. Your liquid is poisonous enough to kill a child with half a vial of 4ml size. It's not childproof. It's not sealed. Its ingredients are not listed. Its purity is unknown.

You expect approval of this?

 

[trog100]

well for years i have both condemned and despised the UK governments attitude to smoking.. i have simply said they should stop playing games and make available a safer alternative to smoking.. in essence accept that some people are addicts cant stop and need the safer alternative..

the reason they never have is that they and the medical professional find it against their principles to create another addictive device..

but the chinese have jumped the gun and done it for them.. created another addictive device.. the government's and the medical professions principles havnt changed.. they have simply lost control of the situation.. i hope the situation remains this way..

best of luck with the venture anyways... being involved as u are u have to look on the bright side..

trog

ps.. a little amusing story.. i know a real ...... addict.. he is now in the Philippines he took his doctors prescription for methadone with him.. he trots into the local (private) clinic and hands over the script.. he also handed over £70 quid for the consultation fee.. the Filipino doctor had no idea what methadone was and handed over a nice package of the real stuff.. result one happy addict.. his cigs and booze cost pennies also.. i am inclined to think it will kill him but so far he has survived over seven months in his new found wonderland.. how this relates to e smoke i have no idea but it is an amazing story.. he he

 

[pillbox38]

Tropical Bob>>>WHo says we dont know what is in the fluid used in the cartridges?? I have a full list of every ingredient and % of it in the fluid used in the cartridges.. I also have a 20 page document of a chinese commissioned study that took place with the fluid on mice and humans...

Proven non toxic. Of course if you poured a cup full down your throat you might find the experience pretty awful, pretty much the same as a cup full of bleach. strange that isnt banned.

How about weed killer etc...

Fact is many substances used in everyday living if swallowed in high enough amounts can kill...

That argument holds little water...

What we are talking about I think, is how misunderstood the principles and benefits of smoking electronically really are.. Surely anything that helps the process of educating the majority, who have mainly never heard of, or seen an electronic cigarette cannot be harmful..

I will share my experience of selling these goods, 6 months ago i had a steady turnover, steady buyers mainly smokers wanting to quit with a few re-sellers buying from me.

In the last 2 months the interest has sky-rocketed.. PR companies are contacting us, people who relate to me they have money and can get the product in all the mainstrean stores are starting to appear out of the woodork..


Wholesale orders are cranking up with lots of kits and cartridges being shipped to greece and cyprus...

My experience as a supplier of e.smoking products is starting to show what i always knew would happen as soon as i found these products....That is, when this goes boom it will happen fast, in 6 months the customers email will not be the norm it will be the exception...

 

[TropicalBob]

Clearly, you're sold on what you sell. I like it, too, but your philosophy is going to end both our pleasures. You read about Turkey? You read about Dr. Loi in Malaysia? You read about the Netherlands? As soon as this becomes known, it's in trouble. The faster it becomes known, the sooner the trouble arrives.

At least a few manufacturers seem to have a grip on reality and are positioning themselves for a survival battle looming. From Dr. Loi and others: This is not about safer alternatives for nicotine addicts. Never will be. This is about money. Who gets it. Who loses it. View it that way and tell me you want to push this mainstream in a hurry.

 

[MacFan]

DeviLFisH, I'm not at all sure what to say except... something. There's no reason here to be sniggering about "gays" and "sissy" and "some guys" and "that kinds". So let's not please.

A little late, but way to go Jamie!

 

[trog100]

A little late, but way to go Jamie!

american ideas being forced on the world.. i am an american what i believe is right... the american way is the only way.. lets not forget this is an international forum.. dudes

not the way to go jamie.. the fish comes from a different culture.. this should be allowed for.. if i aint its thru ignorance and bigotry.. which make u just as guilty as the fish..

trog

 

[TropicalBob]

Not slamming others with slurs is called tolerance and sensitivity. Those are good things to have, for people and for governments. Insensitivity is the same in any country -- ugly and bigoted. Slurs of any kind -- other than "your idea sucks" -- are uncalled for on an international forum.

Way to go, Jamie. And Macfan for understanding.