Thoughts on B&M's, Clones and Pricing

[tinkrrrbell]

All of your employees are not going to know everything on day one, it's true. However, if your employees try to sell someone a 510 drip tip for their CE4 without an adapter, or cannot explain the difference between a ego-C and a Spinner, you might want to hold a training class.

If you are at a store that's selling clones for redic prices, call them on it. They might not even know, obviously. They need a markup - I took economics, I understand supply and demand and I know what overhead is. There's a difference between running a profitable business and running a profitable business using shady practices. I'm not sure about everywhere else, but the vape community here in my area is very organized and tight knit and if we know a store might not be on the up and up, it doesn't stay a secret for long.

 

[bluecat]

I can understand the cost of food being higher than it would be if you were to do it yourself simply because you're paying someone else to take the time to properly prepare the food for you and if it's not right, you can send it back. At those prices, I'd say a professional chef or their sous chef is the one taking care of your meal making sure everything is presented correctly and the balance is there.

In the case of this B&M, there's no personal touch or service for the $60 price-tag on the Nemesis Clone (which isn't labeled as a clone - it's labeled as if it's the real deal). If you buy it, they can't help you with it so you're on your own - so if you're new to vaping and you just bought this based on them saying "oh this is cool, this is what I'd buy if I was in the market", you may be SOL. I even asked if the 18650 batteries they were selling were protected or not, and the answer was I don't know.

To answer a previous question, this store has been open more than a few months and from what I hear, they are looking to expand another 1-2 stores here in the next 1-2 years, if not sooner. So being new, for them, is out of the question.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. I got my nemy clone for 30 bucks which would be 2x the cost. I got it basically direct and had to wait 2 weeks. It has an issues now at least 4 weeks total till I get the replacement. I am fine with that for 30 buck clone. For 60, I would expect getting it at the store and them to replace or issue a refund when I came back into the store. I do not know their business model but most markups are 2 to 3 x at any store. Some items may be a little lower to draw you in, but that is marketing.

The biggest culprits of the markups.. wages..space... Yes, maybe you are correct restaurant may be a bad example.

 

[TyPie]

Good help is hard to find, no matter what type of retail store.

I think there are a few different shopper profiles we are talking about here: those knowing what they want or need, and those that may be curious but know little about what they want or need.

I needed a washing machine a few weeks ago, and I had to go in somewhat blind, not having a lot of time for research. The salesman there at a Sears, actually 'sold' me on a particular machine, as he really knew his stuff. I was nervous, as I knew doodly-squat about the latest and greatest in washing machine technology. (They are pretty amazing, if you haven't looked in a while. LOL) I would have preferred doing some preliminary research first.

For smaller-ticket items like ecigs, juices and supplies, I really don't expect that kind of extensive product knowledge. The bigger-ticket washing machine guy probably makes a good deal more money than the retail sales clerk, so I would expect more.

Always best to be an educated consumer in this day and age, no matter where you shop or what you are shopping for. I usually shop knowing what I need and what I am looking for, having done some minimal research beforehand. (As opposed to walking into a store, not knowing anything, and needing to be 'sold' on something.) Knowledge is power.....

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. I got my nemy clone for 30 bucks which would be 2x the cost. I got it basically direct and had to wait 2 weeks. It has an issues now at least 4 weeks total till I get the replacement. I am fine with that for 30 buck clone. For 60, I would expect getting it at the store and them to replace or issue a refund when I came back into the store. I do not know their business model but most markups are 2 to 3 x at any store. Some items may be a little lower to draw you in, but that is marketing.

The biggest culprits of the markups.. wages..space... Yes, maybe you are correct restaurant may be a bad example.

The bad thing is, most B&M's are no refunds, no exchanges. This just so happens to be one of them. The only "warranty" they offer is on batteries, so it'd have to be an eGO, iTaste MVP or iTaste VV/VW v3 to even fall into that category. The Nemesis Clone would be outside that warranty, so DOA or any other issues with the device means you're SOL.

That said, if they are, as I suspect, simply ordering from FastTech and upping the margins well above what they should, FastTech has a warrant 3x that on any device. In such a case, they're simply not wanting to fool with the hassle of shipping anything back.

Good help is hard to find, no matter what type of retail store.

I think there are a few different shopper profiles we are talking about here: those knowing what they want or need, and those that may be curious but know little about what they want or need.

I needed a washing machine a few weeks ago, and I had to go in somewhat blind, not having a lot of time for research. The salesman there at a Sears, actually 'sold' me on a particular machine, as he really knew his stuff. I was nervous, as I knew doodly-squat about the latest and greatest in washing machine technology. (They are pretty amazing, if you haven't looked in a while. LOL) I would have preferred doing some preliminary research first.

For smaller-ticket items like ecigs, juices and supplies, I really don't expect that kind of extensive product knowledge. The bigger-ticket washing machine guy probably makes a good deal more money than the retail sales clerk, so I would expect more.

Always best to be an educated consumer in this day and age, no matter where you shop or what you are shopping for. I usually shop knowing what I need and what I am looking for, having done some minimal research beforehand. (As opposed to walking into a store, not knowing anything, and needing to be 'sold' on something.) Knowledge is power.....

I fully agree on both good help being hard to find and that knowledge is power however, and unfortunately, not everyone has the means to research or time and much like yourself and the washing machine, many people go based off what is suggested to them. You, like I, would prefer to do research before we buy and just as I do, I'm sure 99% of the time you do. Others don't or can't, and it's a setup for disaster on both ends.

 

[Jayvaps]

I fully agree on both good help being hard to find and that knowledge is power however, and unfortunately, not everyone has the means to research or time and much like yourself and the washing machine, many people go based off what is suggested to them. You, like I, would prefer to do research before we buy and just as I do, I'm sure 99% of the time you do. Others don't or can't, and it's a setup for disaster on both ends.

Meh. I think the people that post here are not the normal vaper. We know much more than the average vaper. I have friends that are just fine with 1 ego battery, a clearo, and some juice from 1 vendor.

I spoke to a girl at my hair dresser the other day who said she had bought a kit a few weeks ago from a B&M that I have visited before(not a bad place, but I did not like their flavors) and it was working amazingly for her. I asked her what sized batteries she had, 650, 900? And she looked at me with a glazed look. Not every customer is as demanding as someone with the knowledge we have. We are NOT the norm, and for most consumers, knowing how to fill up a clearo and turn on the battery and charge it is enough. Most places that sell mechs and rebuildable supplies probably carry them for the people 'that know and have done their research'. If I saw a place trying to push something more advanced than an ego onto a new vaper...THEN I would be concerned. But not if they just dont have all the knowledge at their fingertips. Heck, where did you find out your wealth of information? I am betting you found it out here or other sources of info, not from a B&M. And that is to be expected.

IOW, I think your expectations are too high.

 

[toughguitar]

I think a lot of people are spoiled because of Fasttech. They purchase these products at great prices and get the products with free shipping. If you check into the costs of getting goods from China those great prices become just OK prices. Paying shipping costs to get large orders sent can be expensive. People will take notice when they want to get juice or batteries sent from China.After all these costs, $40-$60 for a clone is not that unreasonable.Most people understand the overhead involved in keeping a shop operating, and will be willing to pay for convenience of being able to see and handle a product before purchase.
The lack of knowledge of employees in B&M's can't fall on them only. The owner should be responsible to give his employees at least the basic knowledge of what they are selling. I would bet in some cases the owner would be as clueless as their employees.

 

[Barbara21]

High prices, mediocre juice - that's one thing. But dangerous practices is another.

I have only one *local* store (within 20 miles). Like most, they sell mainly egos and juice. But they had a couple of basic vv mods and a bolt (all clones). What bothered me is that they carried only 'unprotected' batteries (not IMR). I don't claim to be an expert on mods but it was my understanding that you need unprotected batteries for the vv stuff but a straight mech (like the bolt) requires a protected battery. (Again, these were not IMR batteries.) When I asked about protected vs unprotected batteries for the bolt, the clerk dismissed everything I said by saying these were good batteries and I had nothing to worry about, etc. etc.

 

[ncvapfan]

These places for the most part are designed to make all the money on juice. Most customers coming in at this point of vaping are relatively new and want something close to as easy as lighting a cigarette.
ECF members are far beyond 90% of B+M customers (and often employees) in knowledge. To most its a habit to us its as much a hobby The parts that are unacceptable 1- selling clones as originals 2- selling mechs to newbs. I'm really surprised this hasn't gotten vaping some very bad press. Most B+Ms I have visited do try to talk inexperienced people out of mechs. I worry someone will say hey that looks freaking cool and I want it regardless of what you say....then blows their face off. That would put a real stink on our world.

 

[madqatter]

I think this is the challenge when opening a new store.. finding someone with experience and knowledge of the hardware is not easy.... There are no training classes as far as I know from suppliers that cover what you need to know.. not to mention there are new products hitting the market all the time....

This would be like walking into a car dealership and starting asking about the engine on some cars. Some of the sales people will know the answer, some won't, and some will just make garbage up. Really no difference. And just like with the car dealership, the vast majority of customers are not very knowledgable, so the sales people don't need to be either.

Would it be great if every employee of a B&M knew everything? Sure, but it ain't gonna happen. Most B&M's make the vast majority of their sales as ego type batteries Clearos and overpriced juice.

I think the people that post here are not the normal vaper. We know much more than the average vaper. I have friends that are just fine with 1 ego battery, a clearo, and some juice from 1 vendor.... Not every customer is as demanding as someone with the knowledge we have. We are NOT the norm, and for most consumers, knowing how to fill up a clearo and turn on the battery and charge it is enough. Most places that sell mechs and rebuildable supplies probably carry them for the people 'that know and have done their research'. If I saw a place trying to push something more advanced than an ego onto a new vaper...THEN I would be concerned. But not if they just dont have all the knowledge at their fingertips. Heck, where did you find out your wealth of information? I am betting you found it out here or other sources of info, not from a B&M.

I agree with all of the above.

If I go to a gun shop that deals exclusively in guns and ask them where their AR-15's are, which is better of the ones they have / why, how's it work and what ammo does it take and they can't tell me any of that information, I'd honestly wonder why they're even in business and why they hired such inexperienced staff.

People have been horribly injured by using the wrong ammo in a firearm just as they could potentially be horribly injured with a mod/mech and no upfront knowledge from the vendor selling them a battery that may or may not be right for that specific product.

I definitely understand what you're saying here. I agree that this would be unforgivable in a gun shop and I agree that it's also very dangerous in a vape shop. But I would like to point back to my original post: I think it's difficult for many of these stores to find experienced and knowledgeable employees to begin with, and even those with experience and knowledge may be limited by other factors.

One of the huge differences between gun and vape shops is that gun shops have a much larger pool of experienced gun owners and/or users to hire from. There are, furthermore, many gun safety, maintenance, and use training programs in which potential and actual employees may participate. If you're hiring for a vape shop, however, you're much more likely be stuck with a pool of potential employees who barely know anything about vaping. There are more guns per capita in the United States than any other nation in the world, but vaping-- even including vaping cigalikes and eGos-- is still very much a niche activity.

 

[bluecat]

Sad if they won't refund the money. I would not put my foot in the door of a place that will not refund the money regardless of products of any type. I will say I have never been in a vape store. I find no reason too. The closest one to me in 40-50 miles. I had an urge to go once, but it passed quickly.

I also enjoy Njoys from Walgreens and the White Clouds... There is still something for the form factor that I enjoy. The liquid isn't bad. Too expensive for me though.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Perhaps my expectations or too high, or perhaps I simply take my job more seriously that the majority of people I encounter on a daily basis and by that I mean, if I don't know something and it applies to my job, I read about it and soak up all the information my brain can handle. I would think the same would/should apply to a job at a vape store. If they don't know anything more than how to use an eGO, they should learn and take initiative so they can help those that walk in. Or, perhaps they should have found another job.

Maybe I've hired too many people in the past and my expectations for employees either knowing what their job entails, or having a capacity for learning beyond just simple basics. If they were all just eGO users and they were satisfied there, I'd understand, but the employees are typically using SVD's, MVP's, and one of them does have a mech, but ask them anything about what they're using and it's as if the light dims out and "um..it turns on when I press a button" is the look I get .

I'll admit I demand more - I did when I was a manager elsewhere and I do now as well. Perhaps I'm the exception to their normal client base (or the normal client base of most shops).


But I will give a shout out to Vintage Vapors in Knoxville, TN - I walked in there 3 days before they opened and in a 30-40 minute visit, they asked more questions about my setup, what I liked/disliked, what type of juice I was in to, if I'd like to try theirs, and that I could expect some really nice mods, true mods (i.e. custom builds), and vaping gear very soon and that they'd love to have me back - now that's a vape shop. If all shops cared even 1/2 as much as 2 guys there did, nobody would run into these issues.

 

[xtwosm0kesx]

Visit enough Vape shops and it quickly becomes apparent that 3/4 of ECF members are more informed than the vast majority of vape shop employees.

The stuff i've heard told to customers at my closest shop has literally made me cringe, takes everything in my power to keep my mouth shut when im in there.

 

[madqatter]

Visit enough Vape shops and it quickly becomes apparent that 3/4 of ECF members are more informed than the vast majority of vape shop employees.

The stuff i've heard told to customers at my closest shop has literally made me cringe, takes everything in my power to keep my mouth shut when im in there.

I still consider myself an uninformed noob in ECF terms, but I often get the feeling even I know more than folks in some of the B&Ms I visit.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Visit enough Vape shops and it quickly becomes apparent that 3/4 of ECF members are more informed than the vast majority of vape shop employees.

The stuff i've heard told to customers at my closest shop has literally made me cringe, takes everything in my power to keep my mouth shut when im in there.

I agree and I've been in the same position. I did spark up a conversation with one once he walked away. He walked out with an SVD instead of a mech, which is what was suggested to him. He thanked me and we've kept in touch since. He's actually getting into mechs now after about 6 months of vaping and I'm going to show him how to do micro coils. So it's not all bad. If I can help someone, I will. I didn't end up killing their business - they still made money (more than they were going to on the mech), but they just couldn't service his needs or answer his questions so I wanted to help.

 

[dmska]

Seems like most shops aren't trying to cater to vapers who frequent ecf. The knowledge we can pick up here if we try is more than most casual vapers. However, I think most shops are geared towards new converts, or people looking to make the switch. As long as employees have a basic working knowledge they can handle most of the questions they would get.

 

[K_Tech]

Visit enough Vape shops and it quickly becomes apparent that 3/4 of ECF members are more informed than the vast majority of vape shop employees.

I'm not specifically directing this at you, but I wanted to quote you because you made the same point several others have.

I've been vaping for (looks down at banner) 64 days. I don't do this for a living, it's just a hobby. I certainly don't know everything (nor will I ever) but I at least know the difference between a cartomizer and an RDA, and I'd expect an employee with a few months under his/her belt to know at least that much. I'd not expect them to be able to tell me everything about rebuilding a dripper, but they should be able to tell me that it IS a dripper, if that makes sense.

Someone brought up the comparison to an auto dealer. Sure, I don't expect my salesman to know how an internal combustion engine works or how the air/fuel ratio is controlled under different driving conditions, but that salesman should be able to tell me if a car has a gas or diesel engine and where the spare tire is located.

Kind of like Eric at Discount Vapers. If he doesn't know anything about a particular product, he'll come right out and state it on the page, but he at least knows how to categorize what he sells properly.

I'd expect the same of a B&M employee after a few weeks, at least.

 

[Rocketpunk]

I don't expect every employee to know every minute detail about every single item in the shop, especially when this specific shop seems to vary their product line-up quite often, but when the experience level starts and stops with an eGO or eGO Twist, how can you honestly sell an RBA let alone a mod?

Let's say I'm a new customer. I'm new to vaping, but I don't like the look or feel of the eGO and I want to start with something better that I won't have to move away from anytime soon. Naturally, a mod is the next logical step up. Now if you can't tell me the difference between the mods you're selling (regulated, mech, mech with a kick etc), what RBA you think is best or why I should start with a Protank, what I need to do to get it to work and if there's anything extra I need to know upfront (i.e. your new, sub-ohm probably isn't the best place to start - battery dangers etc), then how can you honestly sell me anything more than an eGO?

First of all, if you're a noob and new to vaping, I seriously doubt you're going to think an eGo is small potatoes. Do you know how many times people come in expecting a Blu-type thingie, and when we show them a 1000 mAh Twist their eyes about pop out of their head? "That thing is HUGE!" To expect a noob to buy a mod straight off the bat is silly. Especially when the majority of them are interested in vaping not only because of health concerns but because it's cheaper than smoking. They want a starter kit, not a $100+ mod. Why would you try to sell me a .45 when all I really want is a .22?

Second of all, if you're a noob, I'm MOST DEFINITELY NOT going to recommend a mod, much less an RBA. I mean, if you want to ball like a baller and want to drop major flowage on a huge mod and costly set up, I'm not going to not take your money. But I'll also warn you NUMEROUS times you're probably biting off more than you can chew and to start a little slower. I would never, ever, ever recommend any kind of RBA, I don't care what kind, to a noob.

I can rattle off to you the specs of almost every major regulated mod on the market, be they Smok, Innokin, whatever. Box mods, also. But when it comes to mech mods and batteries... Trust me, man, I know enough about them to know they are totally not the kind of vaping experience I look for. And I see and handle them every day. I know all the different real and cloned versions, the names, blah blah blah, the components they're made of, the machining, et al., but I don't drool over them. But that's just me. Good thing is, there are people I can refer those interested in mech mods, rebuildables, and sub-ohm to instead of going, "Uh....................."

What some people into mechs and rebuildables forget is the VAST majority of vapers use egos or well-known mods. You guys, chasing these mechs and clones and rba/rda/rssts, you represent the VAST minority of vaping. Sometimes, if us veterans don't know everything you rebuildable folks do, it could probably be because we just don't care.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I can appreciate that the vast majority that walk into a vape shop don't honestly care about sub-ohms, mods, having to deal with an actual battery, a battery charger, amps etc. The people that don't care aren't exactly the ones I'm talking about here, but that doesn't excuse an employee from not being able to 1). Tell me about what they're selling or 2). Get someone who does know.

If this was a new vape shop, I'd understand a little more, but we're talking 6+ months and they had an online presence before they were in a physical location. The owner is nice, I'll give him that, but perhaps that's a weakness on his part as it's trickled down to the interview part of the job and he's hired people who just want to vape on the job because they can't do it elsewhere.

Again, I don't expect employees to be as knowledgeable as someone here on ECF with 10,000 posts under their belt. That's unrealistic, but if they do, awesome! I do however, expect that they know about the products in the shop they work in. That's all .

I don't expect them to know 100% of everything about everything - just tell me what you do know (which should definitely be more than absolutely nothing), or find me someone who can without me having to ask.

 

[Rocketpunk]

Tactical, you're lucky to at least have Vintage Vapors and MOV relatively near you. I hear Steve Nair does regular coil-building sessions at MOV.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I've not had the chance to visit MOV, unfortunately. I've heard they're awesome, but just not made it off in that direction. Now VV, I could see me visiting them quite often if it wasn't a 2 hour drive. Their juice is amazing, the employees care - and it shows as soon as you walk in and above all, they are not your typical vape shop. This is a custom shop with custom mods + real mods (i.e. steampunk mods) and custom walls to foam cut-outs. All-in-All, it's a fun place to be. It's not huge, but it doesn't need to be.

Needless to say, they've spent some money and it shows. I can't fault them at all. Heck, they let me in before they were even open, sold me some juice and told me to get back down soon.