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TPD Article 20 section 5.d: Does this make my future presence on ECF illegal?

Discussion in 'EU Legislation' started by FourWinds, Mar 3, 2014.

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  1. FourWinds

    FourWinds Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 30, 2014
    Most of you will have read Article 20 by now. If not you should; you can read it here: Updated info post: TPD – provisions relating to e-cigarettes « The counterfactual

    Section 5 of the shining document is concerned with stopping people having any information about e-cigs from just about anywhere it seems; again, if you didn't read it DO SO NOW.

    5.d) is what this post is about. It says:

    d) any form of public or private contribution to any event, activity or individual person with the aim or direct or indirect effect of promoting electronic cigarettes and refill containers and involving or taking place in several Member States or otherwise having cross-border effects is prohibited;

    To me this means that in the future it will be illegal for me to even discuss e-cigs here in positive fashion. Do you guys read it the same way?
  2. low_tar_neil

    low_tar_neil ECF Tea-boy, guy Admin ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2008
    Nah you're alright, our servers are in the US :)
  3. FourWinds

    FourWinds Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 30, 2014
    But it's talking about 'my' communications, and not where the servers are. I hope you're correct, but I'm not reading it the way you are.
  4. AgentAnia

    AgentAnia Resting In Peace ECF Veteran

    May 22, 2013
    Orbiting Sirius B
    This is the part that disturbs me. They don't specify *which* borders.
  5. makeyourself

    makeyourself Senior Member

    Jan 4, 2014
    United Kingdom
    They cannot stop people discussing the issue, it would be a clear violation of freedom of expression under the European Convention of Human Rights (although the current UK government wants out of that for obvious reasons). The wording is very dodgy admittedly, I'm not sure whether its intentionally dodgy though. It may have been intended to mean commercial promotion as that is what the whole of section 5 relates to although that's obviously far from clear. Its more important how the member states actually interpret it when translating it into national law of course.

    If they did bring out a law banning people talking about, which in all honesty I doubt they will, I think it would backfire on them stupendously.
  6. Anjaffm

    Anjaffm Dragon Lady ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 12, 2013
    There is such a thing as the Constitution of the member states, as well.
    In Germany, citizens have a right to free speech / freedom of expression. This is guaranteed by the Constitution (Grundgesetz) of my country. The only exception is that it is forbidden to make statements supporting a N*zi position, in the open.

    An EU product directive (!) that makes it a crime (!) for private citizens to speak or write about a perfectly legal product (!) does not have an ice cube's chance in h** . I do not know whether the member states would be stupid enough to even try to enact parts of a product directive that go directly against the constitution. But even if they try, that nonsense will not stand up in court.

    Try to drag a few vapers from a vapers meeting into jail for daring to speak (!) about a perfectly legal product - and you will have a constitutional lawsuit with several plaintiffs the next day.

    .. Oh, and do not try to start with this "cross-border effect" nonsense.
    As most citizens of the EU countries know, we have freedom of movement from one EU country to the next. So there is nothing - I repeat: nothing - stopping a, say, French, British, Austrian etc person from coming to Germany and participating in a conversation.

    Same with forums. Yeah, control the internet - so only people from country A can join a forum in country A.

    Not an ice cube's chance in h***.

    Drag me to court for posting in a forum on a perfectly legal product (!) and you will have a lawsuit on your hands the very next day.
  7. FourWinds

    FourWinds Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 30, 2014
    Yeah, I'm sure you're all correct and it's not meant to be applied to individuals.
  8. Anjaffm

    Anjaffm Dragon Lady ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 12, 2013
    Oh, it may be MEANT to be applied to individuals. I do not trust the EU as far as I can throw their most corrupt politician.
    BUT - that does not mean that it CAN BE applied to individuals. For the simple reason that individuals have rights, laid down in the Constitutions of their countries. And no product directive (!) by some unelected EU politicos can simply break the Constitution of sovereign and independent countries. Especially not where it applies to the constitutional rights of the citizens of said countries.

    And if they do try, the courts will have a field day striking such nonsense down as unconstitutional. :sneaky:
  9. tommy2bad

    tommy2bad Super Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 1, 2011
    It's legalize for commercial promotion, this bit is to make sponsorship or donating prizes or funding of anything at all if it promotes the use of ecigs. It dose not prohibit people talking to each other about ecigs, it dose however have implications for vendor forums.
    Basically once this is law we can talk and post about the 2 or 3 ecigs that are left on the market as long as no manufacture or vendor contributes financially or by way of donation of goods or services.
    I duno how much ECF depends on vendor contributions or charges made to vendors but thats now illegal. Well maybe not ecf as it's servers are outside the eu but ecf isnt the only forum. Oh and the reviewers on youtube are now going to have to buy the stuff they review as free samples will be considered contribution.
    This is a draconian imposition on something that is driven by pull, advertising may be considered pushed on the viewer/listener/reader but web sites have to be sought out.
  10. Vermonster13

    Vermonster13 Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 13, 2010
    Rutland, Vermont
    Appears if they make the refillables illegal then you EU folks aren't going to be able to have forums about them.
  11. Anjaffm

    Anjaffm Dragon Lady ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 12, 2013

    That is precisely their intention.
    And - we will see about that ....

    An EU product (!) directive forbidding that private citizens of sovereign countries exercise their constitutionally protected freedom of expression. In their own countries. Hm. Yes, we will see about that.
    The "Bundesverfassungsgericht" in my country (High Court dealing with lawsuits with reference to constitutional rights) would be asked to judge this matter. This would not be the first time where they have stopped politicos from overstepping their bounds. And yes, citizens can file such suits when their constitutional rights are infringed upon.

    This is not the (former) Eastern Bloc. And this is not the (former) Third Reich.
  12. navigator2011

    navigator2011 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 6, 2013
    Fullerton, CA, USA
    True, it is something entirely new, and it uses erosionary tactics. Same approach here in the U.S.
  13. mamamia

    mamamia Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 29, 2011
    A Board Member of our German consumers association (IG-ED e.V.) discussed this question with one of the German MEPs and he reassured us that the word "contribution" is relating to PAID contributions and not relating to normal discussions.

    From his lips to God's ears....

    Who will remember this "little difference" in a few years time? I strongly DISTRUST this whole administration now. Even stronger than before.
  14. Lucky1384

    Lucky1384 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 9, 2014
    Sheffield, UK
    I can't see how they can stop us posting on boards. Hell, what will happen if it all goes through and they spent so much time and money logging my posts, collecting evidence and working out what I'm using and what I own? I can't see them kicking my door down and locking me up.

    If I go to any decent newsagent in the city I will find Guns & Ammo magazines whole heartedly promoting handguns and how to use them in defensive situations, and I could post on similar boards to discuss them as I please. Having such handguns would get me 5 years behind bars, but I'm still free to pursue discussion and knowledge if I please.

    I'm not hurting anyone pursuing this enjoyable hobby and life extending alternative to smoking, so I will do as I please regardless. If that lands me into a legal circus, so be it!
  15. Glyn

    Glyn Full Member Verified Member

    Apr 28, 2014
    Wibbly Wobbly World
    It would be very laughable if they shut down all the EU based servers, as everyone would simply move to non-EU servers and then it's ok
  16. Anjaffm

    Anjaffm Dragon Lady ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 12, 2013
    I heard that "paid contribution" stuff too. And I do not believe a word of it. Politico-speak.... try to calm the rabble.. until the "regulation" goes into effect. And then let the cat out of the bag. Gotcha, stupid rabble.

    "Contribution" ("Beitrag" in German) can be a contribution of money OR - for example - any posting that you make in a forum, or any action that furthers a goal. Heck, if I bake a cake for a birthday party or recite a funny poem, I make a contribution to the party. It is not a legally defined term.

    I do not trust them as far as I can throw them. And they have done nothing whatsoever to earn any trust. On the contrary.
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