Therion | Series vs Parallel

[VapeAddyct]

Probably a simple question to many, but very confusing to me. Also very important. All help is much appreciated! Thanks in advance!

I am looking into getting a Lost Vape Therion. The only question up until today was which leather i wanted on my battery door.. I then stumbled upon the Therion dna 133!! Whoa.. The Therion dna 75 runs dual 18650s in Parallel and the 133 runs dual 18650s in series. My question is, if i had the same build in the same rda on both 13e and the 75 at 50 watts, which would give me better battery life? Also, would one provide better battery life in general? Please let me know and feel free to explain like you're talking to a 12 year old lol.. Basically i want whichever one will give me longer battery life.. I plan on using Sony VTC6s, which had amazing teat results. Again, thank you in advance!

 

[sofarsogood]

Probably a simple question to many, but very confusing to me. Also very important. All help is much appreciated! Thanks in advance!

I am looking into getting a Lost Vape Therion. The only question up until today was which leather i wanted on my battery door.. I then stumbled upon the Therion DNA 133!! Whoa.. The Therion DNA 75 runs dual 18650s in Parallel and the 133 runs dual 18650s in series. My question is, if i had the same build in the same RDA on both 13e and the 75 at 50 watts, which would give me better battery life? Also, would one provide better battery life in general? Please let me know and feel free to explain like you're talking to a 12 year old lol.. Basically i want whichever one will give me longer battery life.. I plan on using Sony VTC6s, which had amazing teat results. Again, thank you in advance!

I have both a 2 battery Cuboid, wired in series, and a single battery VTC mini. Both use the same board and both have a puff timer. I vaped them both to the end with the same atomizer and same settings, 400 degrees, 30 max watts. The single battery VTC gave slightly more puff time than the Cuboid. I believe a two battery device wired in paralell would give twice the battery life of the single battery mod while, apparently the series arrangement does not. But the series wiring allows higher watts, at a price. In general I see no advantage to using a mod capable of putting out a lot more watts than you actually use except for bragging rights.

 

[VapeAddyct]

I have both a 2 battery Cuboid, wired in series, and a single battery VTC mini. Both use the same board and both have a puff timer. I vaped them both to the end with the same atomizer and same settings, 400 degrees, 30 max watts. The single battery VTC gave slightly more puff time than the Cuboid. I believe a two battery device wired in paralell would give twice the battery life of the single battery mod while, apparently the series arrangement does not. But the series wiring allows higher watts, at a price. In general I see no advantage to using a mod capable of putting out a lot more watts than you actually use except for bragging rights.

The mods i am asking about both use TWO 18650s.. Not ONE vs TWO.. One mod is in series and one in parallel

 

[Clark Kent]

I am not totally sure on this but I would think the 75w therion in parallel would last longer than the 133, I have the triad and love it and was thinking about the 75 and 133, for a smaller take around, but kind of eliminated the 75, because I find myself around 80w to 100w most of the time and just think the 75 might not cut it. I had to go on escribe to match my batteries up and it seems to do much better than the factory preset. But if you sure your not going to go over 75w I think the duel therion 75 would fit the bill quite well. Beside the fact that a DNA chip is much more efficiant than any other mods I own, and that list is quite long....

 

[VapeAddyct]

@Mooch please help me brother. I just need to understand which configuration provides better battery life.

 

[daviedog]

I built two unregulated mods, parallel & series.
The parallel gives substantially more runtime.
The series mod is unvapable with subohm builds. Very nice at 1.5 ohm/24awg kanthal.
A regulated mod? Disregard the above..

 

[dcfluegel]

keep in mind, you are talking about two different boards/ chipsets - dna75 and dna200, respectively - both are regulated - dna75 will cap out at 75 watts max, dna200 (with only two 18650s to pull from) will cap out at 133 watts max... if you are running same build at same wattage, since they are regulated, battery life should be almost identical - only real difference is that the 133 can go up to 133... (batteries run in series providing board with higher potential voltage...)

 

[VapeAddyct]

keep in mind, you are talking about two different boards/ chipsets - dna75 and dna200, respectively - both are regulated - dna75 will cap out at 75 watts max, dna200 (with only two 18650s to pull from) will cap out at 133 watts max... if you are running same build at same wattage, since they are regulated, battery life should be almost identical - only real difference is that the 133 can go up to 133... (batteries run in series providing board with higher potential voltage...)

THANK YOU!! So the answer is, With it being regulated, it doesnt make a difference, 2 cells are 2 cells??..

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

I have the TC100W from Eleaf, which is one of the very few parallel mods out there. With the firmware update it runs up to 120W.

My experience is: dual batteries being run in parallel has equaled about 4 times the battery life of about what a single battery mod goes for.

In other words, my single battery mod needs to have the battery switched about 4 times per day, while the dual parallel mod last me all day on a single charge.

I believe that it's due to the pull on the battery being divided, being a much lesser impact draw on the batteries, so they discharge a lot slower for it.

The difference with a mod that's a series type, the power is pushed through both batteries to close the circuit, so it would impact the batteries differently. Without doing an actual test, just the physics, means that you have much higher voltage, so wattage can be increased. The downside is that you will be wearing down the batteries a bit rougher if you do use it with high numbers.

But at 50W for both types, I don't believe that you'd see much of a difference at all, but note that the impact on the batteries will be different as the power is flowing through both of them, instead in individually as per in parallel, where the "load" in done via the chipset/controller towards each battery.

Personaly, I don't vape at high numbers, so I'd rather stick to parallel, and aside the TC100W, the Therion is the only mod out there that has been getting my interest. (I can't really think of any other mods out there at this time that is a parallel.)

 

[Completely Average]

SERIES IS BETTER THAN PARALLEL FOR BATTERY LIFE.


All other factors being equal, Series is more efficient than Parallel. In THEORY, both give the exact same battery life, but efficiency says Series is always better.

The math works like this:

Wh = mAh × V / 1000

So lets say you have two 3000 mAh 18650 batteries.

Series = Watt Hours (Wh) = 3000 X 8.4 / 1000
Wh = 25.2

Parallel = Watt Hours (Wh) = 6000 X 4.2 / 1000
Wh = 25.2

Both are identical in theory. But then you have to factor in efficiency. Assuming all other factors are equal, Series is always slightly more efficient than Parallel. The reason is that chips are more efficient at stepping down voltage than they are at boosting it. 8.4 volts reduced to 5 volts is more efficient than trying to boost 4.2 volts up to 5 volts.

Now, when it comes to the mods your talking about, you have to compare the chip efficiency. One is a DNA75 chip in parallel, the other is a DNA200 chip in series.

According to Evolv, the DNA75 chip is only 85% efficient, but the DNA200 chip is 97% efficient.
https://downloads.evolvapor.com/dna75.pdf (See Efficiency in the table)
https://downloads.evolvapor.com/dna200.pdf (See Efficiency in table)

Thus, the DNA200 chip in series is 12% more efficient than the DNA75 chip in parallel.

You'll get more battery life out of the Therion 133 which uses the DNA200 chip.

 

[VapeAddyct]

SERIES IS BETTER THAN PARALLEL FOR BATTERY LIFE.


All other factors being equal, Series is more efficient than Parallel. In THEORY, both give the exact same battery life, but efficiency says Series is always better.

The math works like this:

Wh = mAh × V / 1000

So lets say you have two 3000 mAh 18650 batteries.

Series = Watt Hours (Wh) = 3000 X 8.4 / 1000
Wh = 25.2

Parallel = Watt Hours (Wh) = 6000 X 4.2 / 1000
Wh = 25.2

Both are identical in theory. But then you have to factor in efficiency. Assuming all other factors are equal, Series is always slightly more efficient than Parallel. The reason is that chips are more efficient at stepping down voltage than they are at boosting it. 8.4 volts reduced to 5 volts is more efficient than trying to boost 4.2 volts up to 5 volts.

Now, when it comes to the mods your talking about, you have to compare the chip efficiency. One is a DNA75 chip in parallel, the other is a DNA200 chip in series.

According to Evolv, the DNA75 chip is only 85% efficient, but the DNA200 chip is 97% efficient.
https://downloads.evolvapor.com/dna75.pdf (See Efficiency in the table)
https://downloads.evolvapor.com/dna200.pdf (See Efficiency in table)

Thus, the DNA200 chip in series is 12% more efficient than the DNA75 chip in parallel.

You'll get more battery life out of the Therion 133 which uses the DNA200 chip.

THANK YOU BROTHER!!! Not only did you answer my question, but you helped me to understand it!! If you ever need anything, DO NOT HESITATE TO ASK ME BROTHER!!

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

I'd recommend you read this thread to really get an understanding of the differences:

These two posts in particular:
Regulated Parallel Box Mod?

Regulated Parallel Box Mod?

 

[mcclintock]

Both are identical in theory. But then you have to factor in efficiency. Assuming all other factors are equal, Series is always slightly more efficient than Parallel. The reason is that chips are more efficient at stepping down voltage than they are at boosting it. 8.4 volts reduced to 5 volts is more efficient than trying to boost 4.2 volts up to 5 volts.

I think you generally have it right, but try a different example and I'm not so sure: outputting less than 4.2 or even 3.7 volts. I definitely know that outputting 9 watts at 2.6 V (.6Ω) is less efficient than 14 watts at 4.2 volts on my istick 30, I can feel the heat coming out (this question is interesting to me in theory only). Taking 8.4 V down to 2.6 might be even less efficient, but any such low output is going to be less efficient. Seems to me any time the output is close to the actual battery voltage, this is going to be efficient. Step down also should have filtering on the battery side to turn high current pulses into a steady flow, when stepping down voltage.

All that said, any TC mod should be great at step-down, with the low resistance coil materials especially nickel.

 

[Completely Average]

I think you generally have it right, but try a different example and I'm not so sure: outputting less than 4.2 or even 3.7 volts. I definitely know that outputting 9 watts at 2.6 V (.6Ω) is less efficient than 14 watts at 4.2 volts on my istick 30, I can feel the heat coming out (this question is interesting to me in theory only). Taking 8.4 V down to 2.6 might be even less efficient, but any such low output is going to be less efficient. Seems to me any time the output is close to the actual battery voltage, this is going to be efficient. Step down also should have filtering on the battery side to turn high current pulses into a steady flow, when stepping down voltage.

What you're outputting is irrelevant to what I said. And for the record, how much heat you produce at a given wattage has NOTHING to do with efficiency. If you're not producing more heat with higher wattage then you've got a broken mod. Again, that has NOTHING to do with efficiency, that's simple physics. More watts through the same coil produces more heat. It always does.

I'm talking about BATTERY LIFE, not battery usage. Obviously using more current will drain a battery faster than using less current, even in a single battery system. If you have two identical batteries with the same charge and you're drawing 2V from one and 3V from the other, guess what, the one you're drawing 3V from will drain faster.

But that makes ZERO difference to what I said.

All factors being equal, a Series mod is more efficient than a parallel mod, every single time, there are no exceptions. PERIOD.

 

[Eskie]

Ah, just to throw this out there, but you should know they are preparing to release a Therion 166 shortly which will be the new DNA 250 chip (166 2 bat/250 3 bat). Other than the few extra watts (I'm never that high but maybe someone is) a significant difference is the 250 board will offer 2A balanced recharging rather than the 1A currently on a 200 board. Also, according to the spec sheet from Evolv, the DNA 250 will offer reverse polarity protection, something the DNA 200 did only with an optional daughter board. So you might want to wait on that purchase a tad longer.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

All factors being equal, a Series mod is more efficient than a parallel mod, every single time, there are no exceptions. PERIOD.

The one question I'd have about this:

So why exactly do manufacturers use batteries in parallel in every device instead of just going for larger sized ones.

Laptops, electric cars comes to mind.

And these actually use 18650 batteries setup.

From everything I remember from my electronics classes and experiences, unless you need the higher voltage, it's always better to be in parallel if it's about battery life, always. As I vape under the voltage range, there is no "chip intervention/conversion" so I'm simply pulling at a much lower Amp, so a lot less stress on the batteries.

 

[Completely Average]

The one question I'd have about this:

So why exactly do manufacturers use batteries in parallel in every device instead of just going for larger sized ones.

Laptops, electric cars comes to mind.

And these actually use 18650 batteries setup.

From everything I remember from my electronics classes and experiences, unless you need the higher voltage, it's always better to be in parallel if it's about battery life, always. As I vape under the voltage range, there is no "chip intervention/conversion" so I'm simply pulling at a much lower Amp, so a lot less stress on the batteries.

You answered your own question. Voltage.

If all you need is 3.7V as your nominal voltage and you're building a battery pack of 10 batteries, it doesn't make sense to build a battery pack that is 37 volts. You run the batteries in parallel instead.

My comments are specifically in regards to vaping mods where the voltage is routinely either Bucked (reduced) or Boosted to a setting other than what the battery provides. Other devices are built around their voltage requirements and build battery packs that best suit their voltage needs. for example, most cordless power tools will run their batteries in series because they're usually running at 12V to 18V.


And if you're running a regulated mod then choosing a lower voltage range does not necessarily reduce the amps. The chip in your mod is going to draw a set amount of volts and then either buck or boost that to your needs. Even if you lower your voltage the chip still requires a minimum voltage and minimum amperage to run. If you scroll back up and click on the link to the DNA chip tech sheet I posted earlier you'll see that they have a different input voltage requirement than their output voltage. In the case of the DNA200 it requires a minimum of 9V just to run. The mod will not run if the input voltage is less than 9V.

(*NOTE: The DNA200 can actually run with just 6V input voltage from 2 batteries, but that limits the chip to 133W instead of 200W, which is why the two 18650 battery DNA200 mods are limited to 133W.)

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

My comments are specifically in regards to vaping mods where the voltage is routinely either Bucked (reduced) or Boosted to a setting other than what the battery provides. Other devices are built around their voltage requirements and build battery packs that best suit their voltage needs. for example, most cordless power tools will run their batteries in series because they're usually running at 12V to 18V.

ok.. that wasn't clear the way you stated .. "All factors being equal, a Series mod is more efficient than a parallel mod, every single time, there are no exceptions. PERIOD."

Which could lead to confusion for someone reading it out of context.

We're 100% in agreement then!

 

[mcclintock]

What you're outputting is irrelevant to what I said. And for the record, how much heat you produce at a given wattage has NOTHING to do with efficiency. If you're not producing more heat with higher wattage then you've got a broken mod. Again, that has NOTHING to do with efficiency, that's simple physics. More watts through the same coil produces more heat. It always does.

I said 9 watts heated the mod more than 14, not the other way around. The mod was always happier driving a higher resistance even when it required boosting the voltage. And when the mod produces heat, that's waste, where else would it go? Yes this is different than what you were talking about. I get it, series works with less current on the battery side which should reduce some losses, but when the highest currents and losses are on the load side it doesn't make a big difference. And as long as typical outputs are near a single cell voltage or TC which is even lower, I don't think you can say a single theoretical advantage assures higher efficiency when it comes to specific circuit design.

One thing series can get you is if you get rid of the boost circuit entirely, simplifying circuitry.

 

[Completely Average]

I said 9 watts heated the mod more than 14, not the other way around.

It does not matter what you said, it has NOTHING to do with this conversation.

Which is your istick? Parallel or Series?

It's neither, it's a single battery mod. Thus, it has NOTHING to do with this whatsoever, does it?